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I just think you run into trouble when trusting any astrological system over the will of God. I'm a scientist so I have a visceral, negative reaction to anything astrological. I think that the various astrological systems of world religions developed for a reason. Maybe it's helpful to organize your thought patterns in such a way. But it's not at all predictive. Your birth sign means absolutely nothing and your weekly horoscope is some generic bullshit. It's like dieting. No matter what the diet you choose, you'll lose weight if you stick to it for the simple fact that you're paying close attention to what you're eating and your exercise. If you're working at it and paying attention, you'll get results. Horoscopes means nothing. e: I mean, guess my zodiac sign based on my posting. Should be easy if it's truly predictive, right? Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Nov 25, 2016 |
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Ceciltron posted:On the topic of astrology and divination, I know that, with absolute certainty in a fairly certain sense, "what is not of God is of the Devil". This isn't a question of using reason or logic to discern natural laws, but rather of esoterism and secrecy to uncover hidden meanings. What is less open to us, and plainly visible to all, than the redemptive sacrifice of Christ and the Holy Scripture? The contrast, necessarily, is that anything that is hidden, requiring hidden knowledge, that it may give you an advantage of knowledge or power over others, is necessarily suspect. If there is knowledge worth having, it ought to be shared freely with others, and be easily proven or disproven according to the laws that govern God's Creation. I don't think hidden=bad holds. Most of modern science and even technology is pretty hidden to the average person and yet here we are, using it to communicate. If astrology works, shouldn't it realistically be in the same category as predicting the weather from satellite data? Old testament rules against it don't count, unless you're a Jew for Jesus I guess. You'd have to find out why it's forbidden, and figure out if that reason still applies to modern forms. I don't know if astrology works, maybe some forms of it do. Horoscopes in newspapers aren't reliable, but then again they're generally not astrology. Pellisworth, I wish you all the best! Don't lose hope.
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Nov 25, 2016 08:24
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pidan posted:Pellisworth, I wish you all the best! Don't lose hope. Thanks Liturgigoons, but pray for those most vulnerable of us. I am not among them, honestly, and would rather all your effort and thought be directed toward American immigrants, transgendered people, and Muslims right now. It is a lot easier to discriminate against groups without legal protection than those who have no legal status. I at least have some rights; many don't, including a large share of posters in this thread. poo poo's gonna get bad in the short to mid-term. It will get a lot worse in the long-term due to climate change, Donald Trump will be an amusing sidenote compared to the climate apocalypse we're facing a few decades out. There's my realtalk for the week, Happy Thanksgiving liturgigoons and what's the status of our Secret Santa program? Did I miss it? Because I'd like to be on that gig. I gladly patronize local Lakota artists back home, if you get a dreamcatcher, quillwork, or star quilt that's me 
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Nov 25, 2016 08:39
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Caufman posted:I like the list, but I see that it hasn't been updated. How about some worthwhile film recommendations from the last 20-ish years? Calvary has already been mentioned in this thread, and is an essential watch, imo. Larrain's The Club is another a great film dealing with a difficult topic. So is the 2008 adaptation of Doubt. Or, if you want something more light-hearted, go watch Man of Steel and marvel at all the Christian imagery.
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Nov 25, 2016 08:45
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pidan posted:Thank you Anecdotally, it has not been a widespread opinion from what I've seen. But every kind of evil remains available to every kind of person, even if they've professed a belief in the Good, or even in God. I don't even know if the sum total of my actions and their consequences (ie, my karma) will be all that virtuous and good for the world in the end. Only a god's valuation of that will mean anything. If this sort of questioning is important to you, I strongly recommend Viktor Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning and its more cerebral sequel, Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning. Frankl was a Jewish neurologist captured and placed in a Nazi concentration camp. His story reminds me of a modern-day Job. In it he talks about realizing the personal foundations of a will to meaning. An individual who knows their will to meaning can endure the temptations, challenges and sufferings that will no doubt happen in any life. And if they can align their individual will to meaning with a grander, ultimate meaning, it will further inform them on how they ought to act towards themselves and others. For a Christian, this involves taking up one's cross to love and be merciful to one's neighbors. Samuel Clemens posted:Calvary has already been mentioned in this thread, and is an essential watch, imo. Larrain's The Club is another a great film dealing with a difficult topic. So is the 2008 adaptation of Doubt. How about Of Gods And Men? And is anyone watching The Young Pope? Caufman fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Nov 25, 2016 |
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Nov 25, 2016 08:52
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Lutha Mahtin posted:
Weren't you the one chastising me about how I presented my fake horoscope app in the Android apps thread? C'mon, I'd like to hear more from HEY GAL on how she reconciles her belief in astrology with from what I know a complete rejection of the practice by all Orthodox churches.
