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If you take a look at photos of people who've been injured by flashbangs, like that kid in the crib a while back, flashbangs leave burn wounds. Potentially very severe ones. They don't blast open your arm down to the bone. Something else caused that and whether the cops were throwing lethal grenades or the girl had an explosive device, someone made a really bad decision.coyo7e posted:I've heard zero information about police or military or emergency response vehicles being messed with however it does seem as though more than that one truck owned by the DAPL companies like the one the crazy pool-wading dude with the AR (which was definitely lit on fire after that, to my knowledge, and I think a few more were within the next few days) drove, got torched. I only noticed this though because I was specifically searching to see if there'd been any sabotage of the big expensive construction equipment past having someone chain themselves to it - and there's almost nothing to indicate property damage outside of a few pickup trucks which seem to've gone up in smoke immediately after that guy with the AR went on his mini rampage. According to an article I read on Truth-Out (I know, I know) protestors did burn those vehicles to block the bridge back in October to prevent police access to their camps. Now they're complaining that it's forcing emergency services to divert around the most direct path and the cops are saying the bridge is closed (amongst other reasons) because it may be structurally unsafe due to damage sustained. Good loving job planning ahead and totally not shooting yourselves in the foot, guys.
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Nov 23, 2016 14:15
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Gozinbulx posted:I have this feeling like getting hard, factual information about what is going on at DAPL is especially challenging. So many disparate, contradicting accounts. IIRC the only thing the Army Corps of Engineers has any say over is the water crossing, and the rest of the project is permitted.
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Nov 23, 2016 14:20
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DeusExMachinima posted:If you take a look at photos of people who've been injured by flashbangs, like that kid in the crib a while back, flashbangs leave burn wounds. Potentially very severe ones. They don't blast open your arm down to the bone. Something else caused that and whether the cops were throwing lethal grenades or the girl had an explosive device, someone made a really bad decision. According to the protestors, grenade pieces have been removed from her arm during surgery and are being saved for legal proceedings.
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Nov 23, 2016 14:26
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What are the legalities behind using flashbangs and hoses on a crowd? Do they actually have a case? If so, What is the legal way to solve "Hey leave our construction site" "Uhh no i wont".?
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Nov 23, 2016 14:27
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botany posted:According to the protestors, grenade pieces have been removed from her arm during surgery and are being saved for legal proceedings. That should be interesting then. But TBH unless I see proof otherwise I'm leaning towards the malfunctioning IED explanation. Professionally-manufactured lethal grenades have a pretty repeatable blast radius so she'd have to have been simultaneously standing away from others and also far enough away from ground zero to only be injured instead of outright killed along with other people. MattD1zzl3 posted:What are the legalities behind using flashbangs and hoses on a crowd? Do they actually have a case? If so, What is the legal way to solve "Hey leave our construction site" "Uhh no i wont".? It's more a question of proportionality and good judgment here than legality. Hoses are legally OK AFAIK but most everyone avoids use of it due to their image from civil rights marches. The cops are claiming that they used the hoses primarily to put out fires. Flashbangs, tasers, CS, batons, rubber bullets, etc etc are also OK as they are less-lethal devices. If you're trespassing or starting fires on someone else's property (and there is no exception for wanting to stay warm or make tea) you're gonna get a response.
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Nov 23, 2016 14:37
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I don't think it is reasonable to expect that people who are engaged in violent protest won't sustain injuries or even casualties when clashing with police, or to expect police to abandon their posts rather than injure violent protesters. It sucks that people are getting hurt but they're putting themselves in harm's way and no one is forcing them to do that.
