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OAquinas posted:Eh, there's some evidence that this is a fungible thing, at least outside of Windrunners. Jasnah's roaring rampage of revenge on the would-be muggers, killing them as they ran away, wasn't a necessary thing. But she justified it as being for the greater good, protecting people in the future, so all's well in bondland. Mr. T and the secret societies follow consequentialist ethics, the Knights Radiant orders are varying types of non-consequentialist or virtue based ethics. The central theme of the series will be how to balance morally good actions (honor) with achieving morally desirable outcomes (cultivation).
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Jan 8, 2017 00:59
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It is possible that Taravangian could become a radiant since there are some similarities with Lifts experiences. After all, only a small fraction of the radiants have been seen and of that, a lesser amount having a POV with their spren. I am actually expecting (and rooting for) Szeth to kill Taravangian if they ever meet again. I would think that the methods Taravangian uses prevent any Honor spren from bonding with him. Would be a nice twist if he somehow bonds with an Odium spren and becomes his champion.
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Jan 8, 2017 06:37
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The Gardenator posted:It is possible that Taravangian could become a radiant since there are some similarities with Lifts experiences. After all, only a small fraction of the radiants have been seen and of that, a lesser amount having a POV with their spren. That could be interesting, although he got his ability supposedly from the night watcher, which is generally assumed to be related to cultivation. It would be odd for cultivation to give him his request, which I believe was something along the lines of the ability to save humanity, but have him fall to odium instead, as Odiums express purpose here seems to be to remove all humans from Roshar. I guess I could maybe see it if there is some way that Odium can attain what he wants without killing all the humans, and thus Taravangian allying with him to serve that purpose, but I don't know.
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Jan 9, 2017 15:18
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Pash posted:That could be interesting, although he got his ability supposedly from the night watcher, which is generally assumed to be related to cultivation. It would be odd for cultivation to give him his request, which I believe was something along the lines of the ability to save humanity, but have him fall to odium instead, as Odiums express purpose here seems to be to remove all humans from Roshar. I guess I could maybe see it if there is some way that Odium can attain what he wants without killing all the humans, and thus Taravangian allying with him to serve that purpose, but I don't know. Odium is really more focused against the Shards themselves. He didn't wipe out humanity on Sel, for example--just splintered the shards and left (and breaking Aon-Dor with that chasm). Which isn't to say the embodiment of divine hatred won't take swipes at humanity or hesitate to wipe them out of it helps distract the local Shards any; they're just far below his radar. The Desolations and the like are something probably forced by Honor, probably his trap to keep Odium imprisoned in the Roshar system.
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Jan 9, 2017 19:01
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OAquinas posted:Odium is really more focused against the Shards themselves. He didn't wipe out humanity on Sel, for example--just splintered the shards and left (and breaking Aon-Dor with that chasm). I agree that its likely that the Desolations are something Odium must resort to because of honors trap, I just kinda assume destorying humanity from Roshar is Odium's solution given the mass destruction and kill rate of the desolations.
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Jan 9, 2017 19:19
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OAquinas posted:Odium is really more focused against the Shards themselves. He didn't wipe out humanity on Sel, for example--just splintered the shards and left (and breaking Aon-Dor with that chasm). I think it's more a case of rational acting. Odium wants to destroy the other shards first and foremost. Scouring a planet of all life probably takes quite some time and power, things he can't waste of he wants to kill the others. They have priority, he can deal with lesser mortals at his leisure once he's the last of the sixteen standing. So just because he didn't bother with the humans on Sel after splintering Devotion and Dominion doesn't mean they are safe from him. On the other hand, we don't know if Odium has goals beyond killing the other shards, maybe he only wants to rule over the mortals. Just because he likely wants to wipe out life on Roshar shouldn't be taken as a hint at what he intends to do to other worlds. The desolations are probably his attempts to shatter the Oathpact and free him from the trap that kept him in the Roshar system.
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Jan 9, 2017 23:51
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Apparently Odium has a List, and is just working his way down.
