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if you dont want to get wet don't walk towards a water cannon imo, looks to be a perfectly good bridge right there and also some cozy looking campfires distinctly not near the operating water cannons. perhaps these protesters were uncertain about the function of a water cannon? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 22, 2016 06:16
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I see you came by that big red title honestly. Got any more authoritarianism to shill for while you're here? 
Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 06:43
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I'm new to most of this, so why exactly isn't Obama doing anything? Is it a matter of not having executive power to do anything or is he still playing the centrist game
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Nov 22, 2016 06:56
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Alan Smithee posted:I'm new to most of this, so why exactly isn't Obama doing anything? Is it a matter of not having executive power to do anything or is he still playing the centrist game He's the President, not the President-for-Life. The oval office reaching down to a local field office in the federal bureaucracy and directing them to decide one way or the other on a permit for political reasons, rather than follow the agency's published guidance for adjudication, would be breathtakingly corrupt. I'm not sure it would technically be illegal, he is the head of the executive branch after all, but it would be against all the principles of good government he campaigned on and would probably result in a fully justified congressional inquiry.
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Nov 22, 2016 07:32
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Dead Reckoning posted:If you are illegally occupying someone's land and setting fires, you don't get some kind of cold weather exception. The federal government is not 'someone', they're occupying their own ancestral land. Also, is it an aggravating circumstance to have built a fire if you're charged with something in America( assuming you don't build the fire with, say, someones car or public dumpsters, natch)? Tias fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 10:06
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Is there an unedited version of that vid? It might provide context that is missing from the clip like what happened leading up to the hose turning on.
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Nov 22, 2016 11:20
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Souai posted:Drone footage looks pretty damning, straight up super-soakering the crowd with the hose. Reminds me of civil rights era footage from school This is sickening. Especially since this may we'll be the only way to get anything resembling real journalism in the coming days if Trump has his way.
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Nov 22, 2016 11:42
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Geostomp posted:This is sickening. Especially since this may we'll be the only way to get anything resembling real journalism in the coming days if Trump has his way. What is all that debris up by the police line? Looks like two piles of it.
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Nov 22, 2016 12:01
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http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-dakota-access-pipeline-protests-20161121-story.html Sophia Wilansky's injury didn't appear on the list of casualties published by camp medics, so I was reluctant to share this initially. It sounds like she will need an amputation after being hit by a concussive grenade. There's a gofundme page for her medical bills below, and it looks like she received plenty of funding already. https://www.gofundme.com/30aezxs  https://s21.postimg.org/enfvtdmxz/FB_IMG_1479785471231.jpg https://s13.postimg.org/xekw3a5dz/FB_IMG_1479785481994.jpg I heard rumors that he governor's office was at a complete loss on how to handle the protest. One meeting was nothing but Dalrymple's staff complaining about the protest and talking in circles. No one had any ideas on how to proceed in the summer. I haven't heard of anything new there, but it appears that North Dakota is trying to sell these protests as threats to public safety. I received an emergency notification on my phone that a protest was taking place in Bismarck, for example. The police actions on 11/19 are probably not going to be the worst of the year.
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Nov 22, 2016 14:10
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LiterallyTheWurst posted:http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-dakota-access-pipeline-protests-20161121-story.html drat, that's terrible. I hope she recovers.
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Nov 22, 2016 14:53
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I think it would be less of a pr nightmare if the police just took everybody in rather than prolonging everything like they are now. The State gains nothing by delaying and would be better off taking everyone in one police action, then allowing the pipeline to finish.