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Nov 23, 2016 14:41
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wateroverfire posted:IIRC the only thing the Army Corps of Engineers has any say over is the water crossing, and the rest of the project is permitted. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 23, 2016 14:46
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DeusExMachinima posted:Dare I even ask how they got burned out in the first place? http://www.inforum.com/news/north-dakota/4146976-clash-near-cannon-ball-subsides-protesters-law-enforcement-report I wish I had a better play by play of 11/19, but this article does mention that some protesters tried to remove those burned vehicles from the road. http://www.inforum.com/news/4163612-26-dapl-protesters-seriously-injured-tense-standoff-police The police are saying they saw 3 people hiding with propane tanks, an explosion went off near those people, and one was carried away. Of course, the police also claimed to hear protestors say, "We are willing to die for this,” and “We get paid for this.” The camp said that shrapnel from the woman's wound was recovered and saved. We might be able to get a clear answer from the shrapnel. http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/news/Propane-cylinders-recovered-at-explosion-site-of-DAPL-protest-402544435.html
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Nov 23, 2016 14:57
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DeusExMachinima posted:That should be interesting then. But TBH unless I see proof otherwise I'm leaning towards the malfunctioning IED explanation. That certainly is a conclusion, but I have to say you're wrong. The protestors act only under orders from tribal elders, who have expressly forbid taking offensive violent action against the security contractors. These people stared down and disarmed a provocateur who had raised an AR-15 at them without raising their voices, if you think they would build an IED for the hell of it you're making an insane assumption, really. Also, there seems to be consensus among people present that the screws fired concussion grenades at them, which can and did explode. I'll bet you that this is what happened. Gobbeldygook posted:The only permit they still need is from the Army Corps of Engineers. Contrary to the mythology of the protesters, the company is not going to be irreparably harmed if it's delayed through January. The next set of hearings is already scheduled for January 3rd, so nothing is happening until then. The protesters aren't accomplishing poo poo by wallowing in the cold except making themselves feel good because they're TAKING A STAND! If you must persist in your passive agressive authoritarian cock gargling, could you do it outside this thread please?
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Nov 23, 2016 15:01
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Tias posted:If you must persist in your passive agressive authoritarian cock gargling, could you do it outside this thread please?
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Nov 23, 2016 15:04
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Gobbeldygook posted:I'm sorry you don't like facts in your ~safe space~. They're not facts, you're gargling cop semen because you're literally too dumb to accept anything but authoritarian narratives. I feel sorry for you, but please,  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 23, 2016 15:08
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Tias posted:The protestors act only under orders from tribal elders IDK man. You don't have to go far back to find accounts of violence by protesters. For instance: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dakota-access-pipeline-protesters-removed_us_58123b0ee4b0990edc2fb009 It seems like a stretch to claim they have much cohesive leadership when tons of people are from out of state and/or not connected with the tribe at all.
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Nov 23, 2016 15:11
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Tias posted:That certainly is a conclusion, but I have to say you're wrong. The protestors act only under orders from tribal elders, who have expressly forbid taking offensive violent action against the security contractors. It's not a conclusion, it's a suspicion. I respect the elders for their non-violence but come on, it's not impossible for someone to independently decide to do things their own way. Tias posted:the screws fired concussion grenades at them, which can and did explode. Just shut the gently caress up. If the police used flashbangs then no, they do not have the ability to create that kind of wound. Flashbangs use a magnesium mix to achieve their effect and it can cause (potentially very serious) burn wounds. That woman's arm is a blast wound.
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Nov 23, 2016 15:12
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There's plenty of evidence of the police using less-lethal weapons on the protesters including rubber bullets, tear gas, and water cannons. There's been no physical or photographed evidence of the protestors using IED's. Just police claims that the cops couldn't possibly have been responsible for injuring a woman using a less-lethal weapon. I'd say the onus of proof was on the police.
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Nov 23, 2016 15:29
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DeusExMachinima posted:Just shut the gently caress up. If the police used flashbangs then no, they do not have the ability to create that kind of wound. Flashbangs use a magnesium mix to achieve their effect and it can cause (potentially very serious) burn wounds. That woman's arm is a blast wound. --- WaPo has some good reporting quote:Wilansky’s father, Wayne Wilansky, said his daughter was hurt when law enforcement threw a grenade. The Morton County Sheriff’s Office maintains authorities did not use concussion grenades or any devices that produce a flash or bang during a clash late Sunday and early Monday near the camp along the pipeline route in southern North Dakota where protesters have gathered for months.
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Nov 23, 2016 15:38
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RandomPauI posted:There's plenty of evidence of the police using less-lethal weapons on the protesters including rubber bullets, tear gas, and water cannons. There's been no physical or photographed evidence of the protestors using IED's. Hmm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-uM_VWPW_w http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/news/Propane-cylinders-recovered-at-explosion-site-of-DAPL-protest-402544435.html From the story linked above posted:MORTON COUNTY, N.D. (Valley News Live) – Law enforcement say they are investigating the use of homemade explosives at a Dakota Access Pipeline (DAPL) protest. They have recovered weapons and are investigating whether or not they are related to injuries a female protester suffered.
