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Fintilgin posted:I also wish they'd keep the health/endurance system Yea, this was one of the more elegant "hit points" system I have seen. Every tough fight weakens you more and more, but very rarely if at all will a single fight force you into having to rest if you enter into it anywhere close to full strength. Litany Unheard posted:I just have a real strong trust in Obsidian so if they think these moves are going to make the game better I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Plus a lot of this is going to change once the beta is running, anyways, so it's hard for me to get too worked up over it. I would have felt this way more if Tyranny wasn't so awful. It shook my confidence in them bigtime.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:02
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bongwizzard posted:I think they are even putting in a system that detects when you are overwhelmed with having to think ahead and the game auto pauses and makes a gentle cooing sound until you calm down, truly a wondrous age!
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Feb 24, 2017 02:03
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bongwizzard posted:Yea, this was one of the more elegant "hit points" system I have seen. Every tough fight weakens you more and more, but very rarely if at all will a single fight force you into having to rest if you enter into it anywhere close to full strength. Tyranny was better than Pillars though?
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Feb 24, 2017 02:06
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FreeKillB posted:Unless dungeons get respawning enemies or the like, the only thing stopping players from resting between each and every encounter is that it's extremely tedious to walk back and forth to inns. There is this thing called willpower my dude. If playing in a certain way makes it less fun, maybe don't play that way? Just because you can do something doesn't mean you have too.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:06
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bongwizzard posted:Yea, this was one of the more elegant "hit points" system I have seen. Every tough fight weakens you more and more, but very rarely if at all will a single fight force you into having to rest if you enter into it anywhere close to full strength. What was so bad about Tyranny? It wasn't perfect by any means but I liked a lot of things about it.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:06
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bongwizzard posted:Yea, this was one of the more elegant "hit points" system I have seen. Every tough fight weakens you more and more, but very rarely if at all will a single fight force you into having to rest if you enter into it anywhere close to full strength. It was a smart and good system and I'm sad to see it go.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:06
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Dolash posted:Tyranny was better than Pillars though? Someone call this guy a cab, he is too drunk to drive home.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:07
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bongwizzard posted:There is this thing called willpower my dude. If playing in a certain way makes it less fun, maybe don't play that way? Just because you can do something doesn't mean you have too. By this explanation though you could just use your per-encounter powers "per rest" and use your willpower to resist using them more than that, then go rest and come back.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:07
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Dolash posted:By this explanation though you could just use your per-encounter powers "per rest" and use your willpower to resist using them more than that, then go rest and come back. You could also play on story mode and not bother with tactical combat at all.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:08
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Dolash posted:Edit: going to add that a lot of what you're saying is about how the terms are sort of artificial and illusions around the setting's central conceit about how souls work, but that's meant to be something you build up to understanding by the end of the game as a plot twist and I'm trying to understand it from the perspective of someone starting the game. A revelation doesn't work if you have to work backward from it to reverse-engineer what was meant to be interesting or surprising about it from some starting position. Well, fundamentally you're gonna come up against a brick wall here, namely that Pillars was kinda written in a big old jumble and doesn't always cohere as well as a more precisely planned text. Ciphers are in the game because D&D had Psions as a class and Obsidian needed a stretch goal. Writers wrote Cipher fluff into the game on the basis that they were like D&D Psions with D&D psionic powers. Awakened are in the game because that's your heroic excuse, the internal conflict that compels the protagonist to go out and beat up bad guys because otherwise they'll die from spirit madness. Watchers are in the game because that's your heroic power, the weird unique power that enables you to beat up aforementioned bad guys by seeing into other people's souls and knowing their true feelings or whatever. Awakened and Watcherism really don't deserve to be separate concepts and the game would have been better for just rolling them up into one thing. This is essentially what happens with Obsidian's other "curse" stories: Torment's immortality, KOTOR2's Force-wound, NWN2's silver sword, MotB's spirit eater curse.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:09
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I wish Hiravias was in this game, just so he and Ydwin could flirt with each other in the dirtiest, raunchiest way imaginable. Everyone realizes that Ydwin isn't anime, but instead is a foul-mouthed pirate lady that mocks everyone relentlessly.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:10
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Mulva posted:You could also play on story mode and not bother with tactical combat at all. Would def. recommend. It was a weak answer to FreeKillB's comment, though - he was right that "per rest" abilities are an illusion if there's no actual restriction on resting, so if the answer is to just pretend like there is then you might as well pretend there are restrictions on ability use.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:10
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Grognardism is rarely based on logical argument.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:12
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:What was so bad about Tyranny? It wasn't perfect by any means but I liked a lot of things about it. Mainly it was the awful combat. It was just overwhelmingly dull, the enemies were super samey, the lack of FF made positioning pointless, the magic, while pretty, all felt very much the same with little to really differentiate them from each other. The cooldowns were super annoying to manage and the combats were mostly just pausing every three seconds to click through each of my guys to see what they could do. Even the magic system was dull, rather than be excited to rework all my spells it became a slog as gaining happened so often that I seemed to constantly have to tweak stuff, but even the tweaks were never super exciting, mostly just "more damage/range". It was like the SR games where every combat was "get into cover, use abilities to kick the enemy out of cover, then shoot them" repeated forever. I loved the intro but like once I got midway into Act 1 and saw that it would never become more mechanically interesting I ran out of steam. The idea of a more-evil Judge Dread/cog in an awful system was solid but I feel like they wanted to make an Adventure game or VN but only had a RTwP Iso engine to work with.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:16