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Jan 10, 2017 00:18
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Torrannor posted:I think it's more a case of rational acting. Odium wants to destroy the other shards first and foremost. Scouring a planet of all life probably takes quite some time and power, things he can't waste of he wants to kill the others. They have priority, he can deal with lesser mortals at his leisure once he's the last of the sixteen standing. So just because he didn't bother with the humans on Sel after splintering Devotion and Dominion doesn't mean they are safe from him. On the other hand, we don't know if Odium has goals beyond killing the other shards, maybe he only wants to rule over the mortals. Just because he likely wants to wipe out life on Roshar shouldn't be taken as a hint at what he intends to do to other worlds. The desolations are probably his attempts to shatter the Oathpact and free him from the trap that kept him in the Roshar system. Oh yeah, I never ruled out him wanting to wipe out everything later, just saying the shards were his primary target atm and if he could get to them without mucking around with planetary populations he would. But somehow Honor locked him into the conflicts on Roshar, so he's going to end this one way or another. Which is also the sole reason why the "Champion" suggestion has weight--Odium is bound by the Oathpact (apparently), so winning via champion fight is a lot quicker than wiping out the other side. Wonder how that would go--"Odium, I've come to bargain..."
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Jan 10, 2017 00:21
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Tunicate posted:Apparently Odium has a List, and is just working his way down. Most importantly: is he checking it twice
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Jan 10, 2017 00:26
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mewse posted:Most importantly: is he checking it twice Sure, but he performs 50 megachecks a second.
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Jan 10, 2017 01:02
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OAquinas posted:Oh yeah, I never ruled out him wanting to wipe out everything later, just saying the shards were his primary target atm and if he could get to them without mucking around with planetary populations he would. But somehow Honor locked him into the conflicts on Roshar, so he's going to end this one way or another. Which is also the sole reason why the "Champion" suggestion has weight--Odium is bound by the Oathpact (apparently), so winning via champion fight is a lot quicker than wiping out the other side. Wonder how that would go--"Odium, I've come to bargain..." But what's the flip side? In this theory, Odium escapes the Oathpact if his champion wins. But what would the heroes get if their champion wins over Odium's champion?
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Jan 10, 2017 13:33
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Some downtime until the next Desolation, presumably.
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Jan 10, 2017 13:46
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Surely it's a way out of the cycle of Desolations or some way of defeating Odium/booting him out of the Rosharan system, rather than just a reprieve? Also, guys, this happened today: https://twitter.com/_StormWatch/status/818978273048797185
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Jan 11, 2017 09:06
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Surely the point of the oathpact is keeping Odium contained so it doesn't go around splintering all the other shards.
Rumda fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 10:43
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The oath pact seems to be some kind of ideological argument between Odium and Honor, where between Desolations the Heralds return to Braize to be tortured by Odium until they give up at which point Odium gets a chance to destroy the people of Roshar again, if the Desolation is repelled the torture starts again. Honor is betting his guys won't break and will maintain this cycle, whereas Odium is betting they will give up. We're missing the full details on it but it seems to fit in that rough framework.
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Jan 11, 2017 11:01
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Leng posted:Surely it's a way out of the cycle of Desolations or some way of defeating Odium/booting him out of the Rosharan system, rather than just a reprieve? Which would have VERY interesting effects. Consider: Dalinar and essentially everyone on Roshar wants an end to the Desolations. Basic "stop killing us!!" reaction. Dal is advised to use the Champion system by the Stormfather/Honor's remnants. If they do this, they may request that if they win Odium leaves--which is what he wants anyway, so it's win/win for the big ball of hate. Hoid is very much vested in what's best for the Cosmere at large. Odium being stuck on Roshar means everyone else gets to keep on keeping on. "I will burn your world if it meets my goals" or something like that...Hoid as antagonist in the last books of this part of the SA cycle?
