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I am about to commit seppuku if I have to keep drinking the coffee at my job. I used to be into roasting my own beans and what not, but kind of fell out of the coffee at home habit a year or so ago. While my pallette is not as snobby as it used to be, I can only drink so much Foldgers before lapsing into a deep coffee depression. I hit that point a couple weeks ago. I have two electric kettles (one gooseneck, one large variable temp Cuisinart I got for my birthday a month after buying the gooseneck), as well as an Aeropress, a Chemex, and a poo poo Cuisinart grinder I bought before I knew better but does a semi-passable job. I'm planning on bringing the Cuisinart kettle and the aeropress to work to stash in my office. The CEO hates noise so the grinder absolutely out of the question - I'll be grinding beans at home in the morning and bringing in the grounds. I really don't have the inclination to roast my own beans at the moment - is there a moderately priced but decent coffee subscription service y'all recommend? I don't need anything absolutely phenomonal, because it's gonna be a good hour between grind and brew, and anything is a step up from the choice between Tim Horton's keurig cups and a half-function Bunn brewing Foldgers, sometimes loaded by people who throw in twice the amount of grounds. I'd still like something nice though  I used to have a subscription to Tonx, which I loved, but they've been bought out by Blue Bottle which makes me sad and afraid. I miss being excited to drink coffee, rather than dreading it but needing the caffeine.
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Dec 7, 2016 06:20
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Blue Bottle sells pre-ground vacuum sealed coffee that tastes pretty good but it's expensive as gently caress.
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Dec 7, 2016 06:38
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Jesus gently caress, I looked that up and it works out to like 3.50 a cup if you want the single serve  Are blue bottle's single origin packages any good? Am I an rear end in a top hat for considering getting single origin while planning on grinding it a full hour before brewing? because I feel like one e; Does anyone have experience with Mistobox? Dramatika fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 06:45
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I think BB makes consistently great coffee but I only buy them because they are so freshly roasted. If you go to their stores nothing is over a day or two old. I don't think I would order their stuff online and would just get something local.
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Dec 7, 2016 06:50
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I'm doing math right now and found that since Sweet Maria's sells a Behmor for 369, shipped with eight pounds of green coffee, the Behmor really comes out to around $150 assuming ~$20 for 12oz as seems to be the going rate. I really shouldn't go down this road but here we are  Gonna sleep on it.There's a badass local roaster here called Greenway but the traffic getting there is loving ridiculous, they are only open during office hours as they are located in the basement of a skyscraper in a business district, and are also expensive as hell. Also you have to pay garage fees to park and run in. I loved the hell out of their beans the two times I actually made it over to buy them, but it's more headache than it's worth. I'm sure Houston has to have other good roasters though.
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Dec 7, 2016 06:59
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Hi coffee thread, you were right. Looking for an electric grinder to
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Dec 7, 2016 17:34
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Phone posted:Hi coffee thread, you were right. Baratza Encore, refurbished if you don't want to buy new.
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Dec 7, 2016 18:15
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FYI for those of you looking for deals on Amazon, keep an eye on where your seller is from. I've gotten 3 complaints recently that people are selling/shipping 240V machines on the 120V Amazon listings. This is because earlier this year Amazon made it really really easy to list in other countries (basically put a price ratio and click a button), so the listings are now awash with UK, DE, JP, etc. sellers. Generally they're priced way too high to make a difference but sometimes they screw up the currency conversion
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Dec 7, 2016 18:46
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Anybody know if any super automatics do not have the issue of heating the coffee to 170ish? Could somebody perhaps explain how this is ok when the recommended temp is usually 190ish? Also, don't guilt trip me for looking at super automatics I love my aeropress but sometimes I don't feel like going through that much trouble for my second or third cup in the day.