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Nov 23, 2016 15:40
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DeusExMachinima posted:It's not a conclusion, it's a suspicion. I respect the elders for their non-violence but come on, it's not impossible for someone to independently decide to do things their own way. So because it's not a flashbang injury, you choose to believe it's an IED. Gotcha, we're done here. wateroverfire posted:Hmm. Have you ever been charged with possession or use of molotov cocktails? I have. Because cops found empty wine bottles with wax candles in them. In the same building I had been in at one point. Police lying to cover their own ineptitude is the rule rather than the exception, so forgive me for not being convinced.
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Nov 23, 2016 16:59
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Tias posted:Have you ever been charged with possession or use of molotov cocktails? I have. Because cops found empty wine bottles with wax candles in them. In the same building I had been in at one point. Police lying to cover their own ineptitude is the rule rather than the exception, so forgive me for not being convinced. So, in your opinion, in the video I linked, what is the bright flaming thing that arcs over the bridge from the protester side and seems to explode near the cops?
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Nov 23, 2016 17:09
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wateroverfire posted:IDK man. You don't have to go far back to find accounts of violence by protesters. For instance: Shine on you crazy diamond
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Nov 23, 2016 17:12
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What do you think the bang part is if not an explosion  Do you know what physics is
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Nov 23, 2016 17:11
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wateroverfire posted:So, in your opinion, in the video I linked, what is the bright flaming thing that arcs over the bridge from the protester side and seems to explode near the cops? Most likely an incendiary device. I fail to see why this does not make Morton PDs claim to have "received information that protesters were using one-pound propane cylinders as explosives" anything other than a steaming pile of made-up poo poo. In a media blackout environment like the one at the protest, the cops are going to manufacture intel and justification for their actions like crazy, or else they're going to break with time-honoured tradition.
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Nov 23, 2016 17:12
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Just go on the wiki page for a handy list of examples of people receiving blast injuries from flash bangs
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Nov 23, 2016 17:13
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Also I have literally never in my life laid eyes on a silver propane tank of any size. Maybe it's a Midwest thing?
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Nov 23, 2016 17:16
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XMNN posted:Just go on the wiki page for a handy list of examples of people receiving blast injuries from flash bangs Naw man DEM has played every call of duty and flashbangs only deal 1 point of impact damage and no blast damage
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Nov 23, 2016 17:18
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in which we pretend that setting off a charge containing ammonium perchlorate to create a bang in fact creates no sort of overpressure whatsoever on the basis of ???
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Nov 23, 2016 17:26
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XMNN posted:in which we pretend that setting off a charge containing ammonium perchlorate to create a bang in fact creates no sort of overpressure whatsoever on the basis of ??? Don't you understand physics? 
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Nov 23, 2016 17:34
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Tias posted:Most likely an incendiary device. I fail to see why this does not make Morton PDs claim to have "received information that protesters were using one-pound propane cylinders as explosives" anything other than a steaming pile of made-up poo poo. Video of protesters throwing homemade incendiary devices at police does honestly make it more believable that some protesters are doing dumb things with homemade explosives and molotov coctails and etc, yeah. Tias posted:In a media blackout environment like the one at the protest, the cops are going to manufacture intel and justification for their actions like crazy, or else they're going to break with time-honoured tradition. There seems to be a ton of media coverage of the protest...
