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I'm a dues paying member in AL, for the op
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Feb 12, 2017 06:13
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:DSA people who think the Dems can be reclaimed should carefully study what happened to the Rainbow/PUSH coalition between 1984, when Jesse Jackson ran for president on a platform of multiracial social democracy (at the helm of an energized left wing coalition that even included Maoist factions), to 1992 when Bill Clinton won the general election thanks in no small part to Jackson's leftist activists, to 1994 when the same Bill Clinton signed the crime bill and enacted welfare reform. This time a million. It'd be nice to inherit a name brand, but in the wake of the November defeat they've become completely delusional and don't acknowledge the shift in political landscape (Pelosi: "I don't think people want a new direction." "We're capitalist, and that's just the way it is."). Instead of reaching out to the unions and civil organizations, the DNC leadership sought new donors and went on fancy retreats. There was a brief moment where ridiculous change could have happened, but that moment passed with no change to speak of. The Democratic party currently exists as the Republican party's flank defender. Look at the primary. Bernie's quasi-leftist movement didn't get the chance to go against the Republicans, as the entire DNC (save for a few, forward thinking members of congress) fought him tooth and nail. They red baited their asses off.
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Feb 12, 2017 07:12
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maybe instead of complaining that bad dems won't literally roll over and resign in shame, you should run good candidates for office and convince more people to vote for them than the bad dems so you don't have to deal with their bullshit anymore part of why the left has failed to reform the party is because they just run a flashy presidential candidate every four years and then give up because serious political change is boring and hard
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Feb 12, 2017 07:19
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trevor forever
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Feb 12, 2017 08:58
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:DSA people who think the Dems can be reclaimed should carefully study what happened to the Rainbow/PUSH coalition between 1984, when Jesse Jackson ran for president on a platform of multiracial social democracy (at the helm of an energized left wing coalition that even included Maoist factions), to 1992 when Bill Clinton won the general election thanks in no small part to Jackson's leftist activists, to 1994 when the same Bill Clinton signed the crime bill and enacted welfare reform. Maybe you should teach us, because I was not aware of any serious attempt by Jacksons Org to "reclaim the Democratic Party" in any meaningful way. Meanwhile, the folks who did try to reclaim their party have someone in the white house. Your argument that we should give up and continue to leave power in the hands of people who dont particularly like us seems weak at best.
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Feb 12, 2017 13:31
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HorseRenoir posted:maybe instead of complaining that bad dems won't literally roll over and resign in shame, you should run good candidates for office and convince more people to vote for them than the bad dems so you don't have to deal with their bullshit anymore 
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Feb 12, 2017 13:38
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This is an argument almost as old as socialism itself. Basically the DSA is using entryist tactics to try and shift the dems leftward or maybe go about a french turn eventually down the line. I tend to disagree with these tactics just based off of how they have worked in the past, specifically in france during the 30s and labour militant in britain during the 70s and 80s. We'll see how it works out for DSA, I'm obviously hoping that they are successful even if I don't think they will be.
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Feb 12, 2017 13:56
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I feel like Momentum in the UK has done a drat good job of moving Labour left, and thats despite Corbyn not being exactly the greatest politician, and DSA seems to be following in its example. Hell Momentum only has 20k members, and the DSA is nearly there (ignore that the US has 10x the UK population).
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Feb 12, 2017 14:12
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doing nothing is not an option doing what's been done in the past hasn't worked out too well at the state or federal level starting a true third party as an electoral party with its own ballot lines turns out to be a dead end because of the structure of us voting laws (fptp, ballot access) having a non electoral party mount active and aggressive and sustained resistance,* putting immense pressure on both democratic and republican incumbents, and later primarying democrats and using their ballot line for better candidates wherever appropriate or desirable is the best -- and essentially only -- way forward. also, that though it sickens me to say it and is no guarantee of success, it worked well for the tea party *eta including organizing, coalition building, rallies, etc in all states, and using good public speakers, simple and direct messaging etc. Red Dad Redemption has issued a correction as of 14:23 on Feb 12, 2017 |
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Feb 12, 2017 14:15
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I feel like something huge that's been simmering under the surface for a few years has finally bubbled up. I doubt I'm going to see a better chance to bring genuine power to the left wing in my lifetime so I'm gonna give it whatever I've got. Even the moderate right wing Democrats I know are fuming at the incompetence the party has shown in the last few months. Like, the DSA sure as gently caress shouldn't treat the Democrats as our only avenue to effect change. Hell yes we should run our own candidates to take over the party, but we should be stepping hard on the already elected officials where we live. We should be directly pushing policies and make existing politicians terrified to not pick them up. And if a particular entrenched politician won't change his tune we're gonna have to have the credible threat of Nadering them. We need to use every weapon at our disposal.
