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Whitlam posted:Fair enough, and I do take the point, but there are a lot of crime shows, and I'm sure at least one has done it at least once. I've definitely read crime thrillers where it's been a plot device/red herring so maybe it's just more common in books. Wait until the inevitable pedophilia scandal happens. 
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Dec 26, 2016 15:49
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Why the gently caress do you think the family knows what happened? It is obvious that the police bungled everything, any chance there was a finding out who is responsible is lost. It's not worth considering families murderers just because you have some sort of hunch based on how TV shows work
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Dec 26, 2016 17:15
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Pick posted:Why the gently caress do you think the family knows what happened? It is obvious that the police bungled everything, any chance there was a finding out who is responsible is lost. It's not worth considering families murderers just because you have some sort of hunch based on how TV shows work Statistics. The vast majority of child murders are committed by a family member.
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Dec 26, 2016 17:59
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whiteyfats posted:Wait until the inevitable pedophilia scandal happens. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_YmDcCpD1gc Frank saw it coming. He's always two steps ahead.
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Dec 26, 2016 18:13
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Pick posted:Why the gently caress do you think the family knows what happened? It is obvious that the police bungled everything, any chance there was a finding out who is responsible is lost. It's not worth considering families murderers just because you have some sort of hunch based on how TV shows work whiteyfats posted:Statistics. The vast majority of child murders are committed by a family member. Also, part of the police gently caress ups were leaving family members to wander the house, leaving lots of time to clean up. I don't think the family did it, but I would not be surprised either.
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Dec 26, 2016 20:33
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whiteyfats posted:Statistics. The vast majority of child murders are committed by a family member. God dammit that's not how you use statistics.
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Dec 26, 2016 20:39
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Pick posted:God dammit that's not how you use statistics. How do you use it, then?
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Dec 26, 2016 20:46
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Just because there is a, let's say, 85% odds that a murdered child was killed by someone in the family does not mean that, in a case where a specific child was murdered, there is an 85% chance that their family did it. There is a 0% or a 100% chance that someone in their family did it, and you do not know which. Over all cases, this will end up being a 85% probability, but that's not actually useful in establishing guilt in any specific case.
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Dec 26, 2016 21:03
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It's not odds or probability. Nobody is rolling a die to see who was the murderer. It's the historical prevalence, and doesn't have predictive power for any specific case.
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Dec 26, 2016 22:03
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The lack of any other viable suspects, along with the shoddy investigation, warrants/warranted a closer look at the family.
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Dec 26, 2016 22:29
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I completely agree that the police bungled it, which is why I don't think we'll ever know for sure what happened. I just think some of the stronger pieces of evidence point more in the direction of family involvement than random intruder, which is why it's probably worth not discounting them. Of course one of the reasons it's such a controversial case is that a lot of the evidence can be interpreted in more than one way, so feel free to believe whatever you want. I wouldn't say my mind is definitively made up, so if new evidence was revealed or discovered that pointed to someone else I'd happily say I was wrong, just on the basis of what I know, I'd say family involvement is more likely than not. For content: The Family Murders. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_Murders A group of people in Adelaide, South Australia, committed a number of abductions, which turned into sexual abuse and murder of and teenage boys. Only one person has ever been successfully charged (an accountant who was previously known for rescuing a gay man who members of the police had tried to murder), and other suspected family members include members of the legal community, a rich businessman, and a high-profile doctor, with more people possibly involved. This is yet another case where all the details will never be known, and people will probably be speculating about it for years to come. If it sounds kind of unlikely that a group of socially privileged individuals would get together in this shady conspiracy to kidnap and murder young men, you've got to know that Adelaide is... kind of weird. At the time it was fairly small and isolated, and socially it was a different time as well. Police officers were going out with the active intent of murdering gay people ("poofter bashing" was something of a national pastime), so they were hardly an incorruptible power for good, and everyone knew everyone's business, with a dash of a code of silence thrown in.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:24