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Nov 25, 2016 09:05
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Paladinus posted:C'mon, I'd like to hear more from HEY GAL on how she reconciles her belief in astrology with from what I know a complete rejection of the practice by all Orthodox churches. saying what is likely to happen or what might happen in certain situations given someone's personality, in my opinion, doesn't argue against the concept of free will since at no time does it say something is absolutely destined to happen. saying that h. clinton is "hidden and concealing; funds philanthropic organizations; ambitious and capable but her career will be scarred by ill-fortune" is an early modern version of an op-ed. also like Thirteen Orphans said about Chinese astrology, as a tool for introspection Western astrology/medicine/gem magic is kind of like a classical-to-early-modern kind of psychoanalysis. (which is the way it seems to have been used a lot of the time, if you look at the personal writings of early modern Western astrologers like Lilly.) does any of this have an observable effect on the world? maybe, maybe not, but neither does Jung. JcDent posted:HEY GAL believes the entirety of creation to be body of God, so it probably means something other to her. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Nov 25, 2016 |
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Nov 25, 2016 09:21
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Mr Enderby posted:Early modern history. Not even once.
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Nov 25, 2016 09:41
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HEY GAL posted:if the entire cosmos is an ordered system in which everything connects to everything else, then the position of the stars relative to the earth at the time of your birth had an effect on you since everything's relationship to everything else has some kind of effect on you. in my opinion, astrology is a distillation or systematization of the meaningful relationships to be found everywhere, a symbol, a way to order your thoughts. Okay, I see your general point, but here's a question. From how I see it, people used and still use stars and planets for divination because, essentially, it's a surviving pagan practice from the time people actually worshipped celestial bodies. Even if everything is connected and influences you on some level, why do you think that stars that are light years from you are more influential on what may happen in your life than, say, a car parked right outside your house? Wouldn't the place of your birth be more influential on your life than the placement of stars on that day? Wouldn't it make more sense to provide divinations based on what you have on your work desk, for example? This would also definitely be more in tune with seeing some astrological categories in terms of psychoanalysis. And like with many things, I don't think that not hurting others is enough of a justification, because often we can't really tell what effect some of our actions may have on us or others. Looking for personal signs from God in every aspect of existence sounds, sorry, borderline paranoid. The more you seek those signs, the more you believe them, the more you try to adjust your life to follow those signs from God, the higher the chance that one day those signs may point you toward something really harmful, and you won't be able to distinguish it from your own will. I'm sorry if this comes out a bit on the preachy side, but I have some personal experience with people who lost their mind, and consequently jobs and families, over astrology.
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Nov 25, 2016 09:50
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Paladinus posted:Okay, I see your general point, but here's a question. From how I see it, people used and still use stars and planets for divination because, essentially, it's a surviving pagan practice from the time people actually worshipped celestial bodies. Even if everything is connected and influences you on some level, why do you think that stars that are light years from you are more influential on what may happen in your life than, say, a car parked right outside your house? Wouldn't the place of your birth be more influential on your life than the placement of stars on that day? Wouldn't it make more sense to provide divinations based on what you have on your work desk, for example? This would also definitely be more in tune with seeing some astrological categories in terms of psychoanalysis. in fact, people look at what's around them for signs all the time, that's what omens are quote:And like with many things, I don't think that not hurting others is enough of a justification, because often we can't really tell what effect some of our actions may have on us or others. Looking for personal signs from God in every aspect of existence sounds, sorry, borderline paranoid. The more you seek those signs, the more you believe them, the more you try to adjust your life to follow those signs from God, the higher the chance that one day those signs may point you toward something really harmful, and you won't be able to distinguish it from your own will. edit: like when a guy in this thread asked whether he had a vocation to become a priest, i was the one who told him that it sounded like bullshit escapism in his case because he was dissatisfied with his real life and sought refuge in fantasy. i will be the first to admit that not everything that pops into your brain is a message from God. edit 2: i hope there is a whoooole lot of difference between my life and the South Korean President's Occultist Scandal, is what i am saying, which is complete madness. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Nov 25, 2016 |
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Nov 25, 2016 09:54
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HEY GAL posted:you could, but as far as i know nobody's developed a system about Stuff That's On Hegel's Desk. That would be Feng Shui. 