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tyranny did hav that hover over lore feature which is gonna be great for future rpg & romance writing tho
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Feb 24, 2017 02:20
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TEENAGE WITCH posted:tyranny did hav that hover over lore feature which is gonna be great for future rpg & romance writing tho Yeah this was a great feature and I'm surprised it's never been done before. Cue a dozen goons telling me about an older game that also had such a feature.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:22
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Everything that Tyranny did differently from PoE in terms of gameplay made it worse. The cooldown-based combat became a chore boiling down to mindlessly cycling through abilities a few hours in, the injury system was dumb and led to snowballing, the spell crafting was cute but in the end just amounted to more busywork, and that's kind of all I can think of right now. I've got ambivalent feelings about the skill trees, but I assume they're not going to matter for a class-based system with sub-classes and multi-classing. There are some things that I think Tyranny did better than PoE, but the mechanics were just worse in every way.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:23
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Ornamented Death posted:Yeah this was a great feature and I'm surprised it's never been done before. Well there was like a ten or fifteen year gap there where nobody was bothering to make this kind of game.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:23
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FreeKillB posted:Per rest mechanics cannot be meaningful without restricting the freedom of exploration. Unless dungeons get respawning enemies or the like, the only thing stopping players from resting between each and every encounter is that it's extremely tedious to walk back and forth to inns. This means that per rest systems are basically just per encounter systems with an illusion of strategic resource management. But sure, anyone who wants to remove super-outdated mechanics is clearly a casual newb lol. Unfortunately I'm an adult now and I'm not going to spend 5-10 minutes of my vanishing free time hoofing to an inn between every fight. Were it that time were as illusory a resource as the rest
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Feb 24, 2017 02:24
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bongwizzard posted:There is this thing called willpower my dude. If playing in a certain way makes it less fun, maybe don't play that way? Just because you can do something doesn't mean you have too. I don't mean the 'illusion' thing as a dig on the designers, for the record. Subjective player experience definitely matters! I think the empowerment system and the revised injury system will hopefully continue to make things feel like you're moving through a continuous adventure. The current design does seem to have the advantage of being uniformly applied across classes, at least on paper. Maybe some classes will care more about empowering their abilities, but it probably won't be as asymmetric as before.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Well there was like a ten or fifteen year gap there where nobody was bothering to make this kind of game. No love for Jeff Vogel, eh?
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Feb 24, 2017 02:26
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TEENAGE WITCH posted:tyranny did hav that hover over lore feature which is gonna be great for future rpg & romance writing tho That should be used for like every game, it was so so good. It got me to read a ton more lore than I normally ever bother with. FreeKillB posted:Maybe some classes will care more about empowering their abilities, but it probably won't be as asymmetric as before. See, I really like having the different classes work in, in some cases, pretty different ways. It makes replaying the game far more attractive if I can get a really different experience by picking different classes. The only PoE1 class that I felt was really underpowered/dull were Chanters, but honestly I have not really given them a fair try. bongwizzard fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Feb 24, 2017 |
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Feb 24, 2017 02:27
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Ornamented Death posted:No love for Jeff Vogel, eh? Let's just say he wasn't exactly breaking new grounds in terms of UI.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:29
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Let's just say he wasn't exactly breaking new grounds in terms of UI. Oh man I just bought the Geneforge series and I am not sure I can take it. Trying to make my left hand use arrow keys is not going well.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:32
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Wizard Styles posted:Everything that Tyranny did differently from PoE in terms of gameplay made it worse. . . Actually yeah that's probably fair. PoE's system is just more refined. I kinda wonder at what point in development Tyranny's system "branched off" from PoE's. What I really liked about Tyranny though was that the writer had real balls. He wasn't afraid to thrust the player into a blind situation with unforseeable consequences, wasn't afraid to have real choice that cut off or altered content in a real way, and put the player into actual alternate paths that hit content in significantly different order and at different times instead of just relying on a hub & open world demographic. Mechanically, there was one concrete improvement on PoE: I liked how they had a degree of scaling for items so if you found a good item at low levels you could upgrade it or you could find it at high level and it would already kick butt.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:37
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About the move away from per-rest abilities, I went back to a save where I don't use the Vancian casters today and it just feels better. It gets annoying to rely solely on a Cipher for CC, but obviously that's not going to be an issue in PoE2. I'm not far in but it also feels like the difficulty curve is much better, especially since you can't punch above your weight as easily. Going through the first Endless Paths floors at level 5 is actually a challenge now, and I'm pretty sure there's no way I'll be able to face Cail the Silent any time soon. Also, I hate Xaurip Skirmishers with a passion now.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:46
