|
I can't believe Sexy Star stole the pin after Mil's hubris defeated him fair and square.
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 08:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 15:47 |
|
|
My girlfriend spent the whole time during the last part of Aztec Warfare complaining about how trashy it was that she was getting beaten up and then grinned like a child and whooed when Sexy Star won and that was good enough for me.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 09:45
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Seconding that I'd have dug the ending more if it had been Ivelisse in that role. This but her in every role
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 11:41
|
|
|
Erebus posted:This but her in every role Also man the writers for Lucha Underground have thin skin with the way they are vanity searching twitter last night/this morning
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 14:51
|
|
|
achillesforever6 posted:Also man the writers for Lucha Underground have thin skin with the way they are vanity searching twitter last night/this morning I'm not surprised. I still mostly enjoy the show, but it has completely doubled down on all its worst aspects.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 15:20
|
|
|
OctoberCountry posted:I'm not surprised. I still mostly enjoy the show, but it has completely doubled down on all its worst aspects. https://twitter.com/HeelDoors/status/799250083158040576
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 15:45
|
|
|
I'd be interested to see gender split viewership figures for El Rey as a whole, with that in mind. I'm assuming Dave is talking about proportionally, rather than just straight numbers, but I would've guessed that El Rey just in general would have a pretty highly proportionately male viewer base.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 15:59
|
|
|
I think this is a pretty good ending to shake things up in the temple. The title moving from Matanza to Mil wouldn't be much of a change of the status quo. Have Star hold it, beat Mundo and then maybe have Puma come back dark and destroy her eventually since whoever beats her is going to get a lot of heat and he would need it if he was turning. I just hope Sexy Star vs Mundo doesn't get drawn out past next week with her constantly getting Angelico and The Mack to even the odds, because that is starting to feel strained.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 16:49
|
|
|
I think Aztec Warfare has beatout the Royal Rumble for my favorite gimmick match. That was great.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 17:08
|
|
|
Revenant Threshold posted:I'd be interested to see gender split viewership figures for El Rey as a whole, with that in mind. I'm assuming Dave is talking about proportionally, rather than just straight numbers, but I would've guessed that El Rey just in general would have a pretty highly proportionately male viewer base. I really feel like actual demographic information for UL is hard to know. Remember, all the info Dave cites is from Nielsen ratings (as far as I know), and at this small of a viewership, it's hard to think those mean much in terms of actually determining the viewing demographic. At 120-180k, you're talking about what, less than 20 households? If your abuelita watches one week, all of a sudden the 80+ female viewership skyrockets. The live crowd is a 10 times bigger sample, although that's obviously skewed. Although Nielsen ratings are skewed in their own way, since it's missing streaming services, iTunes, etc, which is where the younger and possibly female sector would be more likely to watch. That's not to say the split is definitely better, I just think we don't know. For demographic info, at this low of a total viewership, I feel like Nielsens are barely better than anecdotal evidence. I can say "hey, there's a lot of women at the live shows" but that doesn't mean anything either. For all I know, the viewing crowd could be all ancient latino men who grew up with classic Lucha Libre. Or there could be a bunch of college girls watching on iTunes. I just don't know. I don't know if intergender matches drive viewers away. I kind of doubt it. I haven't seen many people say "I'd watch LU were it not for those damned intergender matches." I'm sure there are some, but it doesn't seem to be a large amount. More people say "I'd watch LU if it was actually on a channel I had" or "if it was on a streaming service that I got outside of the US" which is the much larger concern. But I think Dave's wrong in saying it doesn't result in anything positive. I do hear lots of anecdotal stories like we got in this thread of "my little girl was super happy when Sexy Star won" or "my girlfriend freaked out when Ivelisse got the pin" or whatever. I've seen a lot of commentary online from women who find it empowering that the girls fight the boys. Again, if that's how it makes some portion of the viewers feel, then its okay by me. There's also a bit of conflating the questions of "do people dislike intergender wrestling" with "do people hate Sexy Star" which I think are two very different things. I really wonder how different the reactions would have been if this was Ivelisse. At any rate, if the Sexy Star championship makes some people happy (and like most have said, assuming she's not gonna hold the belt for the rest of the season) it doesn't bug me all that much. The bottom line is really that the writers of this show are writing in comic book land, and in that genre, the women fight the men. You don't have Black Widow sectioned off only fighting other women. And remember who the guy at the top of the food chain is here:    A dude who really likes women with guns. Unless there's really a concerted "this promotes domestic violence" kind of backlash (which if it were coming, would probably already have happened), I don't think the intergender matches will be changing. StarkRavingMad fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Nov 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 17:16
