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Entropy238 posted:Being able to bulk a rogue out with fighter levels would be helpful. One would hope that any class that can't do its job properly as a pure build is getting heavily reworked in Deadfire. I mean, everything's getting heavily reworked anyway. (Random off the cuff idea: give every frontline class fighter-tier durability by default. Design fighters to excel at engagement manipulation and area denial instead.)
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Jan 31, 2017 11:50
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It's mot that rogues can't do their job, but said job does not really need doing imo. I think this is partly a carryover from dnd and similiar where you needed rogues for skillmonkey/stealth shenanigans, neither of which is really a thing in poe, but rogues didn't get anything else to do either. Rogue fighter (or really rogue anything melee) is an obvious combo with build in synergy, kind of like mini sneak attack was a great cross class talent in PoE1. More curious about what reasons they could give us for wizard/cyphers or druid/priests. Avalerion fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 12:07
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Conversely actually, I find that if you're playing the game too well (i.e. laying down hard cc often and successfully and with good defensive spells) then having a Monk around becomes sub-par because it's really hard to get wounds. This is why I wouldn't want to mix a Monk in a group with a high level Cipher, because Defensive Mindweb is so powerful it actually hampers your ability to get wounds. I hope Ropekid has nerfed that ability for PoE2 - either make it so that the cipher has to concentrate to use the ability or reduce its duration to make it an "oh poo poo" button.
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Jan 31, 2017 12:08
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Agreed. Rogue schtick of "single target awesome damage" just isn't one that comes up a ton, and there's heavy diminishing returns on it in the first place. People love to brag about their killing blows, but those mostly involve lots of damage being wasted on overkill. And outside of that, they don't...provide anything else. I feel the monk chassis isn't entirely unworkable, but it starts from a place that doesn't exist (which is why I was nervous about the five man team being described as a "traditional D&D team plus one more" - that team doesn't exist here!). There isn't room for "squishy but damaging" in a game where enemies will all gravity towards killing squishy and there's little to no tools to stop that. But even beyond that initial chassis, rogues need more oomph. Like, consider high level powers. Right as fighter starts to drift out, they get Charge, which is amazing. You can charge directly through the enemy line and stab every squishy THEY have without fear. Barbarians get Heart of Fury which is just amazing in every way. But rogues? Rogues get extremely situational escape methods. And I get what they were going for - again, the rogue is more of an assassin then anything else; pick target, murder, run away - but that doesn't need doing, and thus the escape methods aren't really useful. Rogues don't need more ways to escape the fight, because they have to be IN the fight to actually do their job in the first place. It's just very confusing design that doesn't click with the rest of the game. The rogue feels like it came from a different game and got stapled in. EDIT: Defensive Mindweb might be the most powerful ability in the entire game. Sure, it makes monks less good. But it doesn't matter. Because you're invincible.
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Jan 31, 2017 12:15
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Entropy238 posted:Conversely actually, I find that if you're playing the game too well (i.e. laying down hard cc often and successfully and with good defensive spells) then having a Monk around becomes sub-par because it's really hard to get wounds. Yeah, I'm playing a monk game at the moment, and while I love where they sit on the survivability/damage output graph and their abilities, I don't really like the wound mechanic. "Do well but not too well" is an awkward target. I don't think any of the other classes are like that either- there's never a situation where a cipher could be doing too much damage, or where a chanter doesn't want to be chanting.
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Jan 31, 2017 12:17
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ProfessorCirno posted:GENERAL MELEE CLASSES: Thanks, that's great. I think I'll go pally instead of rogue on my first game.
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Jan 31, 2017 12:29
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If you want a low maintenance party without a lot of micromanagement then I strongly endorse the "everyone grab a rifle except the tank" approach, regardless of your class choices. Just make sure your opening volley is a good one.
