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I'd say this is way more similar to Rise of the Tomb Raider than Far Cry, if we're going to insist that games are the same because they're the same genre.
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Mar 1, 2017 20:08
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The fourth Override skill is the ability to summon a mount even if you didn't have one, and while I don't have that skill yet, I like having a Strider or Broadhead handy for long distance trekking because as you said, fast travel is a bloody resource for some reason.
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Mar 1, 2017 20:10
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You can buy an infinite fast travel item.
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Mar 1, 2017 20:14
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Emron posted:I'd say this is way more similar to Rise of the Tomb Raider than Far Cry, if we're going to insist that games are the same because they're the same genre. Yeah I'd put it somewhere along a mix of Tomb Raider, The Last of Us, and any number of survival games where you hunt animals for their useful parts to craft stuff. It's pretty impressive that they managed to do both stealth and loud combat without causing the usual issue of having the game slanted one way at the expense of the other. Yeah you can hide in grass and stealth kill stuff but when you get into a proper fight it isn't like the game is hobbling your ability to fight by trying to jam a stealth peg into a loud hole or vice versa where stealth comes like an afterthought to add a bunch of grueling play hours to the game (SUP FFXV). It's surprisingly well-balanced as far as the few hours I've played have gone. Since I started off going with the "find extra resources" skill, it seems like I'm flush with crafting ingredients and always full on medical herbs but I'm also playing through on normal so I don't go through ammo and meds as fast.
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Mar 1, 2017 20:32
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http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...w-a7605551.html This article has all this talk about how important this game is culturally and in the current political climate, and yet I can't help but think of how much more that would have resonated if instead of just leaning on indigenous cultures for inspiration, Aloy had been an actual woman of color. It seems doubly unfortunate given that concept art depicted her that way originally.
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Mar 1, 2017 20:52
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veni veni veni posted:Yeah you can turn them off. You wouldn't happen to know what hud option is it would you?
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Mar 1, 2017 20:57
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TFRazorsaw posted:http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...w-a7605551.html That design looked really nice, too.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:01
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Didn't they also talk, at one point, how of the various tribes Aloy's was one of the first to "hunt and raise their bows" when they were first showing it off? which is pretty y i k e s
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Mar 1, 2017 21:05
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Justin_Brett posted:That design looked really nice, too. I don't think I ever saw that original design. Any idea where I can find it? TFRazorsaw posted:Didn't they also talk, at one point, how of the various tribes Aloy's was one of the first to "hunt and raise their bows" when they were first showing it off? I mean, not all the Nora are white. There are black and Asian Nora as well. None of the tribes in Horizon are divided along what we'd see in the real world as racial lines. As for them being the first to "hunt and raise their bows," I feel like that gets a little less weird if you consider that human history has basically restarted from scratch in Horizon, so the way things were in our world don't necessarily have any bearing on the people of Horizon's world as far as they're concerned. I do agree that Aloy should've been a woman of color, though. I've already met a couple of black female NPCs and thought, "I'd rather play a character who looked like that." I guess Aloy's red hair is important (both as something it seems Guerrilla wanted her to have early on and as something enemies identify her by), but red hair crops up in non-white populations, too.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:12
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I wonder if Guerilla had the same problems with Aloy that cropped up with Elizabeth and Ellie a few years ago. Publishers used to be really gun-shy about having a female protagonist in a prominent place on a game's cover and in the marketing.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:15
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Harrow posted:I don't think I ever saw that original design. Any idea where I can find it? I see. That mitigates it somewhat, but... it's still a white woman who is the face of this game, who represents this culture, in a game that derives heavily from such cultures. It feels extremely appropriative.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:18
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FAUXTON posted:She kind of reminded me of that one northerner lady from GoT, but with a way younger face. When my wife came home from work and saw me playing it, she immediately said "You know nothing, Jon Snow." So there's that. TFRazorsaw posted:This article has all this talk about how important this game is culturally and in the current political climate, and yet I can't help but think of how much more that would have resonated if instead of just leaning on indigenous cultures for inspiration, Aloy had been an actual woman of color. That would have been great but I can imagine all the people flipping out that you play a lady with no cheesecake doubly flipping out if she was mixed race like most of the other characters in the game. Because people are loving awful. Not saying they shouldn't have done it anyway. Mixed race goons repazent