|
|
|
Any time I hear complaints about women fighting men in wrestling I can't help but roll my eyes. It's wrestling. It's not the really real world. Like the above poster said, it's comic book land. The people who get really offended by it must hate poo poo like the Undertaker or anything else that destroys their suspension of disbelief.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 17:24
|
|
|
The idea of wrestling is that it's a presented as a shoot fight (even LU, with all the mystical poo poo in the story segments is very much presented as "underground illegal shoot fights" when actually in the ring). If someone was broadcasting a shoot fight where a guy was beating the poo poo out of a woman, my two thoughts would be 1) what kind of shitbag freakshow promotion sanctioned this, and 2) where is the remote
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 17:26
|
|
|
But if it's comic book land, why is the story in just about every LU intergender match "Small Woman gets beat up by Larger, Violent Man and loses/flukes a win"? They're never portrayed at the same level of ability as their male counterparts. Like when the WWE made Rey Mysterio the World Champion then had him get beat down by everybody. It made him look weak & ineffective and highlighted the fact that he's small. If he was in there doing all sorts of cool poo poo to the heels & making them look foolish, people would've taken to his title reign more.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 17:32
|
|
|
StarkRavingMad posted:I really feel like actual demographic information for UL is hard to know. Remember, all the info Dave cites is from Nielsen ratings (as far as I know), and at this small of a viewership, it's hard to think those mean much in terms of actually determining the viewing demographic. At 120-180k, you're talking about what, less than 20 households? If your abuelita watches one week, all of a sudden the 80+ female viewership skyrockets. The live crowd is a 10 times bigger sample, although that's obviously skewed. Although Nielsen ratings are skewed in their own way, since it's missing streaming services, iTunes, etc, which is where the younger and possibly female sector would be more likely to watch. I think Dave's problem is that when he argues he really, really likes to depend on verifiable facts and keep opinion and anecdotal evidence completely out of it, so he's fixated on Nielsens without considering that, as you say, they're really not a very reliable demographic metric in a situation like this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 17:35
|
|
|
I attend a wide variety of wrestling events, and Lucha has more female attendance than any other. All of the women I know that watch are attracted to the intergender matches and are very happy to see women as equals to the men. I also don't know any men alienated by seeing the sexes mix in the squared circle; does it bother any of y'all?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 17:48
|
|
|
Choom Gangster posted:I attend a wide variety of wrestling events, and Lucha has more female attendance than any other. All of the women I know that watch are attracted to the intergender matches and are very happy to see women as equals to the men. I also don't know any men alienated by seeing the sexes mix in the squared circle; does it bother any of y'all? I was surprised at the number of women at the taping I went to. It's probably second proportionally only to Hoodslam. Yeah, let that one sink in. I wasn't too hot on Sexy Star till I saw her live and she won me over to the point where I marked out she high fived me. She's not the best in ring but she has charisma and was crazy loving over in the Temple.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 18:45
|
|
|
dsriggs posted:But if it's comic book land, why is the story in just about every LU intergender match "Small Woman gets beat up by Larger, Violent Man and loses/flukes a win"? They're never portrayed at the same level of ability as their male counterparts. Like when the WWE made Rey Mysterio the World Champion then had him get beat down by everybody. It made him look weak & ineffective and highlighted the fact that he's small. If he was in there doing all sorts of cool poo poo to the heels & making them look foolish, people would've taken to his title reign more. It's not always that way, though. When you look at some of the tag matches recently where Taya squares off against someone like Drago or Fenix, she's not portrayed like she's cowering in there or not fighting as their equals, because she's roughly the same size as them. The problem I guess is when you have them in there against a Mil Muertes or a Matanza, then they have to toe the line a little between comic book equality and realism. But I think it would be the same if you put a much lighter male opponent in with one of those guys. Hell, look at the Fenix versus Muertes matches, they are all "Small Man gets beat up by Larger, Violent Man and squeaks out a fluke win through determination (or gets murdered)." So I don't think it's necessarily a "women are weaker" portrayal, but it is the reality of them facing off against someone that has 100 pounds on them. The problem is that it's going to be the case a lot of the time just due to the average size differential. I'd be interested to see what it would look like if LU had like a Kharma/Nia Jax size woman wrestler around, and if she'd be just ragdolling smaller male competitors. Ivelisse said something interesting in an interview where she was talking about how she likes facing off against the men and having non-gendered