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Jan 31, 2017 12:32
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Michael Bayleaf posted:Thanks, that's great. I think I'll go pally instead of rogue on my first game. In terms of the orders, they don't make that much difference, so I'd just go with the one that you think looks best for RP reasons (given the importance of the dispositional requirements). If you are interested in eking out marginal gains though, Goldpact and Bleak Walkers are the best alpha strikes, with a bonus fire DoT and extra corrode damage respectively on Flames of Devotion. Goldpacts have the advantage that only Scion of Flame (the fire buffing talent) is required to boost their FoD damage whereas Bleak Walkers need that and the corrode talent (though the corrode talent synergises incredibly well with one of the unique weapons). For buffing paladins, Shieldbearers are probably best, as their special talents focus on making sure your allies don't get hit, Kind Wayfarers for healing paladins. Darcozzi Paladini are somewhere between the two.
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Jan 31, 2017 12:38
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Paladins are the best tanks in the game. I spec mine for low damage but high tankiness and support. It plays great when your tank can throw big heals, give haste and accuracy bonus, suspend negative effects and more. It frees other classes for even more buffs or DPS.
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Jan 31, 2017 13:21
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Also, don't roll a Godlike. Their racial bonus are not enough to compensate for the lack of head slot.
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Jan 31, 2017 13:23
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Yeah, I rolled a godlike and while it didnt bother me that much (I wasn't playing PotD anyway) the bonus definitely didn't even come close to competing with a helm. There's probably some niche builds out there where a certain Godlike bonus is actually better than helms, but for a regular playthrough where you're not planning a specific build in advance helms are always gonna be better gameplay-wise. E: That said it isn't all bad, since they're typically stronger at the start of the game at least. But given you miss out on flexibility as well as power in late-game it's not a great trade-off.
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Jan 31, 2017 13:34
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Paladins are great and only argument against is that the companion paladin already exists.
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Jan 31, 2017 13:59
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Avalerion posted:Paladins are great and only argument against is that the companion paladin already exists. There are enough companions that you don't have to use Pallegina. And in Deadfire, you can always just multiclass her into a fighter or something. Given her story, I imagine you'll have to take her first level as a paladin though. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 14:05
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Fire Godlikes and Moon Godlikes are definitely worth it under certain circumstances. For example, the Fire Godlike retaliation racial synergises with the Monk's Turning Wheel, Lightning Strikes and Raw wounds lash so at high levels and with scion of flame will hit dudes for anywhere between 80 110 damage every time they hit you. Moon Godlikes are always useful to have the extra healing around, especially on a tanky kind of character where they're not going to "miss" a step e.g. 100% health to 25% health. Though I think helmets tend to be very good, like the Maegfolc Skull which gives +4 Might and Unbending per rest. It seems to me that some of the really good helmet properties in the game were an attempt to disincentivise cheesy godlike builds.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:07
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Moon Godlike sounds good, but once you get to WM/Act 3, there's a poo poo-ton of spells and consumables that regens your endurance as fast as you lose it anyway (except in very specific situations like the Dragons breath attacks that do stupid damage) so I'd often find myself in tough battles watching the endurance pop up and down while health plummeted. Past act 2 I barely noticed the Moon Godlike bonus on my Barbarian. Sure did finish a lot of battles with characters going from full health to sub 50% though - honestly, that was a FAR bigger reason to rest than regaining spells in my experience. Though even on Hard with a 2 camp carry limit I always had at least 1 left at any time so it still wasn't that bad. It's part of why I'm not too interested in playing PotD though, seems like that could get pretty annoying.
Insurrectionist fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 14:12
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Fire Godlike paladin tanks were definitely not terrible if you used them as aggro sinks.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:13
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rope kid posted:Their 1st level must be one of their base classes. Edér's are fighter or rogue. Aloth's is wizard. You could make Edér a pure fighter, pure rogue, fighter/anything, or rogue/anything. You could make Aloth a pure wizard or a wizard/anything. Sorry, I meant can I go Rogue first level, Fighter second level, Wizard 3rd level, etc...