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Nov 22, 2016 15:38
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wateroverfire posted:drat, that's terrible. I hope she recovers. Last time I checked you don't regrow arms. I could be wrong, admittedly, it's been a while since I looked into armregrowth technology Elendil004 posted:I think it would be less of a pr nightmare if the police just took everybody in rather than prolonging everything like they are now. The State gains nothing by delaying and would be better off taking everyone in one police action, then allowing the pipeline to finish. There are thousands of people there
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Nov 22, 2016 17:58
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Not only would it be impossible to arrest thousands, it would be impossible to hold everyone in cells and prosecute them. ND was already struggling with its finances thanks to free market fuckwits, crashing oil prices, and huge infrastructure costs. The ND state bank has loaned out 10 million dollars to ND law enforcement due to the protest, and that number will keep rising.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:34
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Liquid Communism posted:I see you came by that big red title honestly. Goy any more authoritarianism to shill for while you're here?  Elendil004 posted:I think it would be less of a pr nightmare if the police just took everybody in rather than prolonging everything like they are now.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:58
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I'm skeptical about this "we just have to delay the pipe until year's end" theory. Sure it'd hurt if Energy Partners couldn't ship oil at the intended prices, but surely operating the pipeline at all would offset costs better than just letting billions in construction costs sit unused?wateroverfire posted:What is all that debris up by the police line? Looks like two piles of it. My understanding is that after a few protestors burned construction equipment back in October the bridge was blocked using concrete barricades and burned out vehicles (I don't know if they were burned by the protestors) to prevent that from happening again. The protestors decided to take it upon themselves to used a semi to drag the obstructions away from the bridge. Since it was the most direct route from the protest camp to the construction site, the police were having none of that.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:59
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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LiterallyTheWurst posted:Not only would it be impossible to arrest thousands, it would be impossible to hold everyone in cells and prosecute them. ND was already struggling with its finances thanks to free market fuckwits, crashing oil prices, and huge infrastructure costs. The ND state bank has loaned out 10 million dollars to ND law enforcement due to the protest, and that number will keep rising. They only have to clear them out so the pipeline can be completed, no? Just round everyone up and stick them in fenced off camps while the wheels of justice slowly turn. I come down pretty firmly on the side of the protesters (though some good points have been made about the exact positions of the pipeline and the native american's poor efforts to engage with the pipeline people) but I am just curious as to why the gov't hasn't just handled it...I am sure most of the cops there would love to go full military. Civilized Fishbot posted:
I find this hard to compare to Waco for all sorts of reasons.
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Nov 22, 2016 19:13
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wateroverfire posted:drat, that's terrible. I hope she recovers. either way it's a horrible shitshow and I have a sinking feeling that it's just going to be a meatgrinder until either the protestors are all in the hospital, or something gives in. I really hope the companies funding DAPl have to foot most of the bill for this use of force and equipment, because I sure as poo poo know that if a thousand people camped out on my land I wouldn't have a half-dozen MRAPs out there disbursing them for me for free
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Nov 22, 2016 19:32
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Elendil004 posted:They only have to clear them out so the pipeline can be completed, no? Just round everyone up and stick them in fenced off camps while the wheels of justice slowly turn. Tias posted:The federal government is not 'someone', they're occupying their own ancestral land. If you build a fire where you're not supposed to, the authorities can probably charge you with anything from camping without a permit to attempted arson, depending on how frisky they are feeling.
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Nov 22, 2016 19:35
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Elendil004 posted:I come down pretty firmly on the side of the protesters (though some good points have been made about the exact positions of the pipeline and the native american's poor efforts to engage with the pipeline people) but I am just curious as to why the gov't hasn't just handled it...I am sure most of the cops there would love to go full military. More than likely no one - cops included - really wants to be responsible for an action that results in casualties. Everyone in charge is probably hoping to maintain status quo and hold the line while the company quietly finishes the project so that everyone can go home and the company and any aggrieved parties can fight it out in court where no one is likely to get shot.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:25
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While it's possible that's a Freudian slip... T and Y are right next to one another on the keyboard.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:34
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So the construction is progressing? I was under the impression it was halted at the point of protest.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:54
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Dead Reckoning posted:Which brings us back to the point that an expansive definition of "ancestral land" is an absurdity with no basis in law or precedent. Deferring to strict legalism is a great way to justify oppression without feeling like an rear end in a top hat. That law and precedent was brought in at gunpoint and maintained at gunpoint. At some point, while you can't undo the crimes that happened 150 years ago, you have to find a way forward that probably involves renegotiating the terms of the conquest in a way that is beneficial to the survivors of the conquest. Falling back on a strict reading of our laws and precedent isn't going to move anything forward.
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Nov 22, 2016 21:02
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coyo7e posted:The police department claims it ...was probably an IED made by protestors What the absolute gently caress? Is there a link for them making this outrageous claim?
