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Scratch-O posted:Really, dude? I fail to see how "selling a literally half-finished game that is presented as complete" is, in any way, not a scam.
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Nov 15, 2016 23:20
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Even if you stretched pretty far, the Broken Age and Massive Chalice kickstarters weren't scams and ultimately produced finished products [unlike Godus].
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Nov 15, 2016 23:38
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I liked Massive Chalice, I mean, I got it for free but
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Nov 16, 2016 00:01
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Great Rumbler posted:Even if you stretched pretty far, the Broken Age and Massive Chalice kickstarters weren't scams and ultimately produced finished products [unlike Godus]. I'm not talking about either BA or MC.
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Nov 16, 2016 00:14
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Hat Thoughts posted:I liked Massive Chalice, I mean, I got it for free but I don't know what, if any, expectations people had for that game and I also didn't even know it was originally a KS game. That said, I bought it and enjoyed it. Judging by the trophy percentage though I'm going to say many people did not.
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Nov 16, 2016 00:14
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Scratch-O posted:Really, dude? Space Base DF-9 probably wasn't a deliberate scam, but it was certainly handled in an incredibly lovely, cynical, anti-consumer way that benefited the developer and no one else, and I can understand people taking a very dim view of what happened and calling what appears to be a personal man-powered entrenching tool a spade.
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Nov 16, 2016 00:28
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Okay, I'm impressed. I know a lot of a kickstarter's success hinges on how much they can pull in on the first day, and - Jupiter Hell's already up to 19% funded, i.e. 11,580£. That gives me some hope of it actually getting funded. 
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Nov 16, 2016 00:32
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Massive Chalice was good but man was it easy to get overpowered.
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Nov 16, 2016 00:32
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Creative souls like Schafer need to work under the pressure of publishers and outside-appointed producers/managers who will control the feature creep and content inflation.
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Nov 16, 2016 00:33
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While Toxx is right about Spacebase he also tried to convince people that the Fig fundraiser for Psychonauts 2 was a failure because they only got $3.8 million of a $3.3 million goal. Pros and cons.
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Nov 16, 2016 00:43
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laserghost posted:Creative souls like Schafer need to work under the pressure of publishers and outside-appointed producers/managers who will control the feature creep and content inflation. The main thing we've learned from Kickstarter is what publishers actually do and why they're necessary.
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Nov 16, 2016 00:43
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The Lone Badger posted:The main thing we've learned from Kickstarter is what publishers actually do and why they're necessary. Yeah, for each story about how publisher meddling ruined games there are problem half a dozen more how publisher meddling saved them that never get told, because those aren't interesting stories to hear about.
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Nov 16, 2016 00:49
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Memento posted:Space Base DF-9 probably wasn't a deliberate scam, but it was certainly handled in an incredibly lovely, cynical, anti-consumer way that benefited the developer and no one else, and I can understand people taking a very dim view of what happened and calling what appears to be a personal man-powered entrenching tool a spade. I mean, it's still actively being sold with zero indication that development was abandoned on the store page. loving Towns got taken off the Steam store for roughly the same thing.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:01
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Space Base DF-9 was a mess. Acting like it is the default norm for Double Fine games is really stupid and acting like Tim Schafer exists only to scam people out of money and isn't, y'know, a flawed developer of games is really really stupid.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:08
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if a guy scams people then he's a scam artist *guy runs over seventeen pedestrians on three separate occasions* hey, he's not a maniac! he's just bad at driving.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:14
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Endorph posted:if a guy scams people then he's a scam artist That is certainly a comparable situation.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:16
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The main thing that Kickstarter has shown us is that marketing is what makes money not games.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:16
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ImpAtom posted:That is certainly a comparable situation.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:19
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Endorph posted:tbh id rather get hit by a car than solve that knot puzzle in broken age, so Okay? "Someone made a puzzle I don't like" doesn't make them a scam artist. There is a specific and malicious level of intent implied in the claim of scam artist which I think is pretty difficult to prove and if you were applying that level of scrutiny to it would probably apply to a large percentage of video games on the market. Doublefine has done some pretty inept things and I haven't really enjoyed a game of theirs since Costume Quest but there is maybe one example of them genuinely loving up to that specific degree and even that is 'we screwed up and handled it badly' and not 'we set out to maliciously steal all your moneys, muwahaha!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 01:21
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ImpAtom posted:Okay? "Someone made a puzzle I don't like" doesn't make them a scam artist.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:23
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ImpAtom posted:Okay? "Someone made a puzzle I don't like" doesn't make them a scam artist. Keeping in mind that I don't think Schafer is a scam artist, does "releasing a half finished broken game and giving no indication that its development has been abandoned and still charging money for it" fit the bill?
