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ego symphonic posted:The goal of a major league baseball team is to win the World Series not to "win" trades If your goal is to win 3-4 coin tosses in a row, your plan to achieve that goal should be centered around making it to the coin toss round as many times as possible, not gluing an extra milligram to one side of the coin for one season
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Nov 22, 2016 17:59
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TheChaosPath posted:If your goal is to win 3-4 coin tosses in a row, your plan to achieve that goal should be centered around making it to the coin toss round as many times as possible, not gluing an extra milligram to one side of the coin for one season And dealing Torres lessens their chances of making it into the postseason for the next several years how?
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Nov 22, 2016 18:10
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TheChaosPath posted:If your goal is to win 3-4 coin tosses in a row, your plan to achieve that goal should be centered around making it to the coin toss round as many times as possible, not gluing an extra milligram to one side of the coin for one season Not really. The value of an ace reliever goes up in the postseason because of how liberally you can use them. So in the case of a team like the Cubs, who knew they had a postseason berth, it was a good call to put some weight on the coin. People argued this back in July when they made the trade. They've since won a historic world series. Edit: Also, yeah, this doesn't hurt them for the next few years. The absolute best case scenario for Torres is that he becomes a productive major leaguer and contributes to a championship team in a useful capacity. You already got that upside. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 18:10
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bad boy in the boy band posted:It just sucks that it was for a rental, the Yankees made out like goddamn bandits, and they're going to get all those guys essentially for free because Chapman is going back there anyway. So it was a good deal and you'd do it again, but you're still mad because it wasn't a better deal? I don't know if you realize but Cashman wasn't just going to hand over Chapman for a bag of baseballs and a pair of season tickets in the bleachers, if he didn't get what he wanted in return from the Cubs there were plenty of other teams who'd be more than willing to make him an offer.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:12
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We literally don't even know if Torres is going to play an MLB game ever.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:12
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A World Series win is a World Series win, but Torres could be anything! He could even help you win a World Series!
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Nov 22, 2016 18:14
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I know the Cubs reached the very pinnacle of the sport, but have you considered that Torres might be really good in 2019 or 2020?
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Nov 22, 2016 18:15
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bad boy in the boy band posted:It just sucks that it was for a rental, the Yankees made out like goddamn bandits, and they're going to get all those guys essentially for free because Chapman is going back there anyway. Way back when, when the Cubs were making out like goddamn bandits trading Jason Hammel and signing him back, or making out like goddamn bandits trading away assets to contenders for guys like Kyle Hendricks and Jake Arrieta it wasn't as fun as winning a World Series but maybe I'm the weird one. We also traded for guys like Mike Olt, and that worked well....so to sum up my feelings: A: It's better to win than hug prospects. B: Flags for at least 108 years, possibly forever.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:15
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Intruder posted:A World Series win is a World Series win, but Torres could be anything! He could even help you win a World Series! Why I bet he could have helped us win 10 World Series!
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Nov 22, 2016 18:16
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Like if you want to tell me you don't like that trade because Chapman is a shithead who beat his girlfriend then I'll listen to you, but hugging prospects is incredibly stupid, especially when: a: Your team had a seemingly endless stream of prospects hit in the past 3 seasons and b: your team's potential payroll is approaching infinite.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:19
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c: Chapman played a significant role in winning the World Series
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Nov 22, 2016 18:22
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TheChaosPath posted:If your goal is to win 3-4 coin tosses in a row, your plan to achieve that goal should be centered around making it to the coin toss round as many times as possible, not gluing an extra milligram to one side of the coin for one season Pretty much this. But nobody's going to get your point as they're all going to interpret it how they want anyway. I guess I wanted to have my cake and eat it too. I'm very happy with the world series, and I guess that means that none of us can ever question anything about the Cubs ever again ever. We should trade all of the prospects now. All of them. No hugs, just a kick in the rear end and a poke in the eye on the way out the door. Theo, get your rear end on the phone and ship every one of those losers out to defend our title. Do it now! BigBallChunkyTime fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 18:24
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Is this where we show off our forever flags?