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Dolash posted:Tyranny was better than Pillars though? Tyranny had a couple nice features that Pillars did not, and the writing/pacing was better in several ways/places. Other than those details, Tyranny did not even come close to being better than Pillars.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:48
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I liked Tyranny a lot. A whole lot. It's still not even close to as good of a product as Pillars on the whole. It is a rough, rough game that would benefit from a sequel to refine on its ideas.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:51
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Actually yeah that's probably fair. PoE's system is just more refined. I kinda wonder at what point in development Tyranny's system "branched off" from PoE's. The second act didn't live up to that and I dropped the game at some point because it couldn't keep my interest enough to make up for the gameplay's shortcomings, but I loved the first act. quote:Mechanically, there was one concrete improvement on PoE: I liked how they had a degree of scaling for items so if you found a good item at low levels you could upgrade it or you could find it at high level and it would already kick butt. (I haven't read the update about the changes to item enchantments yet.) Wizard Styles fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Feb 24, 2017 |
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Feb 24, 2017 02:58
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The big win of switching to per-rest abilities, I think, is that it makes is easier to tune encounter difficulty because there is a narrower range of power levels that a party wandering into a fight will have. Because the arsenal of abilities resets after each encounter, you can tune on an encounter-by-encounter basis rather than needing to worry about the whole dungeon. With per-rest gameplay you have to keep asking "If a party keeps dying at this spot is it because the encounter was too hard or was it because a previous encounter drained their resources?" Balancing for per-rest abilities is about balancing for inconvenience (how often will a player need to rest or travel back to resupply) rather than difficulty—which an unfun gate for challenge. Since players can't know (without a guide) what's coming up, they are left guessing about how to budget their abilities which makes it super likely that they'll either spend per-rest abilities too slowly (which means they don't use their coolest powers) or too quickly, (in which case we punish them through boredom—you have to make a trek through empty maps). Neither of those is compelling gameplay. From a fun perspective, the ideal situation that per-rest abilities allows is for an exhausted party to barely make it through a fight, desperately using their last consumables or weird spells they'd normally never bother with to eke out a victory. Since players can miss this experience entirely by resting too often, it seems like it would be much easier to create this situation by occasionally having *longer fights* with waves of reinforcements. So instead of exhausting resources across a dungeon, you exhaust them in a single encounter. (I'm taking Obsidian seriously when they say they are going to have less trash mob fights in PoE II.)
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Feb 24, 2017 02:59
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Power Bottom posted:Tyranny had a couple nice features that Pillars did not, and the writing/pacing was better in several ways/places. For me the better pacing was the difference between "play it through within a week of release and immediately try another path in a replay" and "play it for a couple hours then put it down for a year", so any of the other mechanical or story comparisons are practically moot. The difference between the fairly tightly-paced and flexible Act One of Tyranny and the meandering start to Pillars is staggering, and while the rest of Tyranny had issues at least they were ones you'd actually get to. It also gives me great confidence that they won't make the same mistakes with Pillars 2 though so that's good.
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Feb 24, 2017 03:06
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Rope kid laying out the facts: https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/834883376330899458
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Feb 24, 2017 03:14
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Captain Oblivious posted:Remember, PoE as a whole thoroughly rejects Bioware/standard high fantasy-esque ideas of races possessing a uniform culture. Nationality/Regional identity trumps racial identity in the PoE world. If you expect a PoE companion to act as a Mass Effect style mouth piece for their species you'll probably be disappointed when you get a Pallegina-esque response of *shrug* Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's also possible that ciphers have like a basic ability to sense soul energies but not with the same precision as a full Watcher. bongwizzard posted:I agree that starting at level 16 would be a little absurd, but is so many people here are super into the continuous narrative arc, there are a lot of us who are super into a mechanical arc. One of the huge appeals of BG2/BE2 was the ability to do a continuous run and watch your guy grow from "killed by a wolf" to "I kill gods".
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Feb 24, 2017 03:26
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FreeKillB posted:Rope kid laying out the facts: As an incurable weeb I can confirm: elves are quite possibly the most anime concept ever invented.
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Feb 24, 2017 03:26
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do people NOT want a pale waifu or something??????
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Feb 24, 2017 03:26
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ydwin takes character design choices in line with tumblr (ashy hair, kawaii look~, boy cuts, sincere love of anime, sincere love of anti social social club),, gamers have bad vibes because its aesthetic choices that women vibe wit
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Feb 24, 2017 03:30
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ydwin's romance will be long con for her to pinpoint and extract the essence of love in order to create more loyal flesh monsters "wear this copper helmet for me watcher, it'll be so romantic, great! now just stand real still for a moment..."
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Feb 24, 2017 03:39
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2house2fly posted:
Yeah, I don't know if this is "Canon" but that's my headcanon to reconcile all the different lore in PoE 1. Basically, after years of training a Cipher can get an intuitive sense of an item's history or whatever, but a Watcher gets hit on the head with the wrong kind of rock and suddenly 
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Feb 24, 2017 03:39
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frajaq posted:do people NOT want a pale waifu or something?????? Apparently? People are weird
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Feb 24, 2017 03:52
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If you think about it the Silmarillion was basically the first anime.
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Feb 24, 2017 03:52
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