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Jan 11, 2017 19:51
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OAquinas posted:Hoid as antagonist in the last books of this part of the SA cycle? I've never really seen Sanderson as playing with conventions like that. Generally if a character is foreshadowed as a protagonist, they're gonna be, even if flawed. With Hoid in particular the way he acts (never taunting Renarin as King's Wit, welcoming Jasnah back to Roshar) make him a sympathetic character. It's the same reason I don't really think Taravangian will be revealed as benevolent later in the series. Mass killings for the greater good are Stalinesque and not something I'd expect from a Radiant. e: I'd argue even Szeth supports this argument. Doesn't he have tears in his eyes while he's mercilessly slaughtering scores of innocent people? mewse fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 20:36
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mewse posted:I've never really seen Sanderson as playing with conventions like that. Generally if a character is foreshadowed as a protagonist, they're gonna be, even if flawed. With Hoid in particular the way he acts (never taunting Renarin as King's Wit, welcoming Jasnah back to Roshar) make him a sympathetic character. He wouldn't be a mustache-twirling BadGuy™ but a "I recognize you want to save your world and admire that, but I can't allow it for the greater good" type. Like Taravangian only on an even bigger scale. Odds are they'd come to an understanding and he'd relent, because Good Guys, but the (explicitly stated) foreshadowing is there for him to work against Dalinar & crew.
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Jan 11, 2017 21:05
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OAquinas posted:He wouldn't be a mustache-twirling BadGuy™ but a "I recognize you want to save your world and admire that, but I can't allow it for the greater good" type. Like Taravangian only on an even bigger scale. I could see that.
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Jan 11, 2017 21:15
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Sorry are we still spoilering Words of Radiance? I'm an idiot
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Jan 11, 2017 21:17
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^^e: I don't know. I usually don't, but some others do. The book is out for more than two years, I thought that meant we could use unmarked spoilers? Or do we still spoiler things for people new to the series who might stumble into the thread?mewse posted:I've never really seen Sanderson as playing with conventions like that. Generally if a character is foreshadowed as a protagonist, they're gonna be, even if flawed. With Hoid in particular the way he acts (never taunting Renarin as King's Wit, welcoming Jasnah back to Roshar) make him a sympathetic character. I think OAquinas has a good point. Let's recall Hoid's own words: Words of Radiance, page 891 posted:Wit smiled. "I am but a man, Dalinar, so much as I wish it were not true at times. I am no Radiant. And while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen." Of course it could turn out that he Roshar doesn't have to "crumble and burn" to get what Hoid wants, but that's in no way guaranteed. Although I tend to agree with your sentiment that Hoid won't ultimately turn into a villain, considering the hints that he will be involved in most or all of the Cosmere storylines. But I won't rule out that his efforts will work against Dalinar, Kaladin and co. at some point in Stormlight Archive. Please recall that (Secret History spoiler) Kelsier and Hoid hate each other, and Brandon said in one interview that he wouldn't invite both of them to the same party because only one of them would leave it alive. Hoid left the coin for Wax to find out the Sovereign's real identity because he wanted to expose Kelsier and cause him trouble. So he has a complicated relationship with prior protagonists, it wouldn't surprise me if this continued in SA. I'm less sure about this part: OAquinas posted:Consider: Dalinar and essentially everyone on Roshar wants an end to the Desolations. Basic "stop killing us!!" reaction. Dal is advised to use the Champion system by the Stormfather/Honor's remnants. If they do this, they may request that if they win Odium leaves--which is what he wants anyway, so it's win/win for the big ball of hate. We don't know the exact timeline, but Honor somehow trapped Odium on Roshar, likely through the Oathpact. And Odium remains trapped even after he succeeded in killing Honor and shattering the Shard. Presumably, Honor felt sacrificing his life to prevent Odium from killing any of the other Shards was the honorable thing to do. So why would he tell Dalinar to appoint a champion, if it meant that Odium would escape the trap by both winning and losing such a contest? Even worse, what would stop Odium from later wiping out life on Roshar once he's free? I think we are still missing something here. Torrannor fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 22:15
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I wonder which honorblade(s) Hoid will get his hands on in Stormlight. Or how Nightblood would react to his presence.mewse posted:I've never really seen Sanderson as playing with conventions like that. Generally if a character is foreshadowed as a protagonist, they're gonna be, even if flawed. With Hoid in particular the way he acts (never taunting Renarin as King's Wit, welcoming Jasnah back to Roshar) make him a sympathetic character. Szeth is, by all accounts, probably the most honor-bound character so far in the series and by a significant margin. The entire reason he exists as the Assassin in White is because he fully believed he was Truthless and completely bound to do the will of whomever gave him an order, no matter how terrible. Nale even mentions something to that effect in SA2. He's like the Ned Stark of Roshar when it comes to honor, horrible consequences and all. Hoid taunts Renarin once briefly before getting threatened by Dalinar (or Adolin, I forget) but he knows a lot of the nobility is openly contemptuous of Renarin due to his illness and while Hoid's an rear end he's not enough of an rear end in a top hat to join those kinds of people in picking on Renarin in that sort of situation. Sympathetic is not a word I'd use to describe views towards Hoid in any Cosmere appearance though.
