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Interlacing used to be an option in early fmv games or cutscenes to speed up playback without having the video sized down.
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Oct 18, 2016 02:24
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WebDog posted:Interlacing used to be an option in early fmv games or cutscenes to speed up playback without having the video sized down. And my first Win95 machine couldn't play Daytona USA properly. There was an interlace mode in the game settings which worked well, looked poo poo. But meant I could play it.
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Oct 18, 2016 04:35
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 seriously what the gently caress is this scan line poo poo. what were these TVs that looked like those fake-rear end CRT filters with not just visible scanlines but dark scanlines that are almost as thick as pixels.
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Oct 18, 2016 05:13
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Interlaced stuff never has black lines like that unless you force only one field, but why?. CRT monitors are progressive so any interlacing would have had Interline twitter. As I noted before FMV videos in early games used that kind of faux-interlacing to reduce memory load so it was faster to play back before video decoding really became widespread. It's basically halving the amount of lines it has to draw but unlike actual interlacing isn't switching between upper and lower at a hz cycle to give the illusion of a continuous image as that would look unsettling on most CRT screens. Console games are a bit more complex and in some cases slightly blur videos to remove any twittering when put on a progressive display or have two versions of the video on hand to swap out or do it via hardware. Interlacing is still used for broadcast over TV signals as it's less bandwidth to carry over and most HDTVs will de interlace the signal it in some way so it's not that noticeable.
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Oct 18, 2016 06:49
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Scanlines are real enough and yes, a lot of arcade games with CRTs actually do have them, due to the nature of their displays. But the end result depends a lot on the monitor. On a high quality broadcast monitor like the image on the left, it ends up looking kinda fake and excessive. The image on the right is from an actual arcade monitor that can properly handle the 15KHz progressive signal from an arcade board. Basically, it happens on all CRT displays whenever a progressive scan signal with less than the maximum vertical resolution is received. How severe the effect is depends on the display in question, particularly the difference between the received signal and the maximum vertical resolution. In the case of the broadcast monitor shown above, it has very high vertical resolution, 800 lines compared to a normal TV designed to show an NTSC image, which is specified as 483 visible lines. The arcade monitor has comparatively low vertical resolution, as it is designed specifically for displaying 240p or similar low-resolution images. I can force my old Bang & Olufsen TV into a progressive mode (240p) when hooking up older consoles, which will actually show scanlines. It looks just like I remember games like Golden Axe looking in the arcades with visible, but not dominating lines. As with everything, some people go totally over the top. To get the right look, it's much more important that the pixels bleed a little more horizontally than vertically, than it is to have visible scanlines. E: I took this picture of my TV. Unfortunately, I don't have any consoles hooked right now, but it does show how scanlines are supposed to look. Distinctly visible, but obviously not thick black lines.  That is a progressive scan signal generated by the TV itself, so there's no connection trickery or "scanline injection" going on. KozmoNaut has a new favorite as of 10:33 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 07:54
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Ho-lee poo poo. Finally caught up with this thread after I think like 1,5 years. Sadly forgot all those things I wanted to post about. 
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Oct 18, 2016 15:17
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SEKCobra posted:Ho-lee poo poo. Finally caught up with this thread after I think like 1,5 years. Sadly forgot all those things I wanted to post about. Human memory is failed technology.
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Oct 18, 2016 15:21
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lmao @ emulating broadcast monitors w/ aperture grilles. Only hyper dweebs had them and they are very much *not* how the game is supposed to look. People go down weird rabbit holes with emulation filters and end up reproducing ULTRA ACCURATE HIGH RESOLUTION poo poo that looks utterly wrong and hosed up.
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Oct 18, 2016 15:34
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The people who had them were game developers. Hyper dweebs sure but back in the day there were a lot of trinitrons in console game development. Those filters are trying to represent what the game developers saw when creating the game, the big drawback being that most displays nowadays can't hit the resolution and colour range to actually pull it off convincingly. 8k HDR OLEDs might do a better job of it.
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Oct 18, 2016 15:42
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Slanderer posted:since that picture lacks a reference for size perspective, I think the wikipedia comparison image of a Laserdisc and a DVD gets the point across a bit better
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Oct 18, 2016 16:00
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Slanderer posted:lmao @ emulating broadcast monitors w/ aperture grilles. Only hyper dweebs had them and they are very much *not* how the game is supposed to look. People go down weird rabbit holes with emulation filters and end up reproducing ULTRA ACCURATE HIGH RESOLUTION poo poo that looks utterly wrong and hosed up. Its the "These wooden volume knobs make this record sound better", but with more Super Mario.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:00
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SwissCM posted:The people who had them were game developers. Hyper dweebs sure but back in the day there were a lot of trinitrons in console game development. Those filters are trying to represent what the game developers saw when creating the game, the big drawback being that most displays nowadays can't hit the resolution and colour range to actually pull it off convincingly. No they didn't, dweeb.