titles, but she sometimes wishes LU had something like a lower-weight class belt. I don't know if that would help or hinder things. Choom Gangster posted:I attend a wide variety of wrestling events, and Lucha has more female attendance than any other. All of the women I know that watch are attracted to the intergender matches and are very happy to see women as equals to the men. I also don't know any men alienated by seeing the sexes mix in the squared circle; does it bother any of y'all? It generally doesn't. The closest it came to bothering me was that Taya/Cage match where he just destroyed her for like 10 minutes, that felt a little like it was leering at the violence although it did get across very early in her appearances that she is tough as hell and got her way over with at least the live crowd. But in storyline, they want to be here fighting -- anyone could just leave the Temple at any time -- and it's pretty clear what everyone is in for when they are there. In real life, they also want to be here doing this (or they wouldn't take intergender bookings). So, like, who am I to say "oh no, we should protect the poor fragile womenfolk?" In any event, I feel like having a show that's trying to explore this space and sparks these kinds of conversations is overall a good thing, even if they don't hit the mark with it 100% of the time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
StarkRavingMad posted:The bottom line is really that the writers of this show are writing in comic book land, and in that genre, the women fight the men. You don't have Black Widow sectioned off only fighting other women. And remember who the guy at the top of the food chain is here: Similarly, I see Lucha Underground as the fighting game of wrestling shows. It's Mortal Kombat. Sonya Blade can fight Goro. Kitana can fight Shao Kahn. It's no big deal. Now that I think about it, the only WWE game in the past ten years where men and women are even allowed to fight is the one made by the Mortal Kombat guys. I'm surprised they didn't put the kibosh on Nikki Bella being allowed to fight Brock Lesnar.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 19:18
|
|
|
Dave complaining about the intergender matches mostly feels like an outdated opinion. I get why you would not do it when wrestling presented itself as a legitimate sport but those days are long gone. We all know that it is fake. Comparing it to a shoot fight just doesn't make sense. If UFC did an intergender fight you wouldn't be upset that one fighter was a man and the other was a woman, you would be upset because it would be a one sided murder. Same reason no one wants to watch guys in wildly different weight classes fight. Wrestling doesn't have that constraint so it seems silly to pretend that it does. Everyone is as big and strong as their fighting spirit.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 19:28
|
|
|
Suspension of disbelief is a very subjective thing but it's always been extremely important in professional wrestling. Jim Cornette did a good job of explaining it once, when he explained that of course he knew it was a work, but he could watch a really competitive match in the 80s and get lost in the moment if it was good enough and seemed real. If you take the same match and break an obviously fake cinder block over someone's head to finally pin them for a three count, that might ruin it for a lot of people because it's so obviously fake. Even if you're watching LU with the idea that it's "comic book land," these rules still apply. It's like watching a movie with an obviously fake or botched special effect, or when action goes so over the top you can't get into it. You might just say "Eh, it's just a movie, who cares," but there's a line there for all of us. It's like when the redlettermedia guy joked that the scene in Force Awakens where they see the planets blow up from another planet took him out of the movie because you can't see poo poo happening light years away as it's happening. I didn't even think about it, but he's right, that's kind of stupid even in a movie about space wizards. The line is different for everybody. Some people get irritated by sci fi movies simply for having sound in space. The problem with LU is that they push that line way more than other wrestling shows. I have no way of knowing, but I also assume more wrestling fans watch LU than hokey comic book fans. I know I am not a comic book fan, and while I'm willing to give it more of a chance than Corny, there have been several matches I just couldn't get into because of this. The Cage match where he kept getting smashed with obviously fake objects and just no-sold it, the nun-chucks match where people still had faces and intact skulls afterwards, Joey Ryan's obviously fake handcuffs, etc. are all good examples. I don't mind the backstage stuff AS much, but I also think there's an issue there because while a few of these guys are good actors, most of them are not. Joey Ryan, I'm looking at you. It's a fine line and it's different for everyone. I also don't like it when wrestlers put their opponents through tables outside the ring and do all kids of ridiculous poo poo that gets kicked out of only to win with their mediocre looking finisher, because that's their finisher. Also, it's possible to like the Undertaker because of what he does in the ring but not care for all the goofy poo poo he's done outside the ring outside of camp value. My point is, suspension of disbelief is still important in pro wrestling and dismissing that because everyone knows it's fake isn't a good argument. Might as well turn it all into a Michael Bay movie.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 19:42
|
|
|
I like intergender matches, but I'd also like if they had more women vs. women matches too. I can only think of a few that have taken place here...