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Nov 16, 2016 01:24
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laserghost posted:Creative souls like Schafer need to work under the pressure of publishers and outside-appointed producers/managers who will control the feature creep and content inflation. I would chip in $50 towards a Tim Schafer game if the stretch goal was Bobby Kotick telling him that his game was overbudget and not very good all day.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:25
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Endorph posted:brutal legend (you yourself described it as intentional deception on his part,) df-9, didn't massive chalice get crapped out and abandoned too? I think Brutal Legend was a fuckup but if you take him at face value what he thought was that people would be surprised and enjoy it. I think that's loving dumb but I also don't believe he created Brutal Legend with the intent to defraud people out of money but because he (IMO incorrectly) thought it was a game people would actually enjoy. I have genuinely no reason to believe Double Fine isn't genuinely trying to make good games and they gently caress up sometimes instead of being some bizarre scheme to steal your money by releasing mostly C to B- grade indie games. Memento posted:Keeping in mind that I don't think Schafer is a scam artist, does "releasing a half finished broken game and giving no indication that its development has been abandoned and still charging money for it" fit the bill? If it does then there are more games that fit that notch then don't considering how many have poorly impliemented features, clearly rushed development, unfixed bugs, have shut down multiplayer or other stuff. I think Spacebase is a hair worse than Assassin's Creed Unity but only a hair worse.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:27
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ImpAtom posted:If it does then there are more games that fit that notch then don't considering how many have poorly impliemented features, clearly rushed development, unfixed bugs, have shut down multiplayer or other stuff. I think Spacebase is a hair worse than Assassin's Creed Unity but only a hair worse. Poorly implemented features: bad Not at all implemented features and no indication of discontinued development: okay, because it's Schafer behind it Gotcha.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:29
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Kyrosiris posted:Not at all implemented features and no indication of discontinued development: okay, because it's Schafer behind it Yes, that is exactly what I said and not you drastically and intentionally misreading my words because you're more interested in whining about Tim Schafer. Edit: "Hey, I think Space Base is worse than a game released so unfinished they had to give away free games to apologize for it!" "Well you just love Tim Schafer so much!!!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 01:30
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Hahahaha, Jupiter Hell doubled down on the trailer horribleness for Kickstarter, I only made it 20 seconds. I wish it was Youtube so I could link it directly in the thread.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:39
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ImpAtom's whole bit is intentionally and aggressively misinterpreting what people say because he just doubles down and doubles down and never admits he's wrong about anything. Also lol DF-9 was released so unfinished they gave away a free game for it.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:39
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Obsurveyor posted:Hahahaha, Jupiter Hell doubled down on the trailer horribleness for Kickstarter, I only made it 20 seconds. I wish it was Youtube so I could link it directly in the thread. That's disappointing. I don't get why they so badly misunderstood what people want from a trailer even after getting feedback. Lick! The! Whisk! posted:ImpAtom's whole bit is intentionally and aggressively misinterpreting what people say because he just doubles down and doubles down and never admits he's wrong about anything. 
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Nov 16, 2016 01:41
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The last game I backed was Yooka-Laylee because I knew I was gonna buy it anyway so why not just lay down the cash then.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:43
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Endorph posted:didn't massive chalice get crapped out and abandoned too? Massive Chalice is actually one of the few comparative bright spots in DF's recent history, mostly because the director of the project, Brad Muir, is a guy who, one, cares about a game's mechanics being sound, two, a game being scoped and developed correctly over pie-in-the-sky horseshit idealism, and three, tries to make games based on the budget they have and not the budget they want. And he ended up with a game with - surprise, surprise - a game that came in on time and on budget with solid mechanics and a reasonable scope based on the budget they had. Notice how when it's not directly involved with Tim Schafer in any executive position it turns out well. Brad Muir, for his part, left DF for the much greener pastures of ValVe.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:45
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A publisher certainly wouldn't have put up with them not working on BA until the entire script was finalized.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:46
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StrixNebulosa posted:Jupiter Hell, the sequel/successor to DoomRL is up. Haven't watched the trailer yet but I trust it's better than the one we saw earlier. Just off the jump they look like they're doing pretty well. Good for them!