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Nov 22, 2016 18:25
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I do get his point but saying it's just a coin flip is pretty reductive The Cubs had a glaring weakness they were able to turn into a strength, and in the end that strength ended up being the difference for them bad boy in the boy band posted:We should trade all of the prospects now. All of them. No hugs, just a kick in the rear end and a poke in the eye on the way out the door. Theo, get your rear end on the phone and ship every one of those losers out to defend our title. Do it now! lol
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Nov 22, 2016 18:31
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It has been 109 years since the Cubs won a trade. There's always next year.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:31
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My team just won a championship thanks largely to a player they traded a prospect for. However, if they could have not made that trade and still won I'd have preferred that. No I'm not willing to accept the idea that they don't win without the trade
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Nov 22, 2016 18:33
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[quote="bad boy in the boy band" post=""466703050"] We should trade all of the prospects now. All of them. No hugs, just a kick in the rear end and a poke in the eye on the way out the door. Theo, get your rear end on the phone and ship every one of those losers out to defend our title. Do it now! [/quote] This is exactly what everyone is saying, congratulations for jumping on the team and coming on in for the big win! Sadly the only World Series up for grabs this year was the 2016 version, so we all make do with what we can.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:34
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ALFbrot posted:It has been 109 years since the Cubs won a trade. There's always next year. Kind of want to buy Kevlar and/or Poque an Ernie Broglio shirsey for Christmas.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:34
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TheChaosPath posted:If your goal is to win 3-4 coin tosses in a row, your plan to achieve that goal should be centered around making it to the coin toss round as many times as possible, not gluing an extra milligram to one side of the coin for one season I agree. Which is what the Cubs have done. Their entire young infield is under control for the foreseeable future. Torres wouldn't have helped them make it to the coin flip round until at least like 2019 or 2020. Chapman gave them that extra milligram which weighted the coin just enough to come up Cubs in each of the series they were in. Like I said, I trust Theo to find other Infield and outfield prospects. He, and his GM and head of scouting have shown me that they are extremely competent at finding high quality talent and converting them to talented ball players. Losing Torres sucked, but he was possition blocked anyway. And Addison Russell is still young still improving and is still really loving good. Ditto with Baez.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:37
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Clearly I need to add Torres to the Hall of Fame ballot this year. Speaking of, gonna have the topic up today or tomorrow to allow discussion on the players before making the ballot live
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Nov 22, 2016 18:37
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I too am annoyed the Cubs traded a potential all-star caliber infielder for a key piece in their world series win. If only they already had five all-star caliber infielders who were playing in the majors right now and under control for the next 3-5 years. Man, that'd be something.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:41
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Sydin posted:I too am annoyed the Cubs traded a potential all-star caliber infielder for a key piece in their world series win. If only they already had five all-star caliber infielders who were playing in the majors right now and under control for the next 3-5 years. Man, that'd be something. Clearly Chicago mortgaged their entire future for this one coin flip, and they are now relegated to the basement for another century. A shame, really.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:44
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The brad lidge trade was dumb too but Phillies got a WS out of it so i'm fine with it. Cubs fans should DWI imo
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Nov 22, 2016 18:44
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"Don't make a gleeful headlong sprint to throw yourself over a barrel on a trade" is not the same thing as "Don't make trades"
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Nov 22, 2016 18:50
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I also have faith in Theo to fleece some other team at some point to make up for the "L"(I mean they just won a loving world series jesus christ) they had to take on this trade.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:50
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The Cardinals probably don't win 2011 without Jake Westbrook, as he got the win in Game 6 (along with winning 12 in the regular season where every win was crucial). Part of that trade involved the Indians getting a minor leaguer at the time out of San Diego, some dude named Corey Kluber. In theory the Cards could have gotten Kluber instead of Westbrook. I don't regret that trade at all. 2011 was awesome.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:50
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Like Jesus christ Cubs fans. Like I'm as cynical as someone can be. But holy loving poo poo they just won a World Series. Potential is great. and if we didn't have like all of the shortstops and infielders already I might actually somewhat care. But I don't know how the gently caress you could watch these playoffs the Cubs just survived through and think Chapman wasn't worth every ounce of potential they gave up for him.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:56
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And then everyone wonders why we complain about cubs chat. It's insufferable. Winter meetings start Dec 5th and I cannot wait. With this lovely of a free agency market I hope to see some fun BLOCKBUSTER trades including mystery teams.
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Nov 22, 2016 19:01
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Also, the Cubs should have totally kept Rizzo on the bench for World Series after his shameful display in the NLDS/NLCS.