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 19:47
|
|
|
Mulaney Power Move posted:Suspension of disbelief is a very subjective thing but it's always been extremely important in professional wrestling. Jim Cornette did a good job of explaining it once, when he explained that of course he knew it was a work, but he could watch a really competitive match in the 80s and get lost in the moment if it was good enough and seemed real. If you take the same match and break an obviously fake cinder block over someone's head to finally pin them for a three count, that might ruin it for a lot of people because it's so obviously fake. I don't think anyone's saying suspension of disbelief isn't important; it's more that if you're watching a show where one of the wrestlers is literally a time travelling spaceship and there are multiple instances of in-ring teleportation, and the part that breaks your suspension of disbelief is intergender matches, you might have some deeper issues to work out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 19:47
|
|
|
Maybe it's because I've not been into wrestling that long but I find wrestling playing it straight to be the worst part. If I want a real fight I watch UFC. If I want two over the top superheros punching each other I watch wrestling. I find LU going full stupid to be refreshing. I like someone owning how stupid wrestling is. Edit: I do agree about guys winning with their mediocre finish. If someone kicks out after being out through a bunch of tables then you need to escalate to what actually puts them away. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Nov 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 19:50
|
|
|
fatherdog posted:I don't think anyone's saying suspension of disbelief isn't important; it's more that if you're watching a show where one of the wrestlers is literally a time travelling spaceship and there are multiple instances of in-ring teleportation, and the part that breaks your suspension of disbelief is intergender matches, you might have some deeper issues to work out. FWIW I have always thought the sci-fi/mystical elements of LU have always been extremely at odds with its "gritty underground fighting club" aesthetic. Like I don't watch CHIKARA but it is fully committed to its aesthetic/universe. LU seems to want to be "Chikara but Shoot Fights" which makes no sense.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 19:51
|
|
|
If I had to pick someone to be their first female champion, I would have chosen Ivelisse or Taya. But Ivelisse is injured and they probably wanted their first female champion to be a face so  I do like how Johnny Mundo went through all this trouble and effort to get the Gift of the Gods title off Sexy Star and she still ended up winning the title before him though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 20:23
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:FWIW I have always thought the sci-fi/mystical elements of LU have always been extremely at odds with its "gritty underground fighting club" aesthetic. Like I don't watch CHIKARA but it is fully committed to its aesthetic/universe. LU seems to want to be "Chikara but Shoot Fights" which makes no sense. I think it more mostly wants to be Mortal Kombat, which it basically is, although you can only do so much of that in the ring. But we did have actual teleportation during a match at one point. Now we just need Matanza to start throwing harpoons. Rhonne posted:If I had to pick someone to be their first female champion, I would have chosen Ivelisse or Taya. But Ivelisse is injured and they probably wanted their first female champion to be a face so I think Taya may have been injured too, she wasn't at Aztec Warfare, not even for the run-in section. If I recall she showed up to one taping after that with like a soft cast/boot on her foot. But she wasn't injured long.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 20:29
|
|
|
fatherdog posted:I don't think anyone's saying suspension of disbelief isn't important; it's more that if you're watching a show where one of the wrestlers is literally a time travelling spaceship and there are multiple instances of in-ring teleportation, and the part that breaks your suspension of disbelief is intergender matches, you might have some deeper issues to work out. well that's the problem, there are a ton of things on LU that are just plain stupid even to pro wrestling fans. if you like it you like it, but i don't think it's fair to say that people are behind the times or their opinions are wrong just because they would prefer a more traditional format, which all indications seem show is way more popular overall today and certainly seemed to be the case when pro wrestling itself was way more popular -- and no i am not referring specifically to the attitude era here. personally, i thought the CWC was better than anything i've seen on LU so far. just like i'd rather watch Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat than the Dungeon of Doom, except when he does the Flair flop. I hate it when he does the flop.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 20:54
|
|
|
Mulaney Power Move posted:well that's the problem, there are a ton of things on LU that are just plain stupid even to pro wrestling fans. if you like it you like it, but i don't think it's fair to say that people are behind the times or their opinions are wrong just because they would prefer a more traditional format, which all indications seem show is way more popular overall today and certainly seemed to be the case when pro wrestling itself was way more popular -- and no i am not referring specifically to the attitude era here. And that's all cool and totally valid. Not every form of wrestling is enjoyable to everyone, and that's fine. LU is doing something that a good amount of people like, but I'm not going to argue that everyone should love it, especially if you are a wrestling traditionalist. Especially where the argument isn't just "ick, intergender wrestling" but instead "I prefer shoot-esque realism and intergender doesn't fit that," then yeah, it's just personal taste and its hard to argue against that. I think it's where people are down with all the other ridiculous stuff but then go "A woman fighting a man?? Preposterous!!" that it's hard not to give them the side-eye.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 21:30