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Jan 31, 2017 14:15
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CottonWolf posted:There are enough companions that you don't have to use Pallegina. Yea I just really like her, her, Eder and Sagani are probably my favorites of the lot. 
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Jan 31, 2017 14:20
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Entropy238 posted:Fire Godlikes and Moon Godlikes are definitely worth it under certain circumstances. For example, the Fire Godlike retaliation racial synergises with the Monk's Turning Wheel, Lightning Strikes and Raw wounds lash so at high levels and with scion of flame will hit dudes for anywhere between 80 110 damage every time they hit you. Moon Godlikes are always useful to have the extra healing around, especially on a tanky kind of character where they're not going to "miss" a step e.g. 100% health to 25% health. Yeah I did a Fire Godlike Monk run on POTD and didnt' regret it. The DR was nice. That character could accumulate wounds like no other since I went with 18 con + heavy armor. His DPS was still exceptional with swift strikes.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:25
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ProfessorCirno posted:GENERAL MELEE CLASSES: Thanks this is all v. good stuff, if anyone wanted to do the same wall of writing about the other classes I would be happy to read the heck out of that as well, as I plan for my canon run. (Will probably play a cipher again, like I did on my first and only complete play through, because they're rad.)
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Jan 31, 2017 14:26
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rope kid posted:I recorded a video today going over multiclasses in detail. It should go up later this week. Thanks! Here's my big question: Will taking a single level of a second class lock me out of endgame spells for my first class? I.e., if a cipher takes one rogue level, will he be ultimately locked out of endgame cipher powers? Two levels? Three?
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Jan 31, 2017 14:29
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Will taking a single level of a second class lock me out of endgame spells for my first class? I.e., if a cipher takes one rogue level, will he be ultimately locked out of endgame cipher powers? Two levels? Three? If it works like Pillars 1 with talents on even levels, and skills on odd levels, you should be able to get the final tier of spells when you hit the level cap if you take one level of another class, but no more. But obviously they're redoing the progression with multiclassing in mind, so... I don't see how you balance it when some classes get their core feature at level 1, while others get increasing access to their main feature scaling through the game. Unless you scale, for instance, carnage damage with the number of levels you have in barbarian, or pet damage with your levels in ranger. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 14:35
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Furism posted:Also, don't roll a Godlike. Their racial bonus are not enough to compensate for the lack of head slot. This is only true if you have no NPCs. If you are not playing solo this is unbelievably wrong; fire godlikes can do absolutely absurd damage, moon godlikes never die. If you ARE solo...then it's still hard to weigh the pros and cons.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:40
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CottonWolf posted:If it works like Pillars 1 with talents on even levels, and skills on odd levels, you should be able to get the final tier of spells when you hit the level cap if you take one level of another class, but no more. But obviously they're redoing the progression with multiclassing in mind, so... Right, that's exactly where I'm going with this. Can a cipher take one level of Rogue for a sneak attack, then still get final-tier powers, or not? etc.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:41
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Barbarian/Monk are the most 'hit buttons' of the Melee classes, right? Probably carrying over my POTD Paladin and would like to multiclass into something a little less boring, assuming Paladins don't get a lot more active in POE2. Like she has a lot of buttons but most of them were reactive except Sacred Immolation.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:43
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ProfessorCirno posted:NPC Chanters, far as I know, are still bugged in ways that make them just terrible. Say what now? Hieronymous Alloy posted:Right, that's exactly where I'm going with this. Can a cipher take one level of Rogue for a sneak attack, then still get final-tier powers, or not? etc. We might see the return of D&D's "Sneak Attack scales with your class level" approach. So you could probably do this, but would only get like a 10% damage bonus or something. AnEndcat posted:Barbarian/Monk are the most 'hit buttons' of the Melee classes, right? Probably carrying over my POTD Paladin and would like to multiclass into something a little less boring, assuming Paladins don't get a lot more active in POE2. Like she has a lot of buttons but most of them were reactive except Sacred Immolation. There's always melee Wizards. Or melee Druids. Or melee Ciphers. Though Paladins get plenty of active abilities. It's just that most of them focus on buffing rather than outright damage.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:52
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rope kid posted:Their 1st level must be one of their base classes. Edér's are fighter or rogue. Aloth's is wizard. You could make Edér a pure fighter, pure rogue, fighter/anything, or rogue/anything. You could make Aloth a pure wizard or a wizard/anything. We get to pick some characters' starting class? That's rad as hell. When I heard Edér was a fighter/rogue I assumed that either multiclassing works like D&D 4e (essentially leveling both classes at once) or he joined at level 2 with one level of each. It's cool that the player gets to pick his starting class from his two "main" ones. I also like that it lets companions with two possible base classes fit into a wider variety of party compositions. Got too many fighters and paladins, but still want to use Edér? No problem, he's a rogue now.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:55
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I'd probably take my Cipher Cipher/Paladin, because I am feeling the profound need to go holy war on some giant statue's rear end.