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Nov 25, 2016 10:09
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Here's an explanation from an occultist in the western tradition on how divination works according to that tradition. I don't know that it works, but the common objections are addressed well enough. I think when getting any religious or esoteric advice you should be careful that you're not getting scammed, and even if the advice is sincere it could just be wrong. I personally think predictive divination is a waste of time, but if you're just trying to select an auspicious date for something it can't hurt I guess.
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Nov 25, 2016 10:14
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For whatever my thoughts are this are worth, I think you can believe in all sorts of weird poo poo, as long as you remain clear that all worldly phenomena are God's creation. I feel the danger is when you start seeing things like fate and luck as out of God's hands, which is a fast route to pride and despair. Also, you should not be the occasion of sin in others, so I wouldn't pay for a psychic or medium or similar, if they were practising deciet rather than self-delusion. All that being said, tarot cards are cool and I like looking at them. And Newton was probably a faithful Christian, and definitely a better scientist than anyone in this thread, and he was bananas for this stuff.
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Nov 25, 2016 10:21
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Thirteen Orphans posted:That would be Feng Shui. 
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Nov 25, 2016 10:23
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Mr Enderby posted:For whatever my thoughts are this are worth, I think you can believe in all sorts of weird poo poo, as long as you remain clear that all worldly phenomena are God's creation. I feel the danger is when you start seeing things like fate and luck as out of God's hands, which is a fast route to pride and despair. Even if you consider everything as God's domain, it's still, in my opinion, dangerous to seek God's immediate and active presence in every aspect of your life. More often than not there are no signs, sometimes thing are just happening as a consequence of someone else exercising their free will. If you are want God to give you a cool custom sign composed of enormous gas giants across galaxies for what to wear today, you kind of put God to the test that is easily failable if something goes wrong because of the decision you made based on a perceived sign that you (or an astrologist) interpreted a certain way. It is more honest to just flip a coin embracing the relative randomness of the result, without thinking that God himself personally flips that coin with you and it lands in the best possible way that God intended to. Or if something bad happens out of the blue, and you start to blame God for not sending you a sign. And Newton was an avowed heretic! While it's a mistake to view medieval scientists as loony superstitious idiots, it's also a mistake, I think, to say that, well, it worked for them, so it will work for me. It was an important step in development of both science, and philosophy (and theology by extension) that shows there is no intrinsic conflict between religion and science, but it's just one step. Aristotle was a great philosopher, but his views on medicine, while historically important, are not always correct to put it mildly.
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Nov 25, 2016 11:24
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drat it goons, stop arguing about stars  It's probably easy for a heretic for me to say, but all denominations are marriages of convenience, and you are obeying the positions of your bishops, not your God. If hegel wants to use astrology, who gives a poo poo if it doesn't land her directly in hell somehow?pidan posted:Thank you You are  I grew up among people who openly shat on being good, reasoning that since there was no god and people are assholes who treat each other horribly, being on top is inherently better than being good. I have no idea if such positions are 'widespread', but it is a rather ambiguous term to begin with.Pellisworth posted:Thanks guys. This. I love and have sex with my own gender, but I'm way too affluent, male and white for it to cause me trouble any longer. People are being targeted just having brown skin and being muslim, imagine how quickly it goes downhill if you're LBGT as well.