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Oct 18, 2016 17:37
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Slanderer posted:No they didn't, dweeb. Tell me about your life in Japan during the 80s and 90s. Why are you in this thread exactly? You've contributed nothing. You haven't even explained why creating software to emulate how a CRT displays is inherently something to derive scorn. Are you always this angry about things that have zero effect on you? All you're doing is calling people dweebs in a thread dedicated talking about obselete tech. We are all dweebs. SCheeseman has a new favorite as of 18:07 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 17:45
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Man there's a lot of salt in this thread, can't we all just get along and talk about the Turbo button on our 386 towers and poo poo 
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Oct 18, 2016 18:10
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Kelp Me! posted:Man there's a lot of salt in this thread, can't we all just get along and talk about the Turbo button on our 386 towers and poo poo A friend of mine had one of these in some generic 486 thing and it crashed the PC in weird, unexpected ways every time. It seemed to cause some kind of memory corruption.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:14
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KozmoNaut posted:Unfortunately, Easymode doesn't handle pseudo-transparency and dithering very well, as in it doesn't even try to handle it correctly. A lot of Genesis/Mega Drive games use dithering and pseudo-transparency extensively, as the hardware couldn't do proper transparency, and had limited color depth. Neither does my Trinitron, oddly enough. I S-video modded my Genesis and the dithering examples you gave don't blend properly because the picture is now too sharp. So it's more accurate than you'd think. 
Zonekeeper has a new favorite as of 18:26 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 18:14
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Zonekeeper posted:Neither does my Trinitron, oddly enough. I S-video modded my Genesis and the dithering examples you gave don't blend properly because the picture is now too sharp. So it's more accurate than you'd think. The blurring is primarily caused by the video encoding chip in the Genesis rather than anything on the Display.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:16
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SwissCM posted:The blurring is primarily caused by the video encoding chip in the Genesis rather than anything on the Display. My S-Video signal is pulled directly from the video chip (the only added components are to amplify the signals). It's completely down to how lovely the composite output is.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:26
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SwissCM posted:Tell me about your life in Japan during the 80s and 90s. If you're admitting you're a dweeb, why are you getting mad about me saying that? Anyway, emulating CRTs is good and cool when you're not a sad dweeb who deludes themself into believing that Shigeru Miyamoto's original vision for Super Mario Bros. 3 involves a $10,000 broadcast monitor and somehow also an RGB mod to the NES, and setup their emulator's filters to mimic this abomination. If you are this kind of person, then I'd like to sell a $400 inert-gas filled triple-shielded S-Video cable that will given the true, authentic NES experience.
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Oct 18, 2016 18:36
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Slanderer posted:If you're admitting you're a dweeb, why are you getting mad about me saying that? Because you're being a dick I don't really care how anyone plays anything, people should be allowed to like viewing certain things certain ways whether they're intended by the original authors or not. I like most stuff scaled up to 3x and then downscaled to whatever the panel resolution is, it gives crisp results without any aliasing, though Genesis I prefer with a composite filter because that's roughly how it looked when I was growing up and in that case the developers and artists very much did design the art assets with the expectation that they would get butchered by the video encoder. Zonekeeper posted:My S-Video signal is pulled directly from the video chip (the only added components are to amplify the signals). It's completely down to how lovely the composite output is. It's whatever the chip does to multiplex the luma and chroma signals that does it. SCheeseman has a new favorite as of 19:09 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 18:56
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Zonekeeper posted:Neither does my Trinitron, oddly enough. I S-video modded my Genesis and the dithering examples you gave don't blend properly because the picture is now too sharp. So it's more accurate than you'd think. SwissCM posted:The blurring is primarily caused by the video encoding chip in the Genesis rather than anything on the Display. This is why I think stuff like the GTU-Famicom shader is so neat. You set the NES emulator to "raw" output, and the shader faithfully emulates the NES PPU chip to output the resulting NTSC image. The result is absolutely hideous, and thus very true to the original. 
KozmoNaut has a new favorite as of 20:18 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 20:12
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I just load up ZSNES and it looks fine and dandy. Ya'll nerds channeling the audiophiles delusion.