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Dec 7, 2016 20:51
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Are you talking with Milk involved or not? Milk drinks will automatically get a temperature drop off a super auto because you're inserting cold liquid directly at the brew head (so as to minimize amount of places in the machine icky milk has to be cleaned out of). There's a trick that works with at least the Delonghi's, where you can make the milk tube "thinner", which means less milk is going through the frother/sec which results in more energy being put into less milk. Not sure if it works with Saeco/Jura, but the principle shouldn't be brand-specific. If you're not talking milk, most of the super autos will heat to around the same temp, with differences by brand. The hottest by far I've encountered, and probably out of your budget, is the Gaggia Accademia. It's the only machine we sell in my experience that has had people come back saying "it's kinda too hot, can you make it cooler??". The Gaggia Brera is a nice hot little machine too but not as hot as the Accedemia. After that it seems like to me (personal experience, not "science side by side with the thermometers out") it goes Saeco > Delonghi > Jura for off the spout hotness.
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Dec 7, 2016 22:09
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Scaramouche posted:Are you talking with Milk involved or not? Milk drinks will automatically get a temperature drop off a super auto because you're inserting cold liquid directly at the brew head (so as to minimize amount of places in the machine icky milk has to be cleaned out of). There's a trick that works with at least the Delonghi's, where you can make the milk tube "thinner", which means less milk is going through the frother/sec which results in more energy being put into less milk. Not sure if it works with Saeco/Jura, but the principle shouldn't be brand-specific. I'm not afraid of spending 1.5-2k on this. I used to have a Jira something or another, j5 maybe? The coffee wasn't hot enough (I think it was 170ish). I also felt like the espresso that resulted from the machine wasn't strong enough, even on the highest (most ground) with lower quantities of water. As far as milk goes I'm interested if it's possible to get a machine that does milk, but if it means I sacrifice quality I'm not interested. I typically like a breve (half&half rather than straight milk) and some of the reviews I've seen of the Delonghi/Jura seem to say the company's support says whole milk (or 2%) or bust. So that's also a bit of a concern. I'll get another device to froth milk if I must. Checking out this Gaggia looks really nice.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:50
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Jura does some neat poo poo with those compact form factors, but I'd definitely put them at the lower end of the hotness scale. You can generally stick any kind of milk into a machine and get something, but they are definitely geared toward 2%. We've even had people use soy/almond milk, but they use those with the big semi-automatics that have their own steam wands where you can manually control the frothing process. The Accademia is a pretty good super automatic, but a lot of its price is due to the removable milk can/frothing/programmable doses stuff, so it might be over-priced if you're just looking for pure temperature machine. I do like it though, it's kind of the antithesis of the wind-tunnel designed Jura's and the faux-futuristic blocky Delonghis and the cheap plastic molded looking Saecos. Another weird super auto to consider, but is probably is too expensive, is the Quick Mill Monza 05010 Super Deluxe. It's like this amazing, bulletproof cube of steel that happens to be a super automatic. I've never seen anything else like it; usually an automatic has a lot of plastic and gimmickry, but not the Monza. It's plumbable, and does fresh milk drinks via side tube, but it's an espresso first machine. It's built so rugged we use it in Office Coffee Service installs as well.