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Nov 25, 2016 13:08
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Astrology doesn't just run into the problem of falsehood leading to sin. This is a valid issue, but, as St. John Damascene points out, belief that celestial bodies control us personally is a rejection of free will. St. Gregory of Nyssa concurs with this. St. Gregory the Great writes from a different but also interesting perspective, that "Man was not made for the stars, but rather the stars for man; and if a star can be called the ruler of man, then man must be considered the slave of his own servants." This is of course a reference to the creation of the world in Genesis.Paladinus posted:Even if you consider everything as God's domain, it's still, in my opinion, dangerous to seek God's immediate and active presence in every aspect of your life. More often than not there are no signs, sometimes thing are just happening as a consequence of someone else exercising their free will. If you are want God to give you a cool custom sign composed of enormous gas giants across galaxies for what to wear today, you kind of put God to the test that is easily failable if something goes wrong because of the decision you made based on a perceived sign that you (or an astrologist) interpreted a certain way. It is more honest to just flip a coin embracing the relative randomness of the result, without thinking that God himself personally flips that coin with you and it lands in the best possible way that God intended to. Or if something bad happens out of the blue, and you start to blame God for not sending you a sign. I like this line of argument. Would you see it as a former of selfishness? Tias posted:drat it goons, stop arguing about stars shut the gently caress up. This is the most interesting discussion the thread has had in a long loving time. Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Nov 25, 2016 |
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Nov 25, 2016 14:07
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:shut the gently caress up. This is the most interesting discussion the thread has had in a long loving time. Dang, forget I said anything, fuckmaster
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Nov 25, 2016 14:20
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Astrology doesn't just run into the problem of falsehood leading to sin. This is a valid issue, but, as St. John Damascene points out, belief that celestial bodies control us personally is a rejection of free will. St. Gregory of Nyssa concurs with this. St. Gregory the Great writes from a different but also interesting perspective, that "Man was not made for the stars, but rather the stars for man; and if a star can be called the ruler of man, then man must be considered the slave of his own servants." This is of course a reference to the creation of the world in Genesis. Well, HEY GAL's perspective is slightly different from a more traditional understanding of astrology, from what I can tell, so I don't think those obvious rebuttals actually work in that case. Celestial bodies can very evidently influence our lives, through moon phases and tides, or meteorites falling from the sky, or solar winds, etc., and all this doesn't impede free will. Of course, those phenomena can be scientifically observed and explained, while influence of far-away stars is barely noticeable on physical level. Maybe there is some middle-ground, but I don't see how one can argue for it properly. Rodrigo Diaz posted:I like this line of argument. Would you see it as a former of selfishness? Also, I know HAY GAL is all about tradition, but only Western astrologists/scientists were mentioned. Were there any Orthodox astrologists or something close to that?
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Nov 25, 2016 14:31
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The only possible mechanism by which some astrological-type personality influence could occur would be through climate. Historically, a child born in March would go through his early formative months with a different diet and climate than one born in, say, September. Thus it is conceivable that children could develop in different ways with distinct personalities based on when they were born - but not due to the influence of any celestial bodies. Those bodies would simply be markers as a universal calendar. There were no calendars with officially named months for most of history, so keeping track of the time of year by the stars was a natural thing for people to do. However, it was what was happening here on Earth that influenced things. Claiming that it was the bodies themselves doing the influencing is indefensible bullshit.
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Nov 25, 2016 15:37
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What about Biblical magi/wise men? They've followed the star to find Jesus. This was an extraordinary event, although it does show that God reigns over celestial bodies and can use them to reveal things to humans in general. The only thing that doesn't follow from it is that there is some eternal system to how stars and planets we look at from Earth influence particular individuals from the day they are born.
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Nov 25, 2016 16:30
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Deteriorata posted:The only possible mechanism by which some astrological-type personality influence could occur would be through climate. Historically, a child born in March would go through his early formative months with a different diet and climate than one born in, say, September. Thus it is conceivable that children could develop in different ways with distinct personalities based on when they were born - but not due to the influence of any celestial bodies. Those bodies would simply be markers as a universal calendar. Climate was the major personality predictor in ancient Greek medicine: there's a ton of stuff about it in the Hippocratic Corpus. The most famous of these is On Airs, Waters, and Places, where the author talks about how the prevailing winds and types of water in a place affect the inhabitants. It's some classic ancient medicine poo poo, as well as being one of the earliest recorded attempts to systematize the effects of climate on the spread of disease.