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Mar 1, 2017 21:21
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They definitely should have done it anyway, given those people are already pissed off by this game's existence.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:25
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Wanderer posted:I wonder if Guerilla had the same problems with Aloy that cropped up with Elizabeth and Ellie a few years ago. Publishers used to be really gun-shy about having a female protagonist in a prominent place on a game's cover and in the marketing. Thankfully, developers and, maybe, publishers starting to veer away from listening to the audience that are bothered by that. TFRazorsaw posted:I see. That mitigates it somewhat, but... it's still a white woman who is the face of this game, who represents this culture, in a game that derives heavily from such cultures. It feels extremely appropriative. It's not really appropriation as it is fiction and not quite based off of any native cultures. If that isn't good enough, then know that appropriation is when an unrelated person starts dressing and showing off as said tribe despite not being part of it aka just about everything Native American used in US culture. Aloy is part of that particular tribe and so she dresses that way.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:26
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TFRazorsaw posted:I see. That mitigates it somewhat, but... it's still a white woman who is the face of this game, who represents this culture, in a game that derives heavily from such cultures. It feels extremely appropriative. In-game, the way that Aloy and her tribe dress comes across less as specifically invoking Native American cultures and more like they're just making their clothes and dwellings out of what's actually available (wood, leather, and scavenged metal and plastic from robots, specifically). Most of the ornamentation comes from the scavenged machine parts rather than things like bird feathers, and they make their arrowheads out of scrap metal from robots. That said, the Nora do hew a lot closer to that aesthetic because they don't smith metal and forbid their members to go into ruins, so they use natural non-metallic materials almost exclusively. There are other tribes in Horizon with a different aesthetic because they actually smith metal, unlike the Nora, so they have more of a medieval or Viking thing going on.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:27
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Making Aloy non-white could have made her status as an outcast look like a racial thing, potentially. That being said, that argument loses its weight given Rost being an outcast and how soon you meet non-outcasts who aren't white.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:28
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TFRazorsaw posted:I see. That mitigates it somewhat, but... it's still a white woman who is the face of this game, who represents this culture, in a game that derives heavily from such cultures. It feels extremely appropriative. I'm not getting how it's appropriating anything at all. None of the cultures in the game actually correlate much to any real world cultures (other than in basic ways like being hunter/gatherers or smiths or w/e), which is kind of the point. They're all weird Max Max-ian future stuff, except even more so because it's been a very long time since the apocalypse, with touches of other sci-fi. The Nora remind me in more than one way of the Futurama Amazons with some influence from the God's Gardeners in Margaret Atwood's Oryx and Crake series.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:29
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I'm talking about this is from an out of universe perspective, guys. The story can justify it in universe however they want, but visually and stylistically, they chose to have the face of this game be a white woman wearing the trappings of what, in our world, is associated with indigenous cultures. That's a conscious decision on their part. Works do not exist in a vacuum that are inherently justified by their own existence and narrative, they're part of a larger cultural context.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:31
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TFRazorsaw posted:I'm talking about this is from an out of universe perspective, guys. The story can justify it in universe however they want, but visually and stylistically, they chose to have the face of this game be a white woman wearing the trappings of what, in our world, is associated with indigenous cultures. That's a conscious decision on their part. Works do not exist in a vacuum that are inherently justified by their own existence and narrative, they're part of a larger cultural context. Or you can just not give a poo poo and play a fun game.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:33
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In what way does being critical of it take away from it being a fun game? Being fun and not doing something arguably unfortunate are not mutually exclusive concepts.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:34
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As a 1/64th indigenous first people's cyberbowmancer on my mother's side I find the whole thing very triggering.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:34
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There's been a collectible item I can't find early in the game, an Ancient Vessel near Devils Thirst. The waypoint markers show it being below me, like possibly underground. Is it below me, or just in the general circle area?