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Dec 8, 2016 01:26
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Scaramouche posted:Jura does some neat poo poo with those compact form factors, but I'd definitely put them at the lower end of the hotness scale. Man, these Quick Mill machines are really nice. I'm considering one of them now... the whole thing being stainless steel (or chrome?) really makes me think it'll hold up for a while. Hah, now I'm not sure what to do. Edit: It looks like the GAGGIA ACCADEMIA still suffers from the same milk temp problem others do, also the espresso is only 167F. From the specifications found here: http://www.gaggia-usa.com/machines/Gaggia-Accademia/id/3603 I'm thinking a super-auto is out. ILikeVoltron fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 07:03
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I did some checking around, and it looks like the only way you're going to get higher temps is on manual controlled processes like pourover or a programmable drip. I did the thermo test on a long coffee from the Accademia and it nailed it at 165, I would be surprised if the Delonghi/Jura machines get even close to it (can't test the Quick Mill, we sold all of them!). Automatics don't really go above or are designed to go above that range, since they are at heart, espresso based machines. That super hot cup you're wanting is more an artifact of drip brewers and pourovers I think. You'll get some benefits from an aggressive cup warmer (for my tests I used a paper cup) but not the 20 or so degrees you're looking for. To give some context, the infamous McDonald's coffee lawsuit which culminated in 3rd degree burns and fused genitalia, apparently involved coffee that was served at 180-190.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:03
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Dramatika posted:I'm doing math right now and found that since Sweet Maria's sells a Behmor for 369, shipped with eight pounds of green coffee, the Behmor really comes out to around $150 assuming ~$20 for 12oz as seems to be the going rate. I do love me some Behmor. I'm roasting a couple of pounds of dry process Ethiopian tonight, actually.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:55
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Scaramouche posted:I did some checking around, and it looks like the only way you're going to get higher temps is on manual controlled processes like pourover or a programmable drip. I did the thermo test on a long coffee from the Accademia and it nailed it at 165, I would be surprised if the Delonghi/Jura machines get even close to it (can't test the Quick Mill, we sold all of them!). Automatics don't really go above or are designed to go above that range, since they are at heart, espresso based machines. That super hot cup you're wanting is more an artifact of drip brewers and pourovers I think. You'll get some benefits from an aggressive cup warmer (for my tests I used a paper cup) but not the 20 or so degrees you're looking for. To give some context, the infamous McDonald's coffee lawsuit which culminated in 3rd degree burns and fused genitalia, apparently involved coffee that was served at 180-190.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:00
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Scaramouche posted:I did some checking around, and it looks like the only way you're going to get higher temps is on manual controlled processes like pourover or a programmable drip. I did the thermo test on a long coffee from the Accademia and it nailed it at 165, I would be surprised if the Delonghi/Jura machines get even close to it (can't test the Quick Mill, we sold all of them!). Automatics don't really go above or are designed to go above that range, since they are at heart, espresso based machines. That super hot cup you're wanting is more an artifact of drip brewers and pourovers I think. You'll get some benefits from an aggressive cup warmer (for my tests I used a paper cup) but not the 20 or so degrees you're looking for. To give some context, the infamous McDonald's coffee lawsuit which culminated in 3rd degree burns and fused genitalia, apparently involved coffee that was served at 180-190. I'm not attempting to drink the coffee at 190, I'm under the impression brewing / pour over etc should be done at 190 and that pulling a shot of espresso would be the same temp, are you suggesting 165 is the "correct" espresso temp? If so, awesome! If not, what should it be? Edit 1: Also, to quote my original post, so hopefully we can get this cleared up: ILikeVoltron posted:Anybody know if any super automatics do not have the issue of heating the coffee to 170ish? Could somebody perhaps explain how this is ok when the recommended temp is usually 190ish? <snip> Edit 2: My brief search yields that 197F is roughly the right temp for Espresso, so wouldn't that mean that 170F from the super-autos would be producing a less than ideal cup? http://www.coffeeresearch.org/espresso/potential.htm http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jsfa.1304/abstract ILikeVoltron fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 9, 2016 02:00
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ILikeVoltron posted:Edit 2: My brief search yields that 197F is roughly the right temp for Espresso, so wouldn't that mean that 170F from the super-autos would be producing a less than ideal cup? Don't go too far into that google-fu regarding the "right" or "correct" temp to pull a shot. Eventually you'll find yourself on homebarista pouring through discussions of the "right" and "correct" temp to pull every variant of bean, roast, type of shot, what color of underwear you have on, etc... For the most part, "just off the boil" works, so around ~190 to ~200. I would say that pulling at 170 at the head would be a one-way ticket to sourtown, but this is coming from a guy who's never had a good cup from a super, just the over-roasted gimmiesomedamncoffee from the kiosks in the airport.