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Whitlam posted:I completely agree that the police bungled it, which is why I don't think we'll ever know for sure what happened. I just think some of the stronger pieces of evidence point more in the direction of family involvement than random intruder, which is why it's probably worth not discounting them. Of course one of the reasons it's such a controversial case is that a lot of the evidence can be interpreted in more than one way, so feel free to believe whatever you want. I wouldn't say my mind is definitively made up, so if new evidence was revealed or discovered that pointed to someone else I'd happily say I was wrong, just on the basis of what I know, I'd say family involvement is more likely than not. There's a memorial for George Duncan (the gay man who's partner was rescued by Einem) at the site of his murder, which I used to walk past semi-regularly: quote:"In memory of Dr George Duncan, whose death by drowning on 10th May, 1972, near here, at the hands of persons unconvicted, precipitated homosexual law reform in South Australia, making it the first state in Australia in 1975 to decriminalise homosexual relations." What's super weird about the Family Murders is that the only dude who was caught, Bevan Spencer von Einem, was convicted on the testimony of a guy police were calling "Mr B" to conceal his identity. Mr B explicitly said in his testimony that Einem was responsible for two other nationally famous unsolved murder cases: the disappearance of the Beaumont Children and the disappearance of two girls from Adelaide oval. Police never found enough evidence to suspect him of either for very long but Mr B's testimony was reliable enough to convict him of Richard Kelvin's murder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaumont_children_disappearance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Joanne_Ratcliffe_and_Kirste_Gordon
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Dec 27, 2016 01:53
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Subjunctive posted:It's not odds or probability. Nobody is rolling a die to see who was the murderer. It's the historical prevalence, and doesn't have predictive power for any specific case. That reminds me of the comic, SMBC I think, where a serial killer has two people tied up and one says to the other "don't worry, the statistics of being murdered by a serial killer are one in a million".
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Dec 27, 2016 02:05
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One of my favorite crime cases is easily the The Original Night Stalker/East Area Rapist/Golden State Killer. Dude committed a total of 50+ rapes and 12+ murders between the years of 1978-1986. It's believed among some that he started out as just a serial burglar in Visalia, CA before escalating to burglary/rape and then burglary/rape/murder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visalia_Ransacker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Night_Stalker He always struck middle class homes, mostly single story, with neighborhoods close to creeks and drainage ditches for easy access in and out of the area. Sometimes he would getaway with a bike, sometimes a car, sometimes both. Nearly every single action this dude took was to scare and horrify his victims as much as possible. He would wake the couple, order them to tie each other up at gunpoint, drag the woman into the living room, rape her, rob them and split. A lot of times he would put plates on the tied husbands back and tell him that if he hears them fall, they're both dead. He even going as far as calling the victims several times for months or even years after the attack. His voice was recorded I believe after one victim went to the police to report these calls and put a recorder on her phone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdElYnd-xMo If you're interested in reading more about this case, Quester Files has amazing breakdowns on every crime he committed. From witness statements, pictures of what he wore and how he looked in each crime, pictures of the area to tell how he got in and out, etc. Pretty much everything. http://www.thequesterfiles.com/html/the_east_area_rapist__aka_the_.html Imagine being sound asleep with your wife, waking up to faint tapping sounds near the door to your bedroom and seeing this staring right at you.      He's a more brutal version of the boogey man. Chromatic has a new favorite as of 08:46 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 06:09
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They're still looking for him, but it's been so long since he was active-I wonder how many people with these massive manhunts just died incidentally one day and that's why they stopped and can't be found. The commonly accepted theory about DB Cooper, iirc, is that he most likely died after jumping out of the plane.
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Dec 27, 2016 06:14
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WickedHate posted:They're still looking for him, but it's been so long since he was active-I wonder how many people with these massive manhunts just died incidentally one day and that's why they stopped and can't be found. The commonly accepted theory about DB Cooper, iirc, is that he most likely died after jumping out of the plane. Specifically with him it ties in to the fact that original theory about his landing zone was probably wrong. It's very likely that he landed right in the river and got carried under.