|
|
|
Mulaney Power Move posted:well that's the problem, there are a ton of things on LU that are just plain stupid even to pro wrestling fans. if you like it you like it, but i don't think it's fair to say that people are behind the times or their opinions are wrong just because they would prefer a more traditional format A) Nobody's saying that B) Those people shouldn't be watching LU because that is explicitly not what it is, so what was the point of even bringing this up in the LU thread?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 21:33
|
|
|
fatherdog posted:A) Nobody's saying that some people are saying it, for instance the person saying meltzer's opinion is outdated, and i was just criticizing LU in the LU thread, and i'm not even the one who started the discussion of why people don't like LU! i think the issue is this is the only wrestling thread where people actually seem to NOT like complaining about the product.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 21:52
|
|
|
If the WWE thread was just about smackdown it would probably have a lot less complaining. And I wasn't saying everyone is outdated, just Meltzer. His complaint is weird and he's defending it with data that doesn't show the whole picture. Know what I do hate about LU? How long they tease out new wrestlers. I was expecting these rabbit guys to show up in Aztec Warfare. We've had over a month of teasers and they have not shown a thing. Also Mariposa is really under used.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 22:05
|
|
|
Mulaney Power Move posted:some people are saying it, for instance the person saying meltzer's opinion is outdated Meltzer's opinion on intergender fights is that it's driving away sponsors and not attracting fans, not that it's affecting the suspension of disbelief, which makes your entire post a giant non-sequitor. quote:and i was just criticizing LU in the LU thread, and i'm not even the one who started the discussion of why people don't like LU! i think the issue is this is the only wrestling thread where people actually seem to NOT like complaining about the product. You posted a multi-paragraph post about how it's unfair to criticize people for preferring traditional wrestling format, which A) is not a criticism of LU, B) was not responsive to anything anyone in the thread was actually posting, and C) is stupid to post in the LU thread because it is explicitly not a traditional wrestling format so fans who do prefer that shouldn't be (and, probably, aren't) watching it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 22:07
|
|
|
well a.) that's not what my post was about, my post was about suspension of disbelief being a problem with LU; my second post was about traditional wrestling, b.) it was in response to other posts, and c.) i'm not going to stop watching lu.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 22:24
|
|
|
StarkRavingMad posted:Especially where the argument isn't just "ick, intergender wrestling" but instead "I prefer shoot-esque realism and intergender doesn't fit that," then yeah, it's just personal taste and its hard to argue against that. I think it's where people are down with all the other ridiculous stuff but then go "A woman fighting a man?? Preposterous!!" that it's hard not to give them the side-eye.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2016 00:03
|
|
|
Revenant Threshold posted:The weird part I find with the whole "an average woman couldn't possibly beat up the average man, my immersion" is that this is a company with Rey "No way am I 5'6''" Mysterio as a dominant main eventer. Seeing Rey at the tapings, where he was walking around on the floor at roughly the same level that I was standing in the bleachers, really surprised me on how tiny he really is. That guy comes up to my chest, and I'm not exactly a giant. He's also crazy buff for his size though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2016 00:08
|
|
|
Revenant Threshold posted:The weird part I find with the whole "an average woman couldn't possibly beat up the average man, my immersion" is that this is a company with Rey "No way am I 5'6''" Mysterio as a dominant main eventer. To be fair, Rey Mysterio also happens to be one of the greatest wrestlers of all time so that helps a fair bit!
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2016 00:24
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:To be fair, Rey Mysterio also happens to be one of the greatest wrestlers of all time so that helps a fair bit!
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2016 00:45
|
|
|
Revenant Threshold posted:In terms of the "if this was a real fight, a woman would get destroyed!" people Oh right, yeah I'm not one of those. Lucha Underground is a wrestling show with 1000+ year old dragons and other supernatural monsters and spacemen and immortals using ancient Mexican magic. Believability is not a major concern for me 
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2016 00:48
|
|
|
For all of Sexy's limitations, she's always had charisma and knows how to tell a story in the ring, which frankly is more important to me than actual wrestling ability. No Mas and last night's match proved that she can deliver in the big moments.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2016 01:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 15:47 |
|
|
Revenant Threshold posted:Yeah, and to the extent people don't like this because Sexy Star is really not great I can understand (I'm one of them). In terms of the "if this was a real fight, a woman would get destroyed!" people, I don't think I've ever heard someone say "Rey would get murked by half the roster, I can't buy him as a top guy." Only because Vince doesn't watch the show.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2016 01:32
|
|