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Nov 16, 2016 01:50
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Obsurveyor posted:Hahahaha, Jupiter Hell doubled down on the trailer horribleness for Kickstarter, I only made it 20 seconds. I wish it was Youtube so I could link it directly in the thread. I finally watched it, and  "Hallowed be thy pain" yeah okay you're lucky I love DoomRL so much.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:52
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For my part, Broken Age wasn't a scam, it was just a bad bullshit game that wasn't worth the money I spent on it in any capacity. DF-9 was totally and completely a loving scam that Schafer bears the ultimate responsibility for perpetrating, considering he's the CEO of the company that canned it, and posted that long, super duper bullshit letter defending it that's obviously a pack of lies if you know literally anything at all about the process of game development. Like absolutely anything at all. And considering JP LeBreton was quoted, on twitter, a literal month before the product was shelved (er, switched from alpha to gold because that's apparently how gamedev works at DF, totes) that development was not shelved because, direct quote, they're not some "fly-by-night indie dev" there's no excuse. It was a cancelled project, which DF are maliciously and literally to this day presenting as feature complete, with absolutely no indication that it's feature incomplete. Steam had to change rules about how EA worked because of the DF-9 debacle, that's how anti-consumer it loving was. The only indication you get that it's a mess are Steam reviews, which are also utilized by racist assholes complaining about LGBTQ content in video games or have been directed to downvote a game by specific sections of the internet. That's the only consumer protection the game's store page has, a tainted and inherently flawed system. DF-9 was a scam. I'm willing to concede it almost certainly was developed in good faith, considering I follow JPL on twitter and he seems like a good dude who got totally hosed on his passion project, but everything that DF has done subsequently with DF - not issuing refunds and not updating the status of the game to its actual state, not even mentioning just pulling the game down which they absolutely should have done or been forced to do because it's not a completed product - is what scam artists do. And Schafer, being the CEO of the company who directly signed off on every move DF made post-DF-9, deserves the brunt of the blame for it. It's especially galling because as a collective nobody in the gaming press loving cares. DF, a big name in the video game world, took money from its fans, didn't deliver a complete product by any definition, insisted that it did, and then continued to sell the product with no indication of its actual status. And they're doing it right now. And nobody really gives a poo poo, they still get contract work all the time and are still treated as legitimate. It's hosed.
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Nov 16, 2016 01:59
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I don't care
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Nov 16, 2016 02:01
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Hello mods please put a moratorium on Schafer chat from now to eternity, thanks.
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Nov 16, 2016 02:02
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:It's especially galling because as a collective nobody in the gaming press loving cares. DF, a big name in the video game world, took money from its fans, didn't deliver a complete product by any definition, insisted that it did, and then continued to sell the product with no indication of its actual status. And they're doing it right now. And nobody really gives a poo poo, they still get contract work all the time and are still treated as legitimate. It's hosed. "Nobody cares" because they're not following your insane hyperbole that begins and ends with "literally everything is Tim Schafer's fault, exclusively" mindset, Toxxupation. You'll never actually listen to this because you're personally invested in hating someone and only that someone. You can tell because you only do this about Tim Schaefer. There are literally games that release their endings as DLC, ship without completed mechanics, have abusive and harmful gatcha/gambling mechanics built into them, and countless other things, but your rage is soly and exclusively situated on a single person. You are utterly and entirely incapable of getting that you're not making well-reasoned arguments about a unique and exceptional situation. You're screaming mad about a guy you personally dislike and wondering why people aren't focusing on a years-old fuckup in an industry with ten more anti-consumer and actively malicious things happening daily.
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Nov 16, 2016 02:05
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im sorry
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Nov 16, 2016 02:19
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I am not a super computer games person, I don't normally get worked up about them. Tim Schafer is no Chris Roberts, but because I purchased SB-DF:9 I will *never* give Shafer or his company any of my money ever again. I feel like I was definitely scammed by that game. There was a lot of easy things they could have done to ameliorate any of the hard feelings and they chose to do nothing. Giving out another poo poo game that I didn't want was a slap in the face. Now, he may have done some other games. Great. They launched, I don't give a poo poo. You get scammed by someone once, you are a fool to trust them again. Follow EN's advice : Sever.
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Nov 16, 2016 02:19
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StrixNebulosa posted:Jupiter Hell, the sequel/successor to DoomRL is up. Haven't watched the trailer yet but I trust it's better than the one we saw earlier. sorry Jupiter Hell guy, I like DoomRL but that trailer is so loving awful.
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Nov 16, 2016 02:19
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