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Nov 23, 2016 17:40
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DeusExMachinima posted:If you take a look at photos of people who've been injured by flashbangs, like that kid in the crib a while back, flashbangs leave burn wounds. Potentially very severe ones. They don't blast open your arm down to the bone. Something else caused that and whether the cops were throwing lethal grenades or the girl had an explosive device, someone made a really bad decision. There were several vehicles burned, as barricades, when the War Camp was descending upon the Sacred Ground camp to evict us for 'tresspassing.' There was one DAPL worker who drove near camp that day. A crowd of people blocked one lane of traffic; my friend Silent Bob was in a vehicle going the other way and cut off the other lane. The truck ran off the road, and then someone in a Caddy hit him, disabling the vehicle. The DAPL employee got out of the car with an AR. Tom, a veteran and native, then talked him down and saved us all from a shooting. Some Sacred Stoners doused that vehicle in gasoline, after the BIA picked up the DAPL guy (they released him; they don't have jurisdiction beyond the rez line). Another friend of mine, seeing that they doused it and did not light it, tossed a lit match that way. Earlier that day, Felicia watched as Red Warrior folk built a barricade of hay, straw, and tree limbs. She pled with them to use a different approach, as they poured petrol on the pyre. She took a seat on the hay bales, soaked in gasoline, in protest of the tactic. She was pulled away by two women. She was looking out the rear window of a car, driving away, when she saw the flames go up. The War Camp cleared /all/ of our barricades up to the south bridge; they then left our barricade there, and used it as an excuse to shut down the road. Make no mistake, that road could easily be open if the War Camp opened it. The Barricade there now is a Turret they set up on the north side of that bridge. That bridge was always their objective, that day, and they've held it since. They don't want traffic on that road. Mike has a massive big-rig, a peterbuilt, and has spent the past several nights approaching that bridge with chains, in an effort to clear the barricades. He's got an 'if you aren't going to clear it, we can and will!' attitude. The road is not closed due to us. The War Camp wants to keep the objective, and hold that bridge strategically. Once the river there freezes, though, there will be a long front. It proved terribly inconvenient a few nights after they evicted Sacred Ground, when some Sacred Stoner lit the hill across from camp. We watched a few dozen acres burn. Some of the dudes from my camp went up (late in the morning) with wet blankets to fight the fire. A couple vets from the other side came out and helped too. There have been 3 field fires around camp; they've not deployed their water canon to fight /any/ of them. Bismark and Mandan are unable to send fire vehicles, because 1806 is under the War Camp's control. The Water Canon has been used exclusively to spray water on peaceful, prayerful protesters in freezing conditions. I was there myself, and had my first dance with tear gas. They're digging under the river now. It'll likely be done in a few days. Uglycat fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 19:09
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DeusExMachinima posted:That should be interesting then. But TBH unless I see proof otherwise I'm leaning towards the malfunctioning IED explanation. It was definitely /not/ an IED. The Hose is /not/ being used to put out a fire; it's being used to punish us for praying on the bridge, because they fear a invasion. When we step over the rails on the bridge, approaching the other side, they deploy tear gas. I've not myself yet seen their protocol for deploying rubber bullets. I did watch a bunch of water protectors, in a stream, when it was about 34 degrees out, getting maced. Our navy - a couple canoes and a kayak - would grab the people who were struggling (the cops on the other side were pointing them out to our guys) and drag them back to our shore. We had a chain of warm blankets arriving, and built a bonfire - though standing naked in front of a bonfire while wet and cold is less than pleasant when you're covered in bear mace. Uglycat fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 19:14
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Gobbeldygook posted:I'm sorry you don't like facts in your ~safe space~. Your facts aren't. Seriously, are you a paid DAPL shill? You're *way* off, and stupid to boot. edit: Care packages can be sent to: Leprechaun Wounded Knee Kitchen P.O. box 122 Solen, ND 58570 I'm in the Wild Oglala Camp.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:20
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I have some experience with building in protected/environmentally sensitive areas, including over water, and never proceeded with any building until the ACoE gave the all clear. Running afoul of any government institution can be very costly and my worst nightmare, but then again I'm not some huge petrochemical company with friends in high places so they probably know they can get away with it. So there was no environmental impact study done? That seems like the primary reason why these peoples' concerns are legitimate to say the least.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:24
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wateroverfire posted:Hmm. I appreciate the info, that's unfortunate. I'm still not convinced that the injury was due to a molotov cocktail or a propane tank explosion. It's my understanding that the injuries would be burns and shrapnel over a wide area rather than a chunk of flesh missing. Still potentially lethal of course, just diffferent types of injuries.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:24
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for further evidence that small charges of magnesium and perchlorate designed to produce a bright light and a loud bang can mutilate hands, why not visit your local hospital on or about your culturally appropriate date for getting really drunk and setting off shitloads of fireworks