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Dec 27, 2016 06:20
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WickedHate posted:They're still looking for him, but it's been so long since he was active-I wonder how many people with these massive manhunts just died incidentally one day and that's why they stopped and can't be found. The commonly accepted theory about DB Cooper, iirc, is that he most likely died after jumping out of the plane. Yeah, back in June the FBI announced they were joining the investigation and reopened the case. So far they've got nothing though. It's a topic of debate why he stopped his rapes/murders for 5 years and then did one final one. It was originally believed among LE and profilers that serial rapists/killers don't stop until someone/something stops them but Dennis Rader quitting cold turkey kind of nixed that idea. They do have his DNA on file though and every person sentenced to jail/prison in California has his DNA collected and run through the system against other crimes so that may prove useful one day. Hell, it may be a reason why he stopped. Personally, It wouldn't surprise me if he died in a bungled home invasion or something. He was unbelievably ballsy with the poo poo he tried and it was going to bite him eventually. That, and LE organizations didn't really communicate with each other that much back then, so if he was killed somewhere down south or elsewhere the LE searching for him up north would have been none the wiser. Chromatic has a new favorite as of 06:25 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 06:21
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The horrible case of Clive Wearing. A British man who has the worst kind of amnesia known in history, after the herpes virus somehow crossed the blood-brain barrier in 1985 after a bout of flu, destroying his hippocampus. His memory is, at best, 30 seconds long and at worst 7 seconds. He forgets what one is talking about mid-sentence. And yet he CAN remember, in a sense. For example, ask him where the kitchen is or ask him to show you where the kitchen is and he is hopelessly lost. But ask him to make some coffee or tea and he'll go into the kitchen and rummage around the correct drawers and cabinets. Have him watch a movie enough times and, although to him he won't remember a thing or ever remember knowing of the movie, can predict certain actions before they happen. As the years have gone by he has become less depressed and his conversations are less repetitive. His journal entries are especially frightening:quote:In a diary provided by his caretakers, Wearing was encouraged to record his thoughts. Page after page is filled with entries similar to the following: Every time he sees his wife, Deborah, it's as if it's the first time in years. Even if she just left the room to go to the bathroom or something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmzU47i2xgw
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Dec 27, 2016 15:04
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Chromatic posted:Yeah, back in June the FBI announced they were joining the investigation and reopened the case. So far they've got nothing though. One of the victims got a call from him in 91 "In 1991, a previous victim received a phone call from the perpetrator and spoke with him for one minute. She stated that she could hear a woman and children in the background, leading to suspicion that he had started a family" So there is that..
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Dec 27, 2016 15:58
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bean_shadow posted:The horrible case of Clive Wearing. A British man who has the worst kind of amnesia known in history, after the herpes virus somehow crossed the blood-brain barrier in 1985 after a bout of flu, destroying his hippocampus. His memory is, at best, 30 seconds long and at worst 7 seconds. He forgets what one is talking about mid-sentence. And yet he CAN remember, in a sense. For example, ask him where the kitchen is or ask him to show you where the kitchen is and he is hopelessly lost. But ask him to make some coffee or tea and he'll go into the kitchen and rummage around the correct drawers and cabinets. Have him watch a movie enough times and, although to him he won't remember a thing or ever remember knowing of the movie, can predict certain actions before they happen. As the years have gone by he has become less depressed and his conversations are less repetitive. His journal entries are especially frightening: Yeah, it's really disconcerting that memory is so fragile. Oliver Sacks wrote of a similar case in his book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat", in which a former sailor named Jimmie G. developed Korsakov's Syndrome, apparently due to alcohol abuse.
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Dec 27, 2016 16:15
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Autechresaint posted:One of the victims got a call from him in 91
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Dec 27, 2016 17:05
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I just stumbled across a transcript of one of the tapes of the Toolbox Killers, the most horrifying, disturbing thing I've ever read. I thought "how bad could it be?" and clicked the link. Probably the stupidest thing I've done. I'll link the Wikipedia article, which is disturbing enough.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Bittaker_and_Roy_Norris If you really want to read the transcript, Google "Toolbox killers". It will be the second link. I beg you don't for your own piece of mind. Proteus Jones has a new favorite as of 21:34 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 19:29
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Autechresaint posted:One of the victims got a call from him in 91 Yeah, but he would also play his own theme music and stuff during his phone calls so it wouldn't surprise me if it was a recording just to make things more confusing or creepy.
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Dec 27, 2016 19:31
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Solice Kirsk posted:Yeah, but he would also play his own theme music and stuff during his phone calls so it wouldn't surprise me if it was a recording just to make things more confusing or creepy. Even serial killers know the importance of branding.
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Dec 27, 2016 20:45
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flosofl posted:I just stumbled across a transcript of one of the tapes of the Toolbox Killers, the most horrifying, disturbing thing I've ever read. I thought "how bad could it be?" and clicked the link. Probably the stupidest thing I've done. Why did you spoiler link a Wikipedia page?
