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Random rear end in a top hat posted:My problem with the wizard changes is it's very hard to balance a lot of cool wizard spells per-encounter. Like Slicken, for example: I can cast a spell that knocks every enemy on their rear end four times an encounter, every encounter? If you do that in PE1 it trivializes most fights (give it a try sometime!). So how does that spell work in the new system? I'm going to guess one of the balancing mechanisms is cutting the number of spells per level to 1 or 2 per encounter instead of 4+. Otherwise you'd have the insanity of like 40 per encounter spells you literally could never spend. Having like 15 with 1 of higher level spells makes things a lot more interesting. It'd also make bonus spell talents a lot more effective and powerful.
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Feb 3, 2017 01:58
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Zore posted:I'm going to guess one of the balancing mechanisms is cutting the number of spells per level to 1 or 2 per encounter instead of 4+. Yeah, this hadn't occurred to me but this is also a good idea, especially the last bit.
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Feb 3, 2017 02:06
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All the changes sound good to me but maybe I'm a crazy person and like to see my RPG series actually evolve and try to improve the gameplay than just shovel more content into my maw. Sometimes a series taking a wrong turn is better than just stagnating.
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Feb 3, 2017 02:08
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpKyazh8mUI Multi-classing video from Josh.
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Feb 3, 2017 02:22
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A good way to cut down on the nomenclature is to just add "mind" as a prefix to all cipher combinations. Mind fighter, mind paladin, etc $3 million stretch goal needs to be raising money to get rope kid a goiter and a lot of chocolate and rich foods so we can complete his metamorphosis into George Lucas
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Feb 3, 2017 02:37
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Good that we have confirmation you can get subclasses in both your classes. Also Ropekid call Cipher/Rogues soulblades tia. And Fighters/Cipher psychic warriors And Wizards/Ciphers psions And Chanters/Cipher Bards 
Zore fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 02:39
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 I'm liking the future of the Big Heads feature.
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Feb 3, 2017 02:42
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Basic Chunnel posted:A good way to cut down on the nomenclature is to just add "mind" as a prefix to all cipher combinations. Mind fighter, mind paladin, etc Why would you wish this on the poor man
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Feb 3, 2017 02:42
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Enigmatic Cakelord posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpKyazh8mUI This sounds dope (also ducks).
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Feb 3, 2017 02:43
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isk posted:This sounds dope (also ducks). awww yiss ducks. e: My only feedback don't be a dick about multiclassing. I remember in most DnD games I've played, if you say did Fighter 1/2/3/4/5, and then did Wizard at 6, you'd lose a BAB because you only got that at Fighter 6. When you eventually jumped back to Fighter at 7, you would never see that BAB again. You entirely hosed yourself due to not knowing something you couldn't have ever known about unless you previously played a Fighter or had the rulebook in front of you. Had you done Fighter 1/2/3/4, then Wizard at 5, followed by Fighter at 6, you'd have only taken a slight knock to HP but got the BAB. It also just might have been BG dual classing, I'm not sure of the specific difference. I just know I got really burned trying to make cool multiclasses in BG through dual classing, and then got burned again in another DnD RPG a few years later by that BAB scenario happening to me. I'm cool with it not really working for dumb combinations ( don't be a Priest/Rogue! What do you get from that. ), but if I make a cool combination like Fighter/Wizard and then lose crucial Fighter stuff just because I didn't know I was going to get it at level 4 or something, I'm not going to be multiclassing. Rookersh fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 02:44
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Aw poo poo, there were a ton of alternative names for enemy classes (eg battlemages, or were they warmages) that they could use for hybrid classes now. It being a piratey setting they've got to bring back Shanty-Singers.
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Feb 3, 2017 02:46
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Zore posted:Good that we have confirmation you can get subclasses in both your classes. Which class is Dragon King, and can I turn Deadfire into Dark Sun? On the topic of double VO, I wish they were more clear. Twice as much what? Double compared to Pillars? More than that? I'd prefer it to be defined, such as the critical path being fully voiced or companions and their quests. There's no way to know what this stretch goal means when we eventually boot up Pillars 2. Edit: Feargus on Fig posted:I do hear you. Personally, I really do want to add more VO to the game, so what we can have complete VO conversations and make sure that the increased dialog with companions will also all be voiced. So that is a little more concrete at least. I disliked characters cutting in and out of VO between lines, so fully voiced companions is sweet. Enigmatic Cakelord fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 02:47
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PoE 2 is still going to have the option to respec your character right? If you implement an AD&D-style multiclassing system it would be a little less flexible in that you have to make your choice up-front, but if you can just respec later I don't see that being a big hurdle? Seems like a better solution to asking people to sperg out over which level to take when (though I mean being totally up-front I am one of the kind of people who would do just that)
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Feb 3, 2017 02:52
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Enigmatic Cakelord posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpKyazh8mUI EXCLUSIVE titles for each multiclass option??? gently caress yes
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Feb 3, 2017 02:57
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That's 11 classes, 55 multiclass variations, and 22 subclasses. That's a lot of fricking names.