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Nov 22, 2016 21:04
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Nebalebadingdong posted:What the absolute gently caress? Is there a link for them making this outrageous claim? LiterallyTheWurst's link to the LA times. quote:Herr suggested that the woman may have been injured while protesters were “rigging up their own explosives” — propane bottles to be thrown at police. None of those propane bottles exploded, and “the only explosion the officers heard was on the protesters’ side,” Herr said.
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Nov 22, 2016 21:13
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I'm skeptical. If the Cops knew they were making IEDs they'd be raiding them right now. I'd be more apt to suspect a smoke/tear gas grenade that detonated badly.
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Nov 22, 2016 21:31
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Conventional tear gas and smoke grenades don't detonate and don't contain explosives, so probably not that.
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Nov 22, 2016 21:44
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The police also initially lied about shooting the crowd with water.
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Nov 22, 2016 21:47
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Dead Reckoning posted:Conventional tear gas and smoke grenades don't detonate and don't contain explosives, so probably not that. Still doesn't mean they were making IEDs. That's an incredibly bold claim.
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Nov 22, 2016 21:52
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Hmm, a small propane 1 lb gallon propane bottle held under your arm might do that, but there'd be shrapnel hitting other people and poo poo, it'd probably kill you imho. Propane bottles are designed to NOT explode randomly from ruptures and impacts, and it's not easy to like, stick a fuse in them. The chances of being that close to a propane cylinder which was literally being heated up over a fire or something for a period of time (perhaps a road flare? :sci101: ) are pretty slim unless she was literally trying to jockey around for a good shot with a lit propane bomb. Extraordinarily unlikely imho On the other hand http://imgur.com/gallery/2YIni Dead Reckoning posted:Conventional tear gas and smoke grenades don't detonate and don't contain explosives, so probably not that. (also note that the info in that lethality link is suspect, because "On May 28, 2014, a 19-month-old baby boy's face was severely burned and mutilated when a stun grenade was thrown into his playpen by a SWAT team looking for drugs in a Cornelia, Georgia home. The baby survived with facial disfigurement.[15]" the damage also caused one of the baby's lungs collapsing and some serious damage to his abdomen as well. http://abcnews.go.com/US/family-toddler-injured-swat-grenade-faces-1m-medical/story?id=27671521 you can clearly see or read about the bandages and damage to his chest and lung in most other sources) quote:What they didn’t realize at the time was that the blast from the flash-bang grenade severely burned Bou Bou’s face and torso and collapsed his left lung. Alecia says the officers wouldn’t allow her to see her child before he was whisked away in an ambulance. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 01:55
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The IED factory can be found at Tipi #7, just past the Dress Barn and opposite the Kroll's Kitchen. ND journalists are notorious for not rocking the boat, so I expect this IED claim will be published and taken at face value by most ND residents. Every post that I have found regarding this woman had referred to a concussion grenade, not tear gas or smoke. These things are meant to explode in a controlled fashion that makes a loud noise. It was a SWAT concussion grenade that seriously injured a toddler a few years ago. One poster suggest that the police should try to seal protestors in an area away from construction. That is what led to the events in 11/19. The police had some burned out military vehicles blocking access to a previously occupied site, and the protestors attempted to open up the road. Ultimately, the police are going to clash with protestors if they oppose and delay the pipeline. There is no way around that. Finally, anyone that is puzzled by the seeming lack of Lakota opposition to this pipeline should have a look at the fight against drilling at Killdeer Mountain. It's a sacred site to the Lakota and the location of a massive battle between the US Army and the Lakota following the massacres in Minnesota. The opposition did everything by the book, but drilling was approved there because delaying the drilling "would leave 3.5 million barrels of oil and waste $250 million." I guess Bakken Shale has an expiration date. Drilling was allowed to happen right over a site that had yielded some interesting artifacts in a survey. But no worries, Dalrymple and friends asked the company to haul fill dirt to the site rather than dig it from that very spot. http://m.bismarcktribune.com/bakken...19bb2963f4.html Of course, Dalrymple took hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from oil and is allowed to move those directly to his bank account with no oversight. ND politics are sleazy as hell and ND citizens are extremely racist. This protest was the best option available for Standing Rock. LiterallyTheWurst fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 02:09
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quote:the police had some burned out military vehicles blocking access Dare I even ask how they got burned out in the first place?