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Mar 1, 2017 21:35
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Harrow posted:I don't think I ever saw that original design. Any idea where I can find it? I swear there's a line in the dialogue identifying her as "the redhair" when she's finding out that Olin or his focus had been the one who spotted her and that she had been targeted to begin with so I'm assuming it's got some significance but there's absolutely no reason there couldn't have been a non-white main character beyond a check-signing suit likely saying they've pushed the envelope enough already. Which is a lovely reason, without qualification. Good if not great game on all other accounts though, and what ground it does break is cool and good, but she could have been that other brave-in-the-making she meets at the bunkhouse and it would detract nothing beyond needing the dialogue to point out another identifying feature assuming they kept that character's hair. The fact that they're already operating within about as race-blind a society as you can get only means that you could swap her out and lose absolutely nothing. Hell they already tread ever so lightly on gender role/identity soil with that Teb guy turning out to be a clothesmaker. Dude's just like "yeah turns out I'm better with a needle and thread NBD" and there isn't anyone going "BUT THATS A WOMAN'S JOB NYAAAAA" E: Dr. FAUXTON also finds the childhood sequence unsettling because of how Aloy runs. She's like "that kid is at least 6 and they're making her run like a toddler what the gently caress" so there's that. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Mar 1, 2017 |
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Mar 1, 2017 21:35
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TFRazorsaw posted:I'm talking about this is from an out of universe perspective, guys. The story can justify it in universe however they want, but visually and stylistically, they chose to have the face of this game be a white woman wearing the trappings of what, in our world, is associated with indigenous cultures. That's a conscious decision on their part. Works do not exist in a vacuum that are inherently justified by their own existence and narrative, they're part of a larger cultural context. I know, but what I'm trying to argue is that, in the context of the game, the way the Nora dress and the aesthetic of their dwellings is really the only way it could've been: it's all made of natural materials, because that's what they have, and looks how it does because that's how you'd have to make those structures, garments, and tools given those materials. They use leather, wood, and scavenged robot pieces, so it ends up coming across as a "green" Mad Max in a way more than a stand-in for any real culture. I'm not disagreeing with you about Aloy's race, for what it's worth, just that I don't think the aesthetic the game is using for the Nora is necessarily appropriative. FAUXTON posted:I swear there's a line in the dialogue identifying her as "the redhair" when she's finding out that Olin or his focus had been the one who spotted her and that she had been targeted to begin with so I'm assuming it's got some significance but there's absolutely no reason there couldn't have been a non-white main character beyond a check-signing suit likely saying they've pushed the envelope enough already. Which is a lovely reason, without qualification. Yeah, that's the line I'm referring to. Aloy's red hair is important, but the thing is, even in real life, non-white people are sometimes born with red hair, too. I don't think they made her white specifically because they wanted her to have red hair, though.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:38
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Mar 1, 2017 21:40
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That's how I felt about the first five pages of this thread.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:43
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Also that article someone linked earlier really needs a proofreader.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:44
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Harrow posted:I know, but what I'm trying to argue is that, in the context of the game, the way the Nora dress and the aesthetic of their dwellings is really the only way it could've been: it's all made of natural materials, because that's what they have, and looks how it does because that's how you'd have to make those structures, garments, and tools given those materials. They use leather, wood, and scavenged robot pieces, so it ends up coming across as a "green" Mad Max in a way more than a stand-in for any real culture. The survivor outfit is a little close to the line but it's not terribly egregious. Also  on the red hair being not just for white people, it's just seeming like her luxurious mane is an identifying feature that can be swapped out in full if they wanted to just swap out the character resource packages instead of making a new model from scratch with red hair.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:45
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I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree there, Harrow. But... that's no big deal, given we're on the same page in a broader sense. No use haggling over something like that. Don't get me wrong, guys. I'm not saying the game shouldn't be played, or that you're wrong for liking it, or that this is some horrible crime that's being perpetrated against indigenous people. I'm just saying that for all the praise it's getting, this is a bit unfortunate, and makes whatever progressive qualities the game has feel like a half measure. There are some "y i k e s" aspects to it, but that's not saying the game doesn't have value. I was down on it for several reasons before, but I've come around to acknowledge some of its merits. It just could have done a lot more, and done so easily. As it is Aloy is a bit of a "Tom Cruise in The Last Samurai" type character.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:45
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For what it's worth, having only brown people wearing first nation-style clothing also would have been tokenizing, which is in my opinion worse than some light cultural appropriation. It's not like Aloy is wearing some cheesy feather dress and dancing around a camp fire singing in Cherokee or something. That said, I get your point.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:46
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It was only a matter of time Ol Cactus Dick posted:You wouldn't happen to know what hud option is it would you? There's two options for waypoints and both are annoying. One is called waypoint markers or something, and will give you way too many distracting markers for waypoints you set on the map. The other is called quest markers and if you turn that one off you'll still have the marker on your compass without the annoying floating markers.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:46
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Traxis posted:Loving the game so far, but there are a few things that bug me. One, I wish mounts were a little more permanent and could be called no matter how far you wander from them. Two, I don't understand why they made fast travel require a resource. If they want to encourage people to travel on foot and take in the scenery/explore I can understand that, but the resource is so easy to acquire they might as well have just made it free. And lastly it would be nice if you didn't have to select the weapon tutorials as an active quest for kills to count towards the quest. There is a perk on the tree that unlocks unlimited mounts. So you can call one even if you haven't tamed one recently. There is also a golden track pack that allows unlimited travel. You just need to get the resources and find a vendor that sells the pack, and you need to get enough unlock the mount.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:47