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Feb 3, 2017 02:58
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"Name a multiclass" obviously needs to be a backer level now.
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Feb 3, 2017 03:11
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Rookersh posted:I remember in most DnD games I've played, if you say did Fighter 1/2/3/4/5, and then did Wizard at 6, you'd lose a BAB because you only got that at Fighter 6. When you eventually jumped back to Fighter at 7, you would never see that BAB again. You entirely hosed yourself due to not knowing something you couldn't have ever known about unless you previously played a Fighter or had the rulebook in front of you. Had you done Fighter 1/2/3/4, then Wizard at 5, followed by Fighter at 6, you'd have only taken a slight knock to HP but got the BAB. In 3/3.5 you got the extra attack whenever your BAB hit a multiple of 6. So as soon as you got to +6 you went to +6/+1, no matter what combination of classes got you there. So a Fighter 6/Wizard 1 would have a +6 from fighter and +0 from wizard and so they'd be +6/+1.
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Feb 3, 2017 03:31
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My recollection is that you got the extra attack at 5N+1, so at +11 it would be +11/+6/+1
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Feb 3, 2017 03:35
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FreeKillB posted:My recollection is that you got the extra attack at 5N+1, so at +11 it would be +11/+6/+1 This is correct.
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Feb 3, 2017 03:37
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bongwizzard posted:I don't think it's especially bad and I also like Action RPGs, but there are already a ton of each out there while there is basicly nothing else like IE/PoE1 happening. I am currently retrying both Dragon Age: Origins and Divinity; Original Sin to see if I could get into them and nighter have managed to grab me the way the BG1/2 or PoE1 managed too. Take a small break from PoE and go try out PoE to scratch the arpg itch.
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Feb 3, 2017 03:45
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Rookersh posted:awww yiss ducks. rope kid fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 03:57
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Enigmatic Cakelord posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpKyazh8mUI
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Feb 3, 2017 04:03
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Enigmatic Cakelord posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpKyazh8mUI That is a huge box of Nerds, how apropo
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Feb 3, 2017 04:15
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Enigmatic Cakelord posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpKyazh8mUI neat. hey, that handwriting on the whiteboard is way too neat to be written by our pal Josh. Josh is really good at explaining game design concepts, he should write a book about it someday.
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Feb 3, 2017 04:34
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That multiclassing video got me hyped as hell to sit around pondering character ideas and how to advance them.
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Feb 3, 2017 04:35
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Zore posted:Also Ropekid call Cipher/Rogues soulblades tia. As amusing as that is, clearly they are Mindtakers.
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Feb 3, 2017 04:37
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Pwnstar posted:That multiclassing video got me hyped as hell to sit around pondering character ideas and how to advance them. hell^yeah. and if they actually are able to pull off all 55 combinations and "balance" everything that will be quite an achievement.
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Feb 3, 2017 04:41
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I've got a real quick question about WM2 ending--When I'm getting philosophical with the eyeless, it's only letting me make a couple points under each, uh, umbrella. Like I can mention being a watcher and Maneha's memory loss, but then I can't bring up Zahua. This has me wondering if I've rendered myself unable to temper Abydon by siding pro-animancy in the hearing. The party I've got with me is Aloth/Devil/Pallegina/Maneha/Zahua. I don't really know how to go poking around in the code to figure this out, unfortunately.