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Dec 27, 2016 21:31
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I had the original link to the transcript in there, and then chickened out including it and subbed the Wikipedia link. I forgot to remove the spoiler tag, and then didn't bother after posting it. Fixed.
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Dec 27, 2016 21:33
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flosofl posted:I just stumbled across a transcript of one of the tapes of the Toolbox Killers, the most horrifying, disturbing thing I've ever read. I thought "how bad could it be?" and clicked the link. Probably the stupidest thing I've done. I read in one of the FBI Profiler books by John Douglas (can't remember which one) that in preparation for his role as the FBI supervisor, Douglas let Scott Glenn listen to this tape and he broke down crying.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:02
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Cat Army
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MightyJoe36 posted:I read in one of the FBI Profiler books by John Douglas (can't remember which one) that in preparation for his role as the FBI supervisor, Douglas let Scott Glenn listen to this tape and he broke down crying. I can't even imagine. Just reading the transcript is going to haunt me for some time.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:15
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Solice Kirsk posted:Yeah, but he would also play his own theme music and stuff during his phone calls so it wouldn't surprise me if it was a recording just to make things more confusing or creepy. He had theme music!?
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Dec 27, 2016 22:16
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On serial killer tag teams, these pieces of poo poo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Bittaker_and_Roy_Norris John Douglas, a man who has spoken to a bunch of serial killers, called Bittaker the most loathsome individual he's ever spoken to.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:23
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WickedHate posted:He had theme music!? "When it comes crashing down and it hurts inside..."
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Dec 27, 2016 22:23
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Autechresaint posted:One of the victims got a call from him in 91 Was that ever confirmed though? The only places I see claims about the post-1986 phone calls are from message boards that are thrown around without sources. I've seen claims that victims received phone calls on every year as late as 2007. Not saying you're wrong, it's just unverified facts like that sometimes can get thrown around all the time and pick up steam without sources and the like.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:00
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flosofl posted:I just stumbled across a transcript of one of the tapes of the Toolbox Killers, the most horrifying, disturbing thing I've ever read. I thought "how bad could it be?" and clicked the link. Probably the stupidest thing I've done. Forget the transcript, there was a clip somewhere (I recommend NOT looking for it) where someone just had to leave, the doors of the court opened mid tape and you could hear a small bit of it, absolutely haunting
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Dec 28, 2016 01:17
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whiteyfats posted:On serial killer tag teams, these pieces of poo poo. This is literally the duo already being discussed 
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Dec 28, 2016 02:30
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GIANT OUIJA BOARD posted:This is literally the duo already being discussed I thought it was Ng and Lake for some reason. I will hide in shame.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:33
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I've heard a couple seconds of the Toolbox Killers' tape and it certainly made an impression on me. Most of us aren't likely to ever hear a person scream like that in the regular course of our lives. The guy quoted in the Wikipedia article was certainly right about it not being like movie screaming.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:41
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WickedHate posted:He had theme music!? Here ya go! Along with the creepy as poo poo likeness of him that always makes my fists twitch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdElYnd-xMo
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Dec 28, 2016 03:38
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djssniper posted:Forget the transcript, there was a clip somewhere (I recommend NOT looking for it) where someone just had to leave, the doors of the court opened mid tape and you could hear a small bit of it, absolutely haunting
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Dec 28, 2016 04:05
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bean_shadow posted:The horrible case of Clive Wearing. A British man who has the worst kind of amnesia known in history, after the herpes virus somehow crossed the blood-brain barrier in 1985 after a bout of flu, destroying his hippocampus. His memory is, at best, 30 seconds long and at worst 7 seconds. He forgets what one is talking about mid-sentence. And yet he CAN remember, in a sense. For example, ask him where the kitchen is or ask him to show you where the kitchen is and he is hopelessly lost. But ask him to make some coffee or tea and he'll go into the kitchen and rummage around the correct drawers and cabinets. Have him watch a movie enough times and, although to him he won't remember a thing or ever remember knowing of the movie, can predict certain actions before they happen. As the years have gone by he has become less depressed and his conversations are less repetitive. His journal entries are especially frightening: And yet despite this he has lost none of his musical talent or skills. Singing, reading music, playing piano, conducting...all still there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymEn_YxZqZw
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Dec 28, 2016 04:07
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whiteyfats posted:I thought it was Ng and Lake for some reason. It's ok dude  At least you're posting content!
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Dec 28, 2016 04:09
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