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Don't be an idiot like me and sell your lenses and hearts and stuff, you need them to trade for better quality items 
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Mar 1, 2017 21:48
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Sakurazuka posted:Don't be an idiot like me and sell your lenses and hearts and stuff, you need them to trade for better quality items Yeah I sold a few and then noticed they were also good for trading. So now I just make an effort to kill more robosauruses.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:50
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TFRazorsaw posted:I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree there, Harrow. But... that's no big deal, given we're on the same page in a broader sense. No use haggling over something like that. Your criticism is really thin though. It amounts to "they could have done more" which is true but not actually very meaningful. There is no game on the planet that couldn't do more with being progressive including games heralded as progressive or forward-thinking. There are plenty of GLBT-friendly games with a white-as-poo poo cast for example. Criticism of "but they should be doing more" rarely rings true because you're pushing negatives. I've made it no secret I don't think too highly of Horizon's plot so this isn't me defending it because I think it's great. It's pointing out that you haven't actually done anything besides go "it isn't good enough" which, true or not, isn't actually doing anything but pushing negativity onto something genuinely trying not because it fails but because it isn't far enough for you.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:50
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bloodychill posted:For what it's worth, having only brown people wearing first nation-style clothing also would have been tokenizing, which is in my opinion worse than some light cultural appropriation. It's not like Aloy is wearing some cheesy feather dress and dancing around a camp fire singing in Cherokee or something. That said, I get your point. I don't think she should have been a parody or a stereotype either. But I don't think making her a person of color in a game that culturally blends various indigenous cultures would have been "token", either. Either way, I've said my piece. I'll set this aside if people have gotten tired of it. EDIT: ImpAtom posted:Your criticism is really thin though. It amounts to "they could have done more" which is true but not actually very meaningful. There is no game on the planet that couldn't do more with being progressive including games heralded as progressive or forward-thinking. There are plenty of GLBT-friendly games with a white-as-poo poo cast for example. Criticism of "but they should be doing more" rarely rings true because you're pushing negatives. I've made it no secret I don't think too highly of Horizon's plot so this isn't me defending it because I think it's great. It's pointing out that you haven't actually done anything besides go "it isn't good enough" which, true or not, isn't actually doing anything but pushing negativity onto something genuinely trying not because it fails but because it isn't far enough for you. I... I'm not sure what you're saying here. They could have easily done this. They had, at one point, presented the possibility of doing better with it based on the concept art. For whatever reason they walked that back. This is true whether or not the game has other virtues. They made a conscious decision to use a white female lead when they'd considered otherwise. That's worth some criticism, I think. This isn't some "this could have been Frozen" case where people are going "okay, but they could have put in a POC instead of a white person", in this case they DID consider that and presented the possibility, crafted an entire world based on this concept, and yet for whatever reason chose to not do so. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Mar 1, 2017 |
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Mar 1, 2017 21:51
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bloodychill posted:For what it's worth, having only brown people wearing first nation-style clothing also would have been tokenizing, which is in my opinion worse than some light cultural appropriation. It's not like Aloy is wearing some cheesy feather dress and dancing around a camp fire singing in Cherokee or something. That said, I get your point. I think what TFRazorsaw is saying isn't necessarily that none of the Nora should be white, but that Aloy specifically, as the game's face, should have been a woman of color. All of the tribes in Horizon are racially diverse (which is also an important plot point) so it ends up standing out more that Aloy is white. I'm not sure at what stage of development they decided on Aloy's race, but I guess that would give us a clue as to why this was the choice they made.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:51
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TFRazorsaw posted:I'm talking about this is from an out of universe perspective, guys. The story can justify it in universe however they want, but visually and stylistically, they chose to have the face of this game be a white woman wearing the trappings of what, in our world, is associated with indigenous cultures. That's a conscious decision on their part. Works do not exist in a vacuum that are inherently justified by their own existence and narrative, they're part of a larger cultural context. Your argument's sound, but I don't think it applies here. The multicultural archers of the robot-hell post-apocalypse aren't deliberately patterned after any aboriginal culture that I'm aware of, so a charge of appropriation seems like it's jumping the gun, especially when you consider that the designers are from the Netherlands. I suppose there's no way for it to avoid running into a bunch of the old Western tropes, since you're a lone tribeswoman traveling the wilderness and fighting "wildlife" with a bow and spear, but the science-fiction trappings seem to elevate it beyond that. This isn't meant as a dig against you, of course, but there is such a thing as mistaking your own free association for a line of critical inquiry.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:52
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Soothing Vapors posted:There's two options for waypoints and both are annoying. One is called waypoint markers or something, and will give you way too many distracting markers for waypoints you set on the map. The other is called quest markers and if you turn that one off you'll still have the marker on your compass without the annoying floating markers. Thanks, now I'm getting outta here before this thread becomes gamefaqs in the opposite direction.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:53
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Ol Cactus Dick posted:Thanks, now I'm getting outta here before this thread becomes gamefaqs in the opposite direction. Right now, the opposite direction of GameFAQs would be criticizing the game for its lack of ability to enslave men and press them into service as brutes, miners, or sperm manufacturers.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:57
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