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Feb 3, 2017 04:45
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rope kid posted:We've tried to avoid this by using a scale with the required granularity. +1 can't really be reduced (excepting things like "half ranks" of skills). The scale for Power Source is such that +3 represents a full level of progress and +1 is (obviously) a third of that. There are no levels where you get 0 points in a source and every level is always +3 in the current class' source, +1 in the alternate(s). Someone yesterday raised a concern about splashing one level of a secondary class being too attractive. For example, if you're a wizard and you take one level of fighter, you're giving up 2 Arcane, but in return, even if you never take another level of fighter, you're getting 20 Discipline (by level 18), with all of the fighter abilities that entails. Is there some scaling mechanism in place so that 20 of a power source isn't actually all that great--for example, would your fighter abilities be so weak as to be borderline useless with 20 Discipline at level 18? Or is there a final power level that you can only reach at 54 of a power source (single class all the way to 18) so that giving up 2 of one for 20 of another is a bigger trade-off than it seems? Harrow fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 04:52
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Looking at the thresholds in the video, 20 Discipline would reach Power Level 4, which would be the abilities a single-classed fighter would get at level 7. That is hopefully enough to provide a little utility and flexibility, but probably would be underpowered in various aspects when doing level 18 content. I assume that reaching that final level gives you something specific and useful (although by the listed progression Power Level 9 at 50 points would be the end, unless of course the pattern breaks at the end), which would provide room to balance the single-class purist against someone that single level of multiclassing (which might happen somewhat often, given that players might use it to in effect shift the classes of the fixed companions). e: reading what rope kid is saying, it won't even be as much as a level 7 fighter gets, because the system appears to be 'you gain abilities directly by leveling up the class, but they're scaled by the class' Power Level.' This means that taking one (or two, if I'm doing my math right) levels of fighter in our example will give our hypothetical multiclass character only a fraction of the fighter options that a pure 7th level fighter gets. FreeKillB fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 05:25
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Harrow posted:Someone yesterday raised a concern about splashing one level of a secondary class being too attractive. For example, if you're a wizard and you take one level of fighter, you're giving up 2 Arcane, but in return, even if you never take another level of fighter, you're getting 20 Discipline (by level 18), with all of the fighter abilities that entails. If ever taking a secondary class locks you out of endgame powers that would make me a sad panda. My hope is that you'll just get fewer endgame powers -- i.e., two not three of the top level cipher powers, etc.
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Feb 3, 2017 05:29
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FreeKillB posted:Looking at the thresholds in the video, 20 Discipline would reach Power Level 4, which would be the abilities a single-classed fighter would get at level 7. That is hopefully enough to provide a little utility and flexibility, but probably would be underpowered in various aspects when doing level 18 content. Yeah, that's probably a good point. If 20 Discipline is the equivalent of a level 7 fighter, that's not really that much utility once you're level 18. That said, I could see a melee wizard getting a whole lot out of that one-level dip, depending.
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Feb 3, 2017 05:31
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That's a good question and one of the major potential fault lines for min-maxing, as it was in 3E. If you only took one level of a class, you'd only have the foundation abilities/spells of that class, albeit with 20 points/4 levels in the Power Source. You'd reach 9th level abilities a level later in your main class (18th instead of 17th), but you'd still get access to them with 9 levels in that Power Source. Still, you'd have one fewer 9th level ability because of that lag. I think a lot of it will depend on the relative power between a level 1 ability scaled up to 4th level and the inherent power of a 9th level ability/flexibility of having two 9th level abilities. It's definitely one of the main things we're keeping an eye on since we don't want to make the maxed-out single class character obsolete.
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Feb 3, 2017 05:32
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I'm already having wet dreams about how much rear end a cipher-barbarian (Spirit Chaser?) would kick.
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Feb 3, 2017 05:35
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Harrow posted:Yeah, that's probably a good point. If 20 Discipline is the equivalent of a level 7 fighter, that's not really that much utility once you're level 18. That said, I could see a melee wizard getting a whole lot out of that one-level dip, depending.
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Feb 3, 2017 05:41
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rope kid posted:That's a good question and one of the major potential fault lines for min-maxing, as it was in 3E. If you only took one level of a class, you'd only have the foundation abilities/spells of that class, albeit with 20 points/4 levels in the Power Source. You'd reach 9th level abilities a level later in your main class (18th instead of 17th), but you'd still get access to them with 9 levels in that Power Source. Still, you'd have one fewer 9th level ability because of that lag. I think a lot of it will depend on the relative power between a level 1 ability scaled up to 4th level and the inherent power of a 9th level ability/flexibility of having two 9th level abilities. It's definitely one of the main things we're keeping an eye on since we don't want to make the maxed-out single class character obsolete. Still sounds like one of those early alpha things that you scrap and talk about later on in a video saying "yeah we had this awful clunky system before we came up with X"
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Feb 3, 2017 05:41
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Our companions have to take their first level in a class that is related to their character, but I wonder about taking a class that would be in opposition to who they are? I don't mean making Eder a wizard, but something like making him a Priest of Skaen or a Bleak Walker.
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Feb 3, 2017 05:44
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55 Hybrid class names? Sounds like a job for goons, here's one: Thief + Paladin = Goonlord. 
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Feb 3, 2017 05:47
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oswald ownenstein posted:Still sounds like one of those early alpha things that you scrap and talk about later on in a video saying "yeah we had this awful clunky system before we came up with X" Lmao
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Feb 3, 2017 05:49
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oswald ownenstein posted:Still sounds like one of those early alpha things that you scrap and talk about later on in a video saying "yeah we had this awful clunky system before we came up with X" Nah.
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Feb 3, 2017 05:51
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