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Nov 25, 2016 17:48
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pidan posted:I don't think hidden=bad holds. Most of modern science and even technology is pretty hidden to the average person and yet here we are, using it to communicate. You appear to be conflating two very different definitions of the word "hidden". I agree that it can sometimes be useful, rhetorically, to conceive of the average person going about their lives interacting with complex systems that are in some sense "hidden" from them because they do not know about or fully understand the entirety of how these systems work. However I don't think it is correct in any way to simply say this concept is equal to the concept of "hidden knowledge". The idea of hidden knowledge is that the world is actually not at all what it seems, and that true reality is a bizarre-o funhouse mirror version of how 99.9% of people perceive it. It's the basis of beliefs like Gnosticism, where dude we totally were created by a false trickster god and you have to like wake up to realize it, and it is a major component in lots of conspiracy theories, for example ideas like well, actually the world is controlled by a shadowy cabal of lizard people. And while I don't study this stuff, in my opinion this idea is at the very least related to how religious and political fundamentalists create things like scapegoats, or like idealized views of the past/future, in order to justify their advocacy for violence and oppression.
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Nov 25, 2016 19:34
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When you stare into the early modern, the early modern also stares back into you
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Nov 25, 2016 19:44
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Lutha Mahtin posted:it is a major component in lots of conspiracy theories, for example ideas like well, actually the world is controlled by a shadowy cabal of lizard people. And while I don't study this stuff, in my opinion this idea is at the very least related to how religious and political fundamentalists create things like scapegoats, or like idealized views of the past/future, in order to justify their advocacy for violence and oppression. Very true, but conspiracies are mostly for sick people. It's the realization that neither they, nor anyone else, is in control of the world - it would continue without them, and bad things happen to good people for no reason. However, instead of making a logical journey from there into making peace with creation, they flee into the relative safety that jews, reptile people or UFOs control everything from the shadows 
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Nov 25, 2016 19:55
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StashAugustine posted:When you stare into the early modern, the early modern also stares back into you Speaking of early modern, who else is pumped for Christmas? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9o2M7jHnlE ^^ an early modern composition that was culturally appropriated like 5 times before ending up as a German christmas song, performed inside a protestant baroque church that does double duty as an anti-war monument after being rebuilt after the end of Socialism. Perfectly embodies this thread I think. Same building with Martin Luther: 
pidan fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Nov 25, 2016 |
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Nov 25, 2016 20:40
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Paladinus posted:
The thing is this is also what the church fathers argue. John Damascene lays it out thusly: "But we hold that we get from [celestial bodies] signs of rain and drought, cold and heat, moisture and dryness, and of various winds, and so forth, but no sign whatsoever as to our actions. For we have been created with free will by our Creator and we are masters over our own actions. Indeed, if all our actions depend on the course of the stars, all we do is done out of necessity (fate, in other words); and necessity precludes either virtue or vice." Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Nov 25, 2016 |
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Nov 25, 2016 20:46
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:The thing is this is also what the church fathers argue. John Damascene lays it out thusly: I don't agree that free will works like that. The human soul is shaped by all kinds of factors outside the individual's control. If not being "masters of our own actions" means there is no virtue or vice, then there isn't any virtue or vice, because people react to situations in predictable ways. Also, astrology is typically used to predict situations and tendencies, not the actions of an individual. Lutha Mahtin posted:The idea of hidden knowledge is that the world is actually not at all what it seems, and that true reality is a bizarre-o funhouse mirror version of how 99.9% of people perceive it. It's the basis of beliefs like Gnosticism, where dude we totally were created by a false trickster god and you have to like wake up to realize it, and it is a major component in lots of conspiracy theories, for example ideas like well, actually the world is controlled by a shadowy cabal of lizard people. And while I don't study this stuff, in my opinion this idea is at the very least related to how religious and political fundamentalists create things like scapegoats, or like idealized views of the past/future, in order to justify their advocacy for violence and oppression. I agree that this can be the basis of bad ideas, but "the true nature of the world is not obvious to our senses" seems inarguably true. From where I'm sitting, I can't tell that the Earth is a sphere, I don't know that the sun is really big, I don't perceive that the electricity in my house comes from a big coal fire somewhere. Now you can say, all this information is in principle accessible to my senses if I use the correct instruments in the correct way, but isn't that the same claim that occultism is making?