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Nov 22, 2016 19:01
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Thom P. Tiers posted:Winter meetings start Dec 5th and I cannot wait. With this lovely of a free agency market I hope to see some fun BLOCKBUSTER trades including mystery teams.  Not enough dumb signings and crazy trades yet imo
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Nov 22, 2016 19:02
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Intruder posted:lol Well, I mean flags fly forever, right? Why not empty out the farm to shore up the bullpen for a few years? I mean, no guarantees those guys are going to be worth anything anyway so why not go for it? Hell, who needs a farm when you have nearly infinite payroll? Dexo you gotta chill, man. Yes, we won a world series. But are you going to be like this at the mere hint of anyone ever questioning the team again? Nobody is saying that they would rather have Torres over a championship, and anyone who thinks that is what is being said needs to get hit in the head with a bat. Just about nearly every Cubs fan in here was against the amount we gave up at the time of the trade. Maybe we don't win without Chapman. We'll never know. But it's not complaining or being a bad fan to say the Yankees got the better of the deal long-term. They got some really great prospects for free and it could really work out well for them in the long run. It worked out for us short-term for sure.
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Nov 22, 2016 19:05
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TMMadman posted:Also, the Cubs should have totally kept Rizzo on the bench for World Series after his shameful display in the NLDS/NLCS. Move David Ross there imo. This offseason is gonna be hilarious. Because Free Agency is so goddamn bad that Teams with glaring needs are gonna make hella dumb trades. I can't wait to see what the Sox end up pulling for Sale and Quintana(assuming they do IMO the right thing and trade both of those dudes for two teams entire farm system)
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Nov 22, 2016 19:06
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Dexo posted:Move David Ross there imo. I've heard rumblings of the Sox talking to the Dodgers about Sale. Is there anything to that or are the Dodgers just kicking the tires?
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Nov 22, 2016 19:18
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bad boy in the boy band posted:Just about nearly every Cubs fan in here was against the amount we gave up at the time of the trade. Maybe we don't win without Chapman. We'll never know. But it's not complaining or being a bad fan to say the Yankees got the better of the deal long-term. They got some really great prospects for free and it could really work out well for them in the long run. It worked out for us short-term for sure. We have no idea if the Yankees "won" that trade. From all angles so far the Cubs "won" that trade in that they got the best reliever in baseball who played a big part in them winning the World Series, which is the entire point. The Yankees have a bunch of high upside prospects who if the past 10 quintillion prospects have taught us anything may (probably) amount to squat. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Torres hit a .775 OPS in single A ball this year and despite a hot AzFL (month long season) that's not exactly lighting the world on fire.
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Nov 22, 2016 19:18
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TheChaosPath posted:"Don't make a gleeful headlong sprint to throw yourself over a barrel on a trade" is not the same thing as "Don't make trades" Is that really how you're going to characterize the Chapman trade? I don't get it. Is Theo now an idiot? Is Cashman a wizard? Who is this unnamed other dominant reliever the Cubs could have gotten for a pittance?
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Nov 22, 2016 19:18
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If the Yankees end up re-signing Chapman, it's pretty hard to see how they don't 'win' the trade from their perspective. Both teams can win!
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Nov 22, 2016 19:20
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bad boy in the boy band posted:Well, I mean flags fly forever, right? Why not empty out the farm to shore up the bullpen for a few years? I mean, no guarantees those guys are going to be worth anything anyway so why not go for it? Hell, who needs a farm when you have nearly infinite payroll? A) They didn't get the prospects for free, they got them in place of what else they could have traded Chapman for. That's what you were competing with, not the value of Chapman to a middling Yankees team. B) It remains to be seen how this pans out for the Yankees longterm, because Torres is in A ball and is not a centerpiece of a championship team. C) No one is saying you shouldn't ever question the team again. They are saying in this specific instance, in this specific trade, the answer to your questioning is that the Cubs made the right call and it worked out for them in the best possible way, so it's pretty silly to question them. If you aren't actually trying to discuss anything and are just pasting your journal entry about how you wish your team could win all the games and still have all the prospects, that's fine but you can also expect to be ridiculed for it.
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Nov 22, 2016 19:22
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Mike_V posted:If the Yankees end up re-signing Chapman, it's pretty hard to see how they don't 'win' the trade from their perspective. Both teams can win! This guy gets it. Even if Torres because good, then the cubs still "win" It's not black and white. Sure, in 5 years we may know who won "more" but something tells me literally no one is going to care about this trade then, even if Torres is an all star.
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Nov 22, 2016 19:24
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I made the Hall of Fame thread http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3799010
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Nov 22, 2016 19:25
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i'm now thinking about how Domonic Brown was TOO VALUABLE TO TRADE for so many years
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Nov 22, 2016 19:27
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