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Jan 11, 2017 22:55
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Hoid doesn't see himself as a good person, for what it's worth.
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Jan 11, 2017 23:11
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Is there a dune thread? I just started reading it today
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Jan 12, 2017 00:06
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Torrannor posted:We don't know the exact timeline, but Honor somehow trapped Odium on Roshar, likely through the Oathpact. And Odium remains trapped even after he succeeded in killing Honor and shattering the Shard. Presumably, Honor felt sacrificing his life to prevent Odium from killing any of the other Shards was the honorable thing to do. So why would he tell Dalinar to appoint a champion, if it meant that Odium would escape the trap by both winning and losing such a contest? Even worse, what would stop Odium from later wiping out life on Roshar once he's free? I think we are still missing something here. The champion clause is there for whatever reason. Probably because it's so stinkin' honorable Honor wouldn't be able to not have it in the deal. As for the recommendation, keep in mind its a remnant of Honor, a rather jaded and fatalistic one at that. With the parshmen everywhere and no Radiants and the Heralds AWOL, Humanity is basically superscrewed and going to lose. So their best--only--chance is the champion appointment. As for what Odium does, he'd likely be bound by the agreement. So if they ask him to leave, he'll leave...and again, his targets are the shards first and foremost. I'd expect him to turn Roshar into a literal hell when he finishes his self-appointed splinterfest and starts focusing his hate on regular folk.
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Jan 12, 2017 01:06
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Some of the arcs on SA make me think of some good anime and JRPGs. Therefore I can clearly see Hoid appearing close to something important and saying "Sorry folks, you have your good reasons, but I can't let you do this. " Then, either fighting everyone just to show how much he is overpower, or unleashing some doomsday machine unto them. Only to go away on a shrug saying. " well if you want it this badly, who am I to stop you? " Then disappearing. Cuz he's Hoid.
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Jan 12, 2017 02:08
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RC Cola posted:Is there a dune thread? I just started reading it today If you search the book barn it becomes clear that every thread (including the George R. R. Martin thread, but particularly the main sci-fi and space opera thread) in this subforum is a Dune thread. ulmont fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Jan 12, 2017 |
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Jan 12, 2017 02:49
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OAquinas posted:The champion clause is there for whatever reason. Probably because it's so stinkin' honorable Honor wouldn't be able to not have it in the deal. As for the recommendation, keep in mind its a remnant of Honor, a rather jaded and fatalistic one at that. With the parshmen everywhere and no Radiants and the Heralds AWOL, Humanity is basically superscrewed and going to lose. So their best--only--chance is the champion appointment. Hopefully we get an explanation about why Odium would care in the slightest about the champion thing. Because if he wasn't infected with a splinter of Honor I can't imagine what else would make an entity like Odium ever care about keeping to an oath of any kind.