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Nov 25, 2016 21:01
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Paladinus posted:What about Biblical magi/wise men? They've followed the star to find Jesus. The Star of Bethlehem was a sign and not a cause. The astrology that St. Augustine, St. Gregory the Great and St. Gregory of Nyssa rail against says that heavenly bodies are the cause of everything that happens on earth. It's both deterministic (and thus negates free will) and blasphemy (since it ascribes these powers to heavenly bodies and not to God.) Tias posted:However, instead of making a logical journey from there into making peace with creation, they flee into the relative safety that jews, reptile people or UFOs control everything from the shadows Haha that's dumb everyone knows it's the Jesuits.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:08
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Tias posted:Very true, but conspiracies are mostly for sick people. It's the realization that neither they, nor anyone else, is in control of the world - it would continue without them, and bad things happen to good people for no reason. However, instead of making a logical journey from there into making peace with creation, they flee into the relative safety that jews, reptile people or UFOs control everything from the shadows Making peace with creation isn't any better. Both are forms of surrender and despair. 
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Nov 25, 2016 21:13
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The Phlegmatist posted:The Star of Bethlehem was a sign and not a cause. Yes. And this is what HAY GAL argued were all stars in the sky, if not all things in the universe.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:19
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Holy dingbats, did any of you know of this custom? http://www.atlasobscura.com/article...dium=atlas-page I'm almost tempted to try to take the gig. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Making peace with creation isn't any better. Both are forms of surrender and despair. All of creation is inextricably linked. Aknowledging this fact is not surrendering to anything but the truth 
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Nov 25, 2016 21:26
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The Phlegmatist posted:The Star of Bethlehem was a sign and not a cause. Yeah this is my theological problem with astrology: it assigns influence to the positioning of stars and planets. God alone can affect our lives. Scientifically, um well... all of this repeats cyclically so I feel like you're angling more towards Buddhism. Unrelated, but apologies if I went on a bit of a rant last night, too much turkey and booze. And chatting with HEY GAL fired me up, nothing directed at her or any of her beliefs, just something she mentioned got me really pissed off.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:48
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pidan posted:I don't agree that free will works like that. The human soul is shaped by all kinds of factors outside the individual's control. If not being "masters of our own actions" means there is no virtue or vice, then there isn't any virtue or vice, because people react to situations in predictable ways. So how does free will work, in your mind? quote:Also, astrology is typically used to predict situations and tendencies, not the actions of an individual. "Predicting situations" (inasmuch as they directly involve humans) through the planets is fatalism, and thus heresy. I also think your notion of what astrology is "typically" used for is mistaken. Here's part of my horoscope for 2017: This is a year on fire, pouring energy into your work, career, and creativity sectors. The January Sun-Pluto conjunction keeps your ambition and work ethic sky high. The separating Mars-Neptune conjunction makes sure that emotions, lofty spiritual ideals, and instincts are not left behind. It is explicitly predicting my thoughts and judgement. This is heretical and sinful. It's bad. if you use astrology to do anything other than predict attitudes and actions based on the motions of celestial bodies, you are no longer practicing astrology. But if you are in fact practicing astrology you are committing a sin.
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Nov 25, 2016 22:06
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i mean in asian countries like china and japan astrology is used less for determining personality and the actions of people and more for determing the best time to open a new business, go on vacation, or even when the best time to get married would be. looking to western astrological horoscopes as being normative for astrology misses a lot of the various ways astrology is used outside of that context, which includes both asian astrology and even more serious western astrological research which is based on ancient astrological, astronomical, and philosophical systems which have mostly fallen out of use in the west. the sort of people hey gal studies would use astrology much the same way that contemporary asian people might use it, as ways to avoid potentially negative outcomes and create positive ones. rather than being a question of free will versus non free will it's more a question of reducing risk, and while this risk isn't necessarily scientific it also isn't necessarily religious either (because japanese people by and large don't identify as religious, yet many people still look to astrology when deciding the time to change jobs or things of that nature). at best dismissing it as a sin outright ignores a potential dialogue with a serious system of thought, and at worst alienates people from other cultures who do not see it as even superstition.