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Dec 9, 2016 04:48
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Got the girlfriend a chemex and a kettle a few Christmases ago and now our cuisinart grinder is starting to burn out I think so I was planning on getting her an upgrade. Would the recommendations now be different from the OP or are they pretty much the same?
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Dec 9, 2016 05:01
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Pretty much unchanged.
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Dec 9, 2016 05:05
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Alleric posted:Don't go too far into that google-fu regarding the "right" or "correct" temp to pull a shot. Eventually you'll find yourself on homebarista pouring through discussions of the "right" and "correct" temp to pull every variant of bean, roast, type of shot, what color of underwear you have on, etc... For the most part, "just off the boil" works, so around ~190 to ~200. I would say that pulling at 170 at the head would be a one-way ticket to sourtown, but this is coming from a guy who's never had a good cup from a super, just the over-roasted gimmiesomedamncoffee from the kiosks in the airport. I'm with you, I'm not assuming "197" as the gospel and I'm not likely going to sit there and re-measure and re-pour a shot because it somehow missed it by one or two degrees. But I don't want to get a super auto and not be satisfied with a cup it produced because the temp of the water it used wasn't hot enough (I mean, 167->197 is ~15% difference) to get the right flavors out of the bean. I don't think that's asking too much?
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Dec 9, 2016 05:24
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So I'm trying to figure out the whole cappuccino thing. As I understand it,  OK, so a cappuccino has like a ton of foam on top, right? You're either supposed to spoon the foam on after you've poured in the milk, or as my roommate claims you're supposed to spoon on the foam first and then pour the milk in? Either way you should just see a big head of foam if you look in the cup? So why does every rear end in a top hat who makes a "how to make a cappuccino" video talk about this foam layering thing and then not do it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ao5b6uqI40 WHERE IS THE FOAM YOU gently caress I spent a whole weekend figuring out how to make a huge pile of foam and was so pleased with myself, and then I go looking and this is the top hit for "make cappuccino", but they all seem to be like this "just pour the milk in, and look you can make a heart on top uwu, and then throw the foam away I guess" CHRIST
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Dec 9, 2016 16:49
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Dramatika posted:I'm doing math right now and found that since Sweet Maria's sells a Behmor for 369, shipped with eight pounds of green coffee, the Behmor really comes out to around $150 assuming ~$20 for 12oz as seems to be the going rate. How were you roasting before? I've done everything from popcorn popper, the whirlygig on the stove top, a hearthroast (actually 2 hearthroasters), to Behmor. Behmor is easy to use if you just want to roast some coffee, and configurable enough to let you experiment. Also Joe Behmor is a swell guy and does good things for the planet.
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Dec 9, 2016 17:06
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Data Graham posted:So I'm trying to figure out the whole cappuccino thing. None of the good places put a thick layer of foam on top. It doesn't taste like anything and I have no idea why anyone likes it. That video shows the proper way that it's served. In the US the only difference between lattes and capps are the amount of milk. Both have the same amount of coffee, usually a ristretto double shot.
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Dec 9, 2016 17:26
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Okay, got it: my roommate's just being insane as usual. Thanks.
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Dec 9, 2016 17:48
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Is the Baratza Encore their replacement for the Maestro? Solid grinder for a chemex?
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Dec 9, 2016 17:50
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Stan Taylor posted:Is the Baratza Encore their replacement for the Maestro? Solid grinder for a chemex? The Encore would work great for pour overs, yup.
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Dec 9, 2016 18:04
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Data Graham posted:So I'm trying to figure out the whole cappuccino thing. I was the go-to barista at my shop for making cappuccinos to spec. I find that if you start with cold milk, steam up a nice batch of micro-foam, and immediately then pour with a heavy hand (before the foam and liquid have completely separated), you'll get a nearly perfect cap every time. You're not likely to draw anything on top, but the milk:foam:espresso ratio was right.