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Feb 12, 2017 15:21
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GlyphGryph posted:Maybe you should teach us, because I was not aware of any serious attempt by Jacksons Org to "reclaim the Democratic Party" in any meaningful way. Meanwhile, the folks who did try to reclaim their party have someone in the white house. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/bernie-sanders-jesse-jackson-campaign here's an article that talks about Sanders and Jackson. interestingly in 1988, Sanders believed that Jackson would have been better off running as a third party candidate. oh well http://isreview.org/issue/61/can-left-take-over-democratic-party here's a piece about it from like 10 years ago https://socialistworker.org/2016/07/25/how-democrats-got-over-the-rainbow here's a more recent one from last year long story short: people have been trying since the 30's to do an entryism on the Dems and it has never worked. it has helped deliver a lot of votes for neoliberal Democrats though!
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Feb 12, 2017 15:24
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The Democrats would make a good right-wing opposition party.
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Feb 12, 2017 15:27
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MShadowy posted:Just got back from the Denver DSA meeting; glad I had a chance to participate. Got pretty hot in that little room with all the people attending, but that's fine. I think I count 4 Goons in the Denver DSA (including my wife.)  We should meet up next time.
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Feb 12, 2017 15:27
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Zimbardo, where in those links does it talk about a serious attempt at entryism or reclaiming or taking over the party. I only read all the way through the first one and it didnt even tangentially touch on it so I am just assuming they are all equally bullshit right now.
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Feb 12, 2017 15:52
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well these guys ran candidates at all levels and negotiated over the party platform, mobilizing millions of people in an inside/outside campaign to push the party to the left but that doesnt seem relevant to taking over the party so i guess youre right
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Feb 12, 2017 16:03
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:well these guys ran candidates at all levels and negotiated over the party platform, mobilizing millions of people in an inside/outside campaign to push the party to the left but that doesnt seem relevant to taking over the party so i guess youre right Maybe the problem is you if they did but you cant actually demonstrate that.
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Feb 12, 2017 16:09
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what in your mind constitutes a "serious attempt" to "take over" the party
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Feb 12, 2017 16:19
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:what in your mind constitutes a "serious attempt" to "take over" the party They could maybe go out and vote for the changes they pressured the dems to implement
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Feb 12, 2017 16:25
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:what in your mind constitutes a "serious attempt" to "take over" the party Taking as many seats as possible by primarying incumbents, challenging other factions, replacing them with your own loyalists, converting those who are already sitting to your faction; doing that and continuing to do that for as long as possible. I don't think that's going to be an unconventional understanding. Maybe he did that, or at least tried to. If what you said here was true... DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:well these guys ran candidates at all levels and negotiated over the party platform, mobilizing millions of people in an inside/outside campaign to push the party to the left but that doesnt seem relevant to taking over the party so i guess youre right Then it should be pretty drat easy to demonstrate. Then you need to follow that up, if you really want to back up your original point, with an explanation of how that made things worse for us rather than better, since your first article (which again, is the only one I read since reading it did no favours for your credibility) argued the exact opposite.
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Feb 12, 2017 16:35
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are you suggesting it didnt try because it didnt succeed? or that it didnt actually mobilize millions of black and white working class and "progressive" (back then called "liberal") voters to get engaged with democrats and push it to the left?
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Feb 12, 2017 16:35
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sure but what does that have to do with gang tags, fuckers
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Feb 12, 2017 16:42
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it sounds like all those people did it wrong, but us, we're gonna do it right
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Feb 12, 2017 16:52
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https://www.thenation.com/article/rainbows-gravity/ i mean its uncontroversial to say that Rainbow fought in primaries at all levels mostly because the dems created the DLC, superdelegates, and the super tuesday primary system to try to stop them
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Feb 12, 2017 17:02
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So doctor imbardo are you suggesting that the left instead act as spolilers. Because that really gets one to power. Let me tell you.
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Feb 12, 2017 17:12
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:https://www.thenation.com/article/rainbows-gravity/ i mean its uncontroversial to say that Rainbow fought in primaries at all levels mostly because the dems created the DLC, superdelegates, and the super tuesday primary system to try to stop them was the push for rainbow's gravity just to get jackson into the presidency? I'm not very familiar with it. Were they pushing for any specific policy or big change? I think there is a huge failure in spending all your effort on a presidential candidate. Especially for a grassroots movement in the democratic party. The biggest and most important thing seems to be getting people into positions like democratic county chair, state chair and vice chair, voting in precinct captains/officers and getting people into local offices. Over time that lets you vote on things at the state and national level and influence bylaws that can change the party. Its also important to bring up that rainbow push is still active and its list of 'demands' leaves a lot to be desired in terms of issues. To me it looks like a movement that tried to bank entirely on a presidential candidate and then lost and sort of petered out. When building any sort of movement its important to make the issues first and foremost, the candidates are just a means to an end. Thats also why its important not to get too attached to candidates like Bernie or whoever the Dems decide to put forward in 2020. Any Dem going up against Trump in 2020 has a very high chance of losing just because he's an incumbent, I don't care what popularity polls or any other dumb poo poo people say. I want to bring up Kshama Sawant again because I think she provides a very good example for candidates for the radical left. She ran for office while she was also involved in 15 Now in Seattle. She ran as an activist and made 15 Now the focus, not herself. After she won she continued to work on 15 Now until she convinced the lovely dem city council to adopt a 15 dollar minimum wage. And she continues to operate this way. She doesn't just go about her city council duties and nothing else. She's an activist who puts the issues she supports first and foremost (Defunding DAPL by taking $3b out of wells fargo most recently) and she's in the streets regularly fighting with the people. Doorknob Slobber has issued a correction as of 17:39 on Feb 12, 2017 |
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Feb 12, 2017 17:26
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You know guys we can totally consume the Democrats. It will take time but its possible. We have to start from the bottom, get socialists and progressives elected at the bottom level everywhere. Primary some fuckers everywhere. Contest everywhere.