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Jan 31, 2017 14:57
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Harrow posted:We get to pick some characters' starting class? That's rad as hell. When I heard Edér was a fighter/rogue I assumed that either multiclassing works like D&D 4e (essentially leveling both classes at once) or he joined at level 2 with one level of each. It's cool that the player gets to pick his starting class from his two "main" ones. Yeah this will ameliorate the five-character problem considerably.
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Jan 31, 2017 15:00
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Samuel Clemens posted:There's always melee Wizards. Or melee Druids. Or melee Ciphers. Yeah, but they were usually buttons you saved until something happened- Lay of Hands, Reviving Exhortation and Healing Chain for... well, healing; Liberating Exhortation for dealing with whatever status effects you didn't have Prayer up for (unless you were the right kind of Paladin for the accuracy bonus); Deprive the Unworthy on... Okay, I never actually took it to be honest. Hastening Exhortation, Sacred Immolation and Flames of Devotion that were more actively used and two of those felt relatively boring to use, even if they had a decent effect. Meanwhile you had the Monk summoning spirit clones of himself and the Barbarian leaping around the battlefield like a JRPG Dragoon. It could just be I'm bad at using Paladin, though.
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Jan 31, 2017 15:02
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Mulva posted:I'd probably take my Cipher Cipher/Paladin, because I am feeling the profound need to go holy war on some giant statue's rear end. I was thinking of doing the same thing, depending on how well the two classes' abilities play together. I really want to play a Darcozzi Paladini at some point, but if I'm importing my cipher Watcher, I'd feel odd retconning his class (assuming we can even do that with an imported character). Speaking of paladins: rope kid, will paladins still get mechanical bonuses/penalties from reputations based on their order? I loved that Darcozzi Paladini get a better Faith and Conviction bonus for being hotheaded smartasses. AnEndcat posted:Barbarian/Monk are the most 'hit buttons' of the Melee classes, right? Probably carrying over my POTD Paladin and would like to multiclass into something a little less boring, assuming Paladins don't get a lot more active in POE2. Like she has a lot of buttons but most of them were reactive except Sacred Immolation. I'd say monk is probably the most. Melee wizard is very "hit buttons" but I found that a lot of the buttons you hit are self-buffs, and that's not really my style. I'd much rather do the monk thing where you start out relatively passive but eventually just turn into a flurry of "press button, awesome thing happens" once you get a few wounds. Melee cipher is pretty active, too, and is basically reverse monk: where monk gets more things to do as you get hit, cipher gets more things to do as you hit things. Harrow fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 15:05
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With my Monk I just turned on Swift Strikes and then hit my Torment's Reach button endlessly. Once I got the Clone ability I used that too.