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Nov 23, 2016 19:38
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wateroverfire posted:IDK man. You don't have to go far back to find accounts of violence by protesters. For instance: There is /not/ cohesive leadership. Red Warrior is camp security. They have been asked by Standing Rock to leave. There's a variety of other groups at play too; each camp has their own elders, there's the AIM crowd, there's Rainbow, there's Occupy and Burner folk... it's pretty much an autonomous zone - but people /do not/ disrespect the elders.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:44
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Gozinbulx posted:I have some experience with building in protected/environmentally sensitive areas, including over water, and never proceeded with any building until the ACoE gave the all clear. Running afoul of any government institution can be very costly and my worst nightmare, but then again I'm not some huge petrochemical company with friends in high places so they probably know they can get away with it. quote:The Standing Rock Sioux Tribe (SRST) and other tribal governments object to the pipeline and its alignment because the proposed route crosses under Lake Oahe a few miles upstreamof the SRST water intakes. Tribes are concerned that a leak or rupture would contaminate the river, including the SRST's drinking water. The tribes argue the District did not adequately consult on the DAPL pipeline alignment. The EA establishes that the District made a good faith effort to consult with the tribes and that it considered all tribal comments. In addition, the pipeline will be located under Lake Oahe, and Dakota Access has developed response and action plans, and will include several monitoring systems, shut-off valves and other safety features to minimize the risk of spills and reduce or remediate any potential damages.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:48
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XMNN posted:Just go on the wiki page for a handy list of examples of people receiving blast injuries from flash bangs Get ready for pain.jpg! Flashbang contact injury, third degree burns:  Second degree burn:  Now compare to SR woman: http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/sophi...rm-bomb-photos/ XMNN posted:in which we pretend that setting off a charge containing ammonium perchlorate to create a bang in fact creates no sort of overpressure whatsoever on the basis of ??? It's true that flashbangs *can* pulverise fingers and require amputation of the hand in severe cases. There's been plenty of dumbass cops who've pulled the pin, let the spoon go, and then held it for too long. They have very short fuses. But you lose your hand in the hospital because it's been burnt to a crisp and then they cut it off, not because the flashbang blew it off outright. As for what they do in contact to thicker body structures such as limbs, you're looking at it. But hey, if you've got a confirmed picture of some's arm hanging loosely off the bone like that woman as the documented result of a flashbang I'd be very interested in seeing it.
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Nov 23, 2016 20:49
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Uglycat posted:There were several vehicles burned, as barricades, when the War Camp was descending upon the Sacred Ground camp to evict us for 'tresspassing.' I assume War Camp are the cops? As for trespassing, I've never been clear on this. Are your camps on tribal land and the pipeline is across the river?
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Nov 23, 2016 20:52
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It is loving hilarious to me that there are actual, real life people in this thread who, in a conflict between protestors and US cops, assume that it's the cops who are telling the truth.
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Nov 23, 2016 21:09
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DeusExMachinima posted:It's true that flashbangs *can* pulverise fingers and require amputation of the hand in severe cases. There's been plenty of dumbass cops who've pulled the pin, let the spoon go, and then held it for too long. They have very short fuses. But you lose your hand in the hospital because it's been burnt to a crisp and then they cut it off, not because the flashbang blew it off outright. As for what they do in contact to thicker body structures such as limbs, you're looking at it.  http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e91_1390339050 The explosion occurs at 1:15. Starting at about 2:50 you can see what looks like exposed bone where his finger-flesh used to be, plus a lot of his flesh is just gone.
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Nov 23, 2016 21:10
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xrunner posted:Deferring to strict legalism is a great way to justify oppression without feeling like an rear end in a top hat. That law and precedent was brought in at gunpoint and maintained at gunpoint. At some point, while you can't undo the crimes that happened 150 years ago, you have to find a way forward that probably involves renegotiating the terms of the conquest in a way that is beneficial to the survivors of the conquest. Falling back on a strict reading of our laws and precedent isn't going to move anything forward. Gozinbulx posted:Can someone who feels more confident in the facts tell me: am I mistaken or does the company building the pipeline not have all the necessary permits to build, specifically from the army corp of engineers? If so, how are they allowed to build? What is the official line on why a project without the necessary permits is allowed to proceed, and vigorously protected while doing so, no less? The tribe has argued that, since the pipeline would not be built without the 209 crossings, the ACoE should do an environmental and cultural review of the entire pipeline, one during which they would be required to consult tribes again, rather than just reviewing the crossings. The courts have rejected this idea.
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Nov 23, 2016 21:11
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