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Nov 23, 2016 04:07
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DeusExMachinima posted:Dare I even ask how they got burned out in the first place? I heard nothing about burned-out vehicles being used to block this particular bridge in the last few days though - the hoses and conc grenades and rubber bullets were supposedly deployed when the protestors tried to clear away a blockade from a bridge but I heard no indications that it was the same bridge that protestors burnt barriers on previously, or that they lit anything on the bridge on fire - drone footage certainly doesn't look like there's much in the way of vehicles or material on the bridge. Please let me know if and when I'm mistaken on any of this because that's about the best info I've been able to piece together from a buttload of media sources in the last couple weeks - a lot of sources (even "MSM" ones) seem to be radically minimizing the injuries - my local paper had a DAPL story in the bottom corner of the front page today and it read "200 protestors treated for hypothermia after clash with authorities in sub-freezing weather - policeman injured". coyo7e fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 04:15
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A good background piece from the Smithsonian on some of the fuckery that went on with the US claiming the Black Hills in the first place. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ulysses-grant-launched-illegal-war-plains-indians-180960787/
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Nov 23, 2016 07:09
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Elendil004 posted:They only have to clear them out so the pipeline can be completed, no? Just round everyone up and stick them in fenced off camps while the wheels of justice slowly turn. Because the feds don't want to be liable for the body count. This has gotten enough attention that going full on Battle of Blair Mountain isn't going to play out well in the media. inkblot posted:While it's possible that's a Freudian slip... T and Y are right next to one another on the keyboard. Yeah, just a phone posting typo. That's been fixed now.
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Nov 23, 2016 10:11
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Xae posted:A good background piece from the Smithsonian on some of the fuckery that went on with the US claiming the Black Hills in the first place. This is a really good read. Sad to see that DAPL is really just more variations on a theme.
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Nov 23, 2016 10:38
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Dead Reckoning posted:Which brings us back to the point that an expansive definition of "ancestral land" is an absurdity with no basis in law or precedent. Lol, it only took you one line to claim that basis in law is important, to proving why it isn't. The people in power are feeling frisky, that's why US citizens have their arms blown up with grenades over a piece of dirt  People with money want that pipeline built, therefore the law will be circumvented to make that happen. That's the only precedent that matters in a nation that worships wealth. Tias fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 11:08
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LiterallyTheWurst posted:Drilling was allowed to happen right over a site that had yielded some interesting artifacts in a survey. But no worries, Dalrymple and friends asked the company to haul fill dirt to the site rather than dig it from that very spot. How in the flying gently caress did that fly past NAGPRA, ARPA and NHPA?
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Nov 23, 2016 11:18
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KiteAuraan posted:How in the flying gently caress did that fly past NAGPRA, ARPA and NHPA? 
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Nov 23, 2016 11:26
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I have this feeling like getting hard, factual information about what is going on at DAPL is especially challenging. So many disparate, contradicting accounts. Can someone who feels more confident in the facts tell me: am I mistaken or does the company building the pipeline not have all the necessary permits to build, specifically from the army corp of engineers? If so, how are they allowed to build? What is the official line on why a project without the necessary permits is allowed to proceed, and vigorously protected while doing so, no less?
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Nov 23, 2016 11:43
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Mainstream media blackout and harassment of reporters have been a mainstay of the protests since the start, so I can only point you towards what I'm reasonably sure is correct: Prior to work starting, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of Interior, and the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation asked the ACoE to conduct a formal Environmental Impact Assessment and issue an Environmental Impact Statement, which I assume is some kind of assessment as to whether it is acceptable to pursue construction. However, in July, the CoE approved the water crossings using something called a "fast track option", which I don't know what is, but set the shits behind the DAP moving, siccing attack dogs and using clubs and tear gas on protestors. Since then construction has been underway in the areas protestors were removed from in September. On November 14, the The Army Corps of Engineers said it needed more time to study the impact of the plan. In a news release they said: “The Army has determined that additional discussion and analysis are warranted in light of the history of the Great Sioux Nation’s dispossessions of lands, the importance of Lake Oahe to the Tribe, our government-to-government relationship, and the statute governing easements through government property." While that sounds great, it doesn't seem to have actually stopped the construction. There is no "official line", only media blackout and propaganda campaigns about how the protestors are dumb and hate progress. E: while digging the dates up, I found out the protests have a rather good, though not comprehensive, wikipedia page!
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Nov 23, 2016 12:11
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