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Dec 9, 2016 20:13
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As far as I can tell there's no real definitive answer on what a cap "really" is beyond the fact that it's traditionally been a much smaller drink than you find in the US (4-6 oz rather than 8-12 or whatever). That said, regardless of what the original cappuccino was, a giant head of tasteless foam is bad and pointless in my book. And sprinkling cinnamon or whatever on top is even worse.
dik-dik fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 9, 2016 23:34
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Once you figure out how to consistently make microfoam, all of those definitions don't matter anymore. Good microfoam + your happy ratio of espresso to microfoam = bliss. Everything else is just being showy. I'm a 1:1 guy. 1.5-2.0 oz pull, same amount of thick, sweet microfoam. I'm told this is a "Cortado". I'm also told this is a "Gibraltar". They could call it a "Susan". I really don't care.
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Dec 9, 2016 23:45
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Alleric posted:Once you figure out how to consistently make microfoam, all of those definitions don't matter anymore. Good microfoam + your happy ratio of espresso to microfoam = bliss. Everything else is just being showy. I call them delicious, been drinking them non-stop lately.
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Dec 10, 2016 19:18
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I think I finally nailed the roast on this Ethiopian I've been dancing with. Two of these this morning and here I am after lunch catching myself staring at the Silvia.
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Dec 10, 2016 20:36
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ILikeVoltron posted:I'm with you, I'm not assuming "197" as the gospel and I'm not likely going to sit there and re-measure and re-pour a shot because it somehow missed it by one or two degrees. But I don't want to get a super auto and not be satisfied with a cup it produced because the temp of the water it used wasn't hot enough (I mean, 167->197 is ~15% difference) to get the right flavors out of the bean. I don't think that's asking too much? As has been stated earlier, there really is a chasing the dragon aspect to this. There's so many variables involved including the bean type/flavour, the roast of the bean, the size of the bean, the grind, water to coffee ratio, etc. There is also a difference between temperature at the brew head, and temperature that ends up in your cup. So for that latter point, the temperature I was measuring was in the cup, which has hit the air and the cup, and is immediately lower than what goes through the pressurized head. Some machines, like our fancy Quick Mill Vetrano 2B, have PID temperature sensors in the boiler circuit that you can set for your ideal temperature. For that one, the temperature is set to 94C/201F, and yet when I do a cup measurement it ends up being 150-160F depending on extraction (temperature stabilization in the monstrously sized group head also contributes). The upshot of this, I believe, is that most machines are at brew time, going to have that 190-200 range you're looking for. But no one actually drinks at that temperature obviously, except for some crazy pourover/french types. That said, there are beans/blends/situations that are "better" at lower temperatures. Fruitier, lighter blends can have their flavours overridden being served higher than 150F depending on the bean, or if brewed too high produce more acidy tones. The problem being of course, is all this is subjective, and there are so many variables involving organic molecules that it becomes difficult to say what the all around "best" temperature is. My gut feel is that in the range you were looking at ($1.5-$2) you're going to get a good machine, though maybe stay away from the Jura. Maybe check out some showrooms and pull some drinks to see what you like best. As I said, I've been impressed by both the Accademia and the Quick Mill Monza, and you can get into a quality Delonghi for even less (as Bizwank has pointed out Delonghi doesn't differentiate themselves on boiler/brewgroup at price intervals, so if "coffee, hot" is all you care about their mid-range is about the same as their high range). Most showrooms will let you try em out, I know ours does.