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Nov 25, 2016 22:28
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Pellisworth posted:Yeah this is my theological problem with astrology: it assigns influence to the positioning of stars and planets. God alone can affect our lives. In a universe where the planets did affect behavior directly, in what way would that be different from the influence of gravity and other natural phenomena? Would whatever influence the planets had not ultimately stem from the God who made them? In what ways does astrology (claim to) predict behavior in a way theologically distinct from other types of prediction? Is it intrinsic to astrology In general or specific schools of astrology in particular?
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Nov 25, 2016 22:32
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If it influences us, and it is not of God, or natural (which falls back under God), logically, it must be evil or of the devil. I'm paraphrasing an argument I remember reading that went like that against divination and magic by fra. Gabriele Amorth, the old chief of the vatican exorcist college(? Or school). The book itself was a fairly terrifying recounting of an exorcist's work. Evil's scary stuff. It lurks on the edges of practically everything we consider quaint and harmless superstition.
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Nov 25, 2016 22:34
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:So how does free will work, in your mind? I don't use astrology for any purpose. But the type that I'm familiar with makes statements like "today is a good day to cut your hair" and "conflicts are likely to come up". Even if we take your example, it doesn't make predictions about your behavior, just about moods and situations. If I say "after smoking that joint you will feel relaxed and giggle a lot", that's not fatalism nor heresy. If I say "not opening a window in the conference room will make people feel sluggish and not work well" it's the same. And if we assume that the position of stars has a similar effect on people, analyzing that isn't fatalism either. That said, if "celestial bodies control your actions" is the belief that the historical arguments are arguing against, I can see why they feel that contradicts Christianity. I don't really know what is free will. After all, your decisions are made from a combination of your current situation and your previous experiences. I don't think people have free will in the sense that they can freely choose their actions: their actions are either conditioned by circumstances that they did not choose, or produced by features of their mind that they did not choose, or they're random, which I believe just means "influenced by factors that aren't obvious". At no point are your actions and thoughts not conditioned phenomena. So maybe I don't believe in free will, is what I'm saying.
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Nov 25, 2016 22:40
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Caufman posted:How about Of Gods And Men? Haven't seen it yet, but it looks interesting. If you're not averse to Danish black humour, Adam's Apples is another great film with heavy Christian themes. Ceciltron posted:If it influences us, and it is not of God, or natural (which falls back under God), logically, it must be evil or of the devil. That argument quickly becomes a mess when you try to unravel what constitutes 'natural'.
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Nov 25, 2016 22:51
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Caustic Soda posted:How do you get from "the planets influence/control behavior" to "this power is above and beyond the properties God has imbued the planets with"? Was that a built-in claim to the astrology that Gregory of Nyssa et al. advocated against? The basic assumption of astrology is that your birth date dictates or suggests your personality and the outcomes of your actions. Based on the timing of your birth, you should or shouldn't do a thing on a certain date. I would reject astrology on the basis that your birth date and related alignment of stars/planets means jack poo poo and should not be assigned any authority or predictive ability within a Christian context. Or a scientific context, in which it's even more absurd. I can see from a panentheist (God is synonymous with the material universe and more) perspective how astrology might seem attractive. If God ordered the universe, and is essentially co-existent with everything in the universe, then the ordering of stars and planets might be relevant to us. To me, that denies the agency of both God and our own selves in our lives. It seems easy to follow that down the rabbit hole into some sort of Calvinist-esque predestination where the stars and planets determine your life. I have Strong Opinions on how science and religion relate, but this seems a really obvious example of where tradition is dumb and wrong but perhaps insightful. Much like going to a psychic and having your tarot/palm read might lead you to some beneficial introspection, astrology might also point your thinking in new ways and toward important aspects of your life you've been neglecting. That doesn't make it predictive or useful but hey if you enjoy having the chiropractor crack your back, go nuts. Placebo is better than nothing. e: astrology is cool historically but extremely stupid in a modern context. My 2c. I would propose this counterargument: how is astrology different than consulting your neighborhood psychic or tarot card reader? It isn't. It's all bullshit handwaving, you might gain some good introspection out of it but it's still garbage nonsense. e2: astrology is worthless but your personal reaction and how you process astrological readings could be important Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Nov 25, 2016 |
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Nov 25, 2016 23:21
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