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Jan 12, 2017 03:05
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Evil Fluffy posted:Hopefully we get an explanation about why Odium would care in the slightest about the champion thing. Because if he wasn't infected with a splinter of Honor I can't imagine what else would make an entity like Odium ever care about keeping to an oath of any kind. Probably a similar deal to Ruin/Preservation. The Shards are all close to each other in power (except Harmony, since he's x2) so one can entrap another for a period of time at a high cost to their life. Odium is stuck, then he can get partially free for Desolations, and if he wins then he gets all the way free.
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Jan 12, 2017 05:15
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mewse posted:Sorry are we still spoilering Words of Radiance? I'm an idiot Torrannor posted:^^e: I don't know. I usually don't, but some others do. The book is out for more than two years, I thought that meant we could use unmarked spoilers? Or do we still spoiler things for people new to the series who might stumble into the thread? I have been spoilering major plot points from any Sanderson books and Cosmere stuff, only because there are people new to Sanderson joining the thread all the time and this is a general Sanderson thread, not a Stormlight thread... Torrannor posted:Of course it could turn out that he Roshar doesn't have to "crumble and burn" to get what Hoid wants, but that's in no way guaranteed. Although I tend to agree with your sentiment that Hoid won't ultimately turn into a villain, considering the hints that he will be involved in most or all of the Cosmere storylines. But I won't rule out that his efforts will work against Dalinar, Kaladin and co. at some point in Stormlight Archive. The few tidbits we know about Hoid are just tantalising. It is know that Hoid is Sanderson's favorite character and that we won't actually get Hoid's backstory until Dragonsteel or as a main character until Mistborn 4. All we know is that he's been accumulating stockpiles of Investiture and skipping around the Cosmere using Feruchemy to figure out where/when he needs to be. And we will still never, never know what would have happened if Vin had chosen to talk to him... Torrannor posted:I think we are still missing something here. It's not just us, it's everyone. WoB has confirmed that the Heralds don't have a complete understanding of the Oathpact either. They think that what they did in the Prologue of A Way of Kings was enough to break it but it was not.
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Jan 12, 2017 10:12
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Leng posted:And we will still never, never know what would have happened if Vin had chosen to talk to him... Someone asked Brandon that, and he answered they would have had a very interesting conversation
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Jan 12, 2017 10:44
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But he didn't give us a rundown of that conversation!  Would it have changed what Vin decided to do? I am still blown away after Edgedancer to realise that there was significance to the ugly lizard crab thing because I honestly thought that was just in there for irony/laughs.
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Jan 12, 2017 13:44
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Leng posted:But he didn't give us a rundown of that conversation! Wait, the ugly lizard crab thing was significant? I thought it was just a cremling. It wasn't one of those weird Aimians was it?
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Jan 13, 2017 05:46
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seaborgium posted:Wait, the ugly lizard crab thing was significant? I thought it was just a cremling. It wasn't one of those weird Aimians was it? That's the implication, though sometimes a cremling is just a cremling.
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Jan 13, 2017 06:17
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seaborgium posted:Wait, the ugly lizard crab thing was significant? I thought it was just a cremling. It wasn't one of those weird Aimians was it? Would hoid pass up the opportunity to insult a bug person?
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Jan 13, 2017 06:24
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Tunicate posted:Would hoid pass up the opportunity to insult a Fixed it for you
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Jan 13, 2017 11:19
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Rumda posted:Fixed it for you I just finished Mistborn Secret History. Did I miss what became of the device Kelsier stole from the Ire?
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Jan 14, 2017 18:37
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gohmak posted:I just finished Mistborn Secret History. Did I miss what became of the device Kelsier stole? He used it to temporarily make himself compatible with Preservation to hold it in one piece between Leras dying and Vin getting her earring yanked out
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Jan 14, 2017 18:40
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M_Gargantua posted:He used it to temporarily make himself compatible with Preservation to hold it in one piece between Leras dying and Vin getting her earring yanked out Yeah I just went back to that part. I don't know how I missed it. He used the knife given to him by Nazh to puncture the orb.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:06
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Evil Fluffy posted:That's the implication, though sometimes a cremling is just a cremling. In this specific instance, confirmed by WoB as reported on the 17th Shard.
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Jan 15, 2017 10:43
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