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Feb 12, 2017 18:16
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:https://www.thenation.com/article/rainbows-gravity/ i mean its uncontroversial to say that Rainbow fought in primaries at all levels mostly because the dems created the DLC, superdelegates, and the super tuesday primary system to try to stop them Pretty prescient for Democrats to institute superdelegates even before Jackson's run in '84
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Feb 12, 2017 18:23
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they didn't institute super delegates until 84. that was the first primary with super delegates. but after 84 they added many more super delegates, taking some away from big city mayors and giving them to congress and DNC officials.
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Feb 12, 2017 18:51
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Fullhouse posted:it sounds like all those people did it wrong, but us, we're gonna do it right Revolutions generally dont work until they do, but sometimes they do. Effort doesnt guarantee success, only chances, and any victory will not come easy, quickly, or unopposed.
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Feb 12, 2017 18:52
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Let's focus on building a sustained base of community engagement first, and then worry about how best to use its collective political voice. I wouldn't say it's so much about consuming the Democratic party as it is about liberating Democratic candidates from the pressure to court big money donors, by creating a visible, organic support base for whomever will fight to return the power of capital to the people, and so forth.
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Feb 12, 2017 19:07
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Read the article. For my own part I think Jackson was right, and did good especially with PUSH, and actually managed to accomplish quite a bit, so I am not entierely sure why you think he was so wrong and ineffectual. Honestly if anything it just sort of convinced me the approach was correct so uh... good try?
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Feb 12, 2017 19:11
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If we're talking about third party vs influencing dems and talking about the failure rate of trying to influence dems you also have to talk about the failure rate of third parties in the US. Talking about right now we've got greens, libs and constitution party. None of those are very successful. I think the Green's biggest success has been a mayor or two. I don't know enough about the libs which probably speaks enough about their success and I hadn't even heard of the constitution party until I checked wikipedia. Then there is the huge long list of historical no longer existing parties in the US who have also all failed.
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Feb 12, 2017 19:45
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What about third-parties that start local-only and build up to state-level seats? Any precedent there?
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Feb 12, 2017 19:47
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Accretionist posted:What about third-parties that start local-only and build up to state-level seats? Any precedent there?
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Feb 12, 2017 19:52
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Accretionist posted:What about third-parties that start local-only and build up to state-level seats? Any precedent there? That's sort of what SA is in the process of doing right now. They have Sawant as a council member but they ran Sawant as a state house rep first, then later ran Jess Spear for the house seat (both losses). They also ran Ty Moore for a seat in Minneapolis and Seamus Wheaton in Boston who both lost in 2013. This year they're running Ginger Jentzen in Minneapolis for a city council spot.
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Feb 12, 2017 19:54
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Accretionist posted:What about third-parties that start local-only and build up to state-level seats? Any precedent there? I think that if starting from scratch with democratic socialism is something you're interested in you would be well served looking at Socialist Alternative. This is their goal, they are a political party of democratic socialists that runs their own candidates. They are small, they've mainly run candidates for city council. The biggest problem with that strategy is that doing that from scratch requires an enormous amount of effort, time and/or money. Think about it, with the Ds you've got millions of people who will just check the box next to the D regardless of who that person is. That is the level of engagement for those people, D or R. Building up that support takes an enormous amount of effort and just burrowing your way into the minds of voters over decades. Doorknob Slobber has issued a correction as of 19:59 on Feb 12, 2017 |
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Feb 12, 2017 19:56
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Internet Explorer posted:I think I count 4 Goons in the Denver DSA (including my wife.) I'd be glad to; and I guess as to a hint to my identity. MShadowy posted:I am an anime; alas.
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Feb 12, 2017 22:53
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More Orlando news lmao http://eastorlandopost.com/ucf-socialist-club-incites-young-kids-kill-donald-trump
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Feb 12, 2017 23:22
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Venom Snake posted:More Orlando news lmao quote:In neighboring Seminole County, Tax Collector Joel Greenberg, one of Florida's youngest countywide constitutional officers slammed the display from Knights for Socialism.  holy poo poo
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Feb 13, 2017 00:00
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MShadowy posted:I'd be glad to; and I guess as to a hint to my identity. Ah, you and I talked. My wife and I were leaning against the wall across from you once we shuffled the rooms. Love your Starsector stuff! We'll have to catch up next time.
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Feb 13, 2017 00:17
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