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Oct 18, 2016 21:00
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I keep a 51cm CRT for my old consoles, it's the only TV in my bedroom. It's decent enough that it has component video input which I use for my hacked wii, FTA TV set top box and DVD player. I was planning to buy an obsolete av receiver to convert s-video from older consoles up to component (the CRT doesn't have s-video input unfortunately). I was disappointed to find out my n64 is one of the coloured PAL versions that doesn't output s-video even with a hacked cable though  The image quality looks even more dreadful on this CRT in composite than a N64 usually looks.
Fo3 has a new favorite as of 21:05 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 21:02
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Johnny Aztec posted:I just load up ZSNES and it looks fine and dandy. Ya'll nerds channeling the audiophiles delusion. I’m not a fan of CRT filters, but there’s a critical difference here in that they do measurable things. I just disagree that the ways that they change the image are in general good things. Audiophile‐grade® cables are literally indistinguishable from coat hangers.
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Oct 18, 2016 21:12
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Platystemon posted:I’m not a fan of CRT filters, but there’s a critical difference here in that they do measurable things. I just disagree that the ways that they change the image are in general good things. Obviously it's going to look like poo poo if you overdo it, but if you're not too heavy-handed, it can enhance the look of low-resolution pixel graphics, similar to how the artists intended it to look on a CRT.     In these pictures, the filtering breaks up the hard-edged surfaces on Samus' armor and makes it look almost 3D. In my opinion, a well-balanced filter can take a game from looking like a half-assed celshaded cartoon, with seemingly-random pixels here and there, to a smoother presentation that looks higher resolution than it actually is. Especially at a reasonable viewing distance, rather than right up in your face on a computer monitor. Of course, it's also possible to use one of the many modern pixel art upscaling algorithms, such as 2xSaI.   They tend to work quite well on simplistic graphics, but already with Super Metroid it starts to get a bit 'blobby', and there is some noticeable jiggling and wobbling when in motion, that tends to look rather unsettling. They're a lot better for static images than they are for animations. You can even see some errors around Samus' legs, where the filter starts to blend the leg armor into the background, because the colors are too close to each other. KozmoNaut has a new favorite as of 22:18 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 22:14
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Here's what waifu2x does with metroid (original image rescaled x2, then waifu no noise reduction/ medium noise reduction / highest noise reduction)
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Oct 18, 2016 22:27
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Tunicate posted:Here's what waifu2x does with metroid (original image rescaled x2, then waifu no noise reduction/ medium noise reduction / highest noise reduction) I normally absolutely hate shaders like this, but that... really is not a bad look at all. I mean I'm still a scanline guy, but I might try that with some games tonight, curious what it looks like in other things.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:30
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You just posted the same image 4 times. Channeling the audiophiles delusion.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:36
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Code Jockey posted:I normally absolutely hate shaders like this, but that... really is not a bad look at all. Not sure anyone has waifu working with an emulator yet. It's one of those deep learning neural networks (like the Prisma app or Deep Forger), but instead of being trained to turn everything into slugdogs or Van Gogh, it's been trained exclusively to resize anime. That said it works pretty well on pixel art, and works better on good pixel art.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:38
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I have to laugh at people arguing over the proper way to represent the low-tech amusements of my youth on their 8k wall-size LCDs.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:39
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We're nerds, that's what we do.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:43
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Dick Trauma posted:I have to laugh at people arguing over the proper way to represent the low-tech amusements of my youth on their 8k wall-size LCDs. Judging by how differently many re-releases handle this kind of stuff, so do developers.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:46
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You guys need to put that effort into making a good controller for Tempest. EDIT: D'OH! https://www.ultimarc.com/SpinTrak.html Dick Trauma has a new favorite as of 23:08 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 22:54
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Dick Trauma posted:You guys need to put that effort into making a good controller for Tempest. post the knobfeel review
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Oct 18, 2016 23:28
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Speaking of displaying vector games properly...
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Oct 18, 2016 23:30
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carry on then posted:post the knobfeel review 
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Oct 18, 2016 23:30
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SwissCM posted:Speaking of displaying vector games properly... Use a high‐pixel‐density monitor, call it “good enough”? BRB, updating phosphor persistence curves.
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Oct 18, 2016 23:37
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SwissCM posted:Speaking of displaying vector games properly...
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Oct 18, 2016 23:39
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That's built in to most vectrex emulators now. It's close to necessary for some games, marginally useful for others and just decoration for the rest. High density OLEDs could do a good enough job of emulating the general look, as it stands a standard LCD doesn't really come close to being able to replicate it. They're really bright.
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Oct 18, 2016 23:42
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personally I think sharp pixels look better than boiled, blurred poo poo CRT soup
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Oct 19, 2016 00:39
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