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Jan 31, 2017 15:09
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Yeah, that's how I played Zahua when I had him in my group. Put up Swift Strikes and then just AoE destroy everything. There are other ways to play monk, too, but that was really effective. The only reason I eventually dropped him from my group was because I already had a cipher, priest, wizard, and druid, and micromanaging all of that plus a monk was just slowing fights to a crawl. So I replaced him with Maneha wielding Tall Grass, which is about as set-it-and-forget-it as a barbarian gets. That said, simple AI scripting could let that style of monk take care of itself pretty easily. Just "if wounds > X -> Torment's Reach on target." vvv Luckily PoE monks own with bare fists. I did have Zahua carry around some sabers just in case there was an enemy immune to crush damage, though.
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Jan 31, 2017 15:10
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Monks using anything but fists or staves triggers me something awful
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Jan 31, 2017 15:10
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Samuel Clemens posted:Say what now? They'll just...stop chanting. At least, Kana does. And he just starts suddenly having multiples of the chant I gave him. It's weird. Harrow posted:I'd say monk is probably the most. Melee wizard is very "hit buttons" but I found that a lot of the buttons you hit are self-buffs, and that's not really my style. I'd much rather do the monk thing where you start out relatively passive but eventually just turn into a flurry of "press button, awesome thing happens" once you get a few wounds. As much as I enjoy cipher for it's dialogue options and always end up going melee, it suffers hard from having no weapon attacks, which puts it in a similar position as the wizard. It can self-buff and debuff and give some crowd control, but it's weapons will never matter beyond grabbing more focus and auto-attack DPS. If you want a melee class with lots of stuff to do and a focus on melee, the answer is monk every time.
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Jan 31, 2017 15:12
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I don't know if paladins would make a good multiclass with cipher - they're real scalers imo and I suspect faith and conviction will scale too. Still - sworn enemy would be really good with any offensive class, as would the one that gives you defensive bonuses when you down foes. I'd probably pick a monk cipher. Rogue/Barbarian will prolly be simple and effective.
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Jan 31, 2017 15:14
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ProfessorCirno posted:As much as I enjoy cipher for it's dialogue options and always end up going melee, it suffers hard from having no weapon attacks, which puts it in a similar position as the wizard. It can self-buff and debuff and give some crowd control, but it's weapons will never matter beyond grabbing more focus and auto-attack DPS. Yeah, agreed. Monk is the clear choice for an active truly melee class. The other thing about cipher compared to monk is that you don't get to rapid-fire hit your buttons if you're using high-level powers. You can build focus pretty quickly with a melee cipher, but you're probably going to have at least a little downtime between your button->awesome moments. With a monk, you spend a little time building up, and then you go nuts. Entropy238 posted:I don't know if paladins would make a good multiclass with cipher - they're real scalers imo and I suspect faith and conviction will scale too. Still - sworn enemy would be really good with any offensive class, as would the one that gives you defensive bonuses when you down foes. I'd probably pick a monk cipher. Holy poo poo monk/cipher sounds nuts. Depending on how multiclassing ends up working, I might feel obligated to at least try that. The ultimate combination of body and mind 
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Jan 31, 2017 15:15
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ProfessorCirno posted:They'll just...stop chanting. At least, Kana does. And he just starts suddenly having multiples of the chant I gave him. It's weird. I think your Kana might be possessed. You should get him to a doctor. Or a priest.
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Jan 31, 2017 15:18
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Harrow posted:Holy poo poo monk/cipher sounds nuts. Depending on how multiclassing ends up working, I might feel obligated to at least try that. The ultimate combination of body and mind That really sells it. I think I know what I'll build Xoti into. (Unless we get our Vithrak cipher. I still believe.)
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Jan 31, 2017 15:22
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Harrow posted:Yeah, that's how I played Zahua when I had him in my group. Put up Swift Strikes and then just AoE destroy everything. There are other ways to play monk, too, but that was really effective. The only reason I eventually dropped him from my group was because I already had a cipher, priest, wizard, and druid, and micromanaging all of that plus a monk was just slowing fights to a crawl. So I replaced him with Maneha wielding Tall Grass, which is about as set-it-and-forget-it as a barbarian gets. There is a fun monk build on the forums using Long Pain that basically turns the monk into a gatling gun.
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Jan 31, 2017 15:24
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