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Dec 10, 2016 22:43
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Yeah, it's a process. The temperature you extract at is not necessarily the temperature you consume at. It's an array of states and actions, and any change early in the process can affect things later on if you want to. There's conventions of various detail laid down by interested parties, but yeah... dragon chasing. Anyway, just looking at brew vs serve temp... If we presume the state of a known good bean at a known good roast, there's going to be some temp north of 190 it's going to want to be brewed at (and prolly a range of temps that will get you 99% of the way there so don't stress it). At this point you want that temp range present to cause the right extraction events to happen, for it to pull the right amount of nose, sweet, body, bitter, etc... Once it's done that, I can't imagine you'd want to drink it that hot. Normally, for me at least, serve temps up that high cause the heat to dominate everything, my taste buds are in shock and I get little sweetness or nose. Let the coffee cool a bit and it will change drastically and for the better. It will sweeten and you'll get a bit more complex flavor profile. So there's nothing wrong with serving in that 150-160 range. The Ethiopian dry process I'm drinking on right now... it's a totally different animal on the Technivorm at 160 or even after it's cooled down to 100 or room temp. It's like 3 different coffees. And it's the same if you pull shots on it. Pull a double and drink it immediately and it's a different coffee than if you let it sit for a couple of minutes while you steam milk, or if you walk over and dump cold milk into it. Three totally different flavor profiles. Within a range of what that bean/roast has to offer, of course. I would worry what the brew process can do from a temp perspective and then find your serve temp of choice after.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:45
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From the GAGGIA link I posted earlier (http://www.gaggia-usa.com/machines/Gaggia-Accademia/id/3603), the Accademia specs are as follows:quote:Performance I've bolded the parts I'm concerned about, we're still talking about brew temp, and the question is still out there, is a brew temp of 167 tolerable? I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, a simple thumbs up/down will do. If you guys want to call just the brew temp chasing the dragon so be it! I'm just trying to get my head around how brewing in the 160s is OK Thanks for all the info guys.
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Dec 12, 2016 21:27
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It's almost like we have a semantic issue here. When I say "brew temp", I specifically mean the temperature of the water when it hits the ground coffee mass to perform extraction. Perhaps I should shift my nomenclature to "extraction temp". When I read that breakdown you posted... I just cannot imagine extracting down at 167. I know there are some... lesser... drip machines that extract pretty low, but 167? I just can't see it. Double down on that for an epresso machine. I have to think when they say "brew temp" they mean the temp of the volume of liquid post-extraction (ergo the paper cup mention), or what I would call a "serving temperature". It has to be brewing/extracting much hotter than that.
Alleric fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 21:40
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Alleric posted:It's almost like we have a semantic issue here. When I say "brew temp", I specifically mean the temperature of the water when it hits the ground coffee mass to perform extraction. Perhaps I should shift my nomenclature to "extraction temp". When I read that breakdown you posted... I just cannot imagine extracting down at 167. I know there are some... lesser... drip machines that extract pretty low, but 167? I just can't see it. Double down on that for an expresso machine. I have to think when they say "brew temp" they mean the temp of the volume of liquid post-extraction (ergo the paper cup mention), or what I would call a "serving temperature". It has to be brewing/extracting much hotter than that. I was concerned this might also be the case. I wonder why they say brew temp then? Anyway, I was _really_ finding it hard to believe the brew/extraction temp of 167 was OK (obviously). Thanks!
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Dec 12, 2016 21:41
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ILikeVoltron posted:I was concerned this might also be the case. I wonder why they say brew temp then? Anyway, I was _really_ finding it hard to believe the brew/extraction temp of 167 was OK (obviously). Thanks! No problem. And thanks for quoting me before I could fix my moronic spelling!
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Dec 12, 2016 21:43
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The way I read it was that 167 was the temp in the cup, not the temp of the water leaving the boiler. I have an Accademia in the shop right now, I'll temp it as soon as it's fixed.
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Dec 12, 2016 22:21
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bizwank posted:The way I read it was that 167 was the temp in the cup, not the temp of the water leaving the boiler. I have an Accademia in the shop right now, I'll temp it as soon as it's fixed. Mind if I ask what went wrong with it? They've been pretty well bullet proof for us, and we've sold a lot so it'd be good to know about potential problems down the road. I also took that to read that 167 is the intended cup temp, especially when comparing PID boiler temperatures to in cup temperatures on a machine like the Vetrano 2b.
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Dec 12, 2016 23:45
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