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There's really nothing wrong with Avellone's writing in isolation. It's a matter both of writing to the medium and writing to the median: if you have a story that is 2/3rds light comedy and then introduce a character whose characterization is serious, gut-wrenching drama, they're going to grab your attention like a bad set of curtains and feel completely out of place.
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Mar 14, 2017 05:44
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I am a paladin with a two-handed Great Sword. I just took the Knight talent when I reached level 2. Does this count with Great Swords, or should I have taken something for Two Handed?
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Mar 14, 2017 08:03
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The knight, adventurer etc talents give you accuracy with the listed weapons. There are also separate weapon style talents which give a bonus when fighting with a two hander, a shield, when dual wielding and so on. For great swords in particular you should have taken weapon focus soldier instead of knight, though you can respec at any inn so its not a big deal.
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Mar 14, 2017 09:30
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So there's no penalty to respec? Is that the same option as when I am with a merchant and it says Retrain Character?
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Mar 14, 2017 09:32
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Yea thats it, and no penalty, just some gold.
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Mar 14, 2017 09:36
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Ravenfood posted:Cipher is probably the closest to a "canon" class, but any of them work. I'd have said that before White March 2 it felt like the game wanted the PC to be a Barbarian. And before WM1 a Barbarian, Rogue or Monk. Just because they were left out otherwise.
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Mar 14, 2017 12:49
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Digital Osmosis posted:Hey Rope Kid, I'm playing a priest of Eothas to have an interesting perspective in PoE2. Would Eothas prefer I be all hush-hush about the secrets of the gods, or does he want me to tear that poo poo down? Priest of Eothas is a great class to play, I loved the special dialogues you get. Also, his forms believe in "reaping what is sown, leading to death and eventual rebirth", of casting light and banishing shadows bringing an end to the night, so I'm gonna go with hell yeah he wants you to tear that poo poo down. I quote: "If thou doest thy work in the dark, if thou wouldst keep thine actions hidden, thou shalt be burned in the sun of the new dawn."
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Mar 14, 2017 13:26
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Like I'm not gonna rag on Avellone or call him a bad writer or whatever, but I question how people think he's perfect. Nothing's perfect. And in his case, he absolutely gets samey - and real fuckin' preachy. Like, Lonesome Road was just loving awful. After all the myths and everything built up around Ulysses, it was incredibly difficult to find an opinion he had that wasn't in the end just an echo of Chris Avellone's thoughts. Yes, we get it, you hate that Fallout broadly moved to a post-post-apocalyptic setting, none of that is actually original though! For all the words he desperately tried to spew out to justify things, it was just two penny nihilism. It was loving high school. Grieving Mother stands out, and not in any sort of good way. She's so goddamn special. She doesn't interact with anyone or anything. She's completely insular. She is, in effect, an NPC who was not written to be an NPC. GM feels like someone made their own PC and got cranky they weren't the actual PC. And like, when you look at how she was intended to turn out, she would've in fact been even WORSE. Durance's intended expansion was likewise loving awful. Like, GM is already way over the top in how ~*~important~*~ and ~*~symbolic~*~ and all that poo poo she is. Now you want to give her a private special dungeon experience of exploring her psyche and ugh just gently caress off. Durance at least mostly fits the game, but if the other NPCs didn't constantly give him poo poo, he would've been too insufferable to manage. He still has some issues, but thankfully most of his narrative ones were cut, it would seem. Grieving Mother didn't make me really start to feel for how bad the Hollowborn tragedy is - Derrin did. She just annoyed the poo poo out of me when she deigned to interact with the game she was in. As for his other games? Kreia is Avellone hating Star Wars. She's also pretty goddamn Ravel, because Avellone reuses ideas constantly. Samey and preachy. And she's also kinda great, don't get me wrong, I love Kreia as a character, but I would've loved her more if I hadn't played Planescape: Torment, and I would've loved her more if I had never read a single interview and realized that she's treated like little more then a mouthpiece at times. I don't think Avellone is a bad writer. I think people need to stop calling him a brilliant one though. Not everything has to be a goddamn philosophy thesis.
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Mar 14, 2017 13:58
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For some reason you omitted that Kreia and Ulysses are villains whom the player defeats, even though I'd think that's important context for them "preaching" at you.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:11
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Kreia's weird 'alien' rants are totally out of place in Star Wars though. There's a bizarre human supremacy current through that whole game which is kinda uncomfortable now that I replay it. Which sucks because it was one of my favorite games. Like "I can't read the alien's mind" doesn't even make sense considering; 1) There are a ton of non-human Jedi and force sensitives in Star Wars 2) He's one of them Like, what the hell. Zore fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 14:14
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Zore posted:Kreia's weird 'alien' rants are totally out of place in Star Wars though. Human supremacy is in no way out of place in star wars, that was like... a core principle of the Empire.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:16
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Zore posted:Kreia's weird 'alien' rants are totally out of place in Star Wars though. Where does that snippet come up specifically? I can't recall
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Mar 14, 2017 14:22
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GlyphGryph posted:Human supremacy is in no way out of place in star wars, that was like... a core principle of the Empire. Yeah, but it was never a thing with the force before KotOR II. Kreia can't read non-human minds and acts like being able to is insane and out of the question which is ridiculous. Like she was a goddamn Jedi Master alongside non-humans at one point. Captain Oblivious posted:Where does that snippet come up specifically? I can't recall One of her ship trainings. She's having you listen through the force through everyones surface memories and is like 'can't read droids or aliens 'and is super shocked when you can hear Bao-Dur's thoughts. Because you're a psychic leech. Like the way the game presents it, the only reason you can is because of your status as a wound in the force and normal human Jedi can't which is just 
Zore fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 14:22
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Zore posted:Yeah, but it was never a thing with the force before KotOR II. Kreia can't read non-human minds and acts like being able to is insane and out of the question which is ridiculous. I'm not sure you're reading it right. She reads alien minds multiple times in the game. It's how she played Hanharr like a fiddle. Seems more likely that "the alien" part of the sentence is meant to indicate her xenophobic views, not that them being an alien is why she can't read their mind.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:27
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Captain Oblivious posted:I'm not sure you're reading it right. She reads alien minds multiple times in the game. It's how she played Hanharr like a fiddle. Seems more likely that "the alien" part of the sentence is meant to indicate her xenophobic views, not that them being an alien is why she can't read their mind. Here's the scene in question https://youtu.be/Cb8gXJwdGjM And yeah, it feels tonally out of place with even her actions elsewhere which is why it sticks out to me after all this time. 
Zore fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 14:30
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Zore posted:Here's the scene in question Yeah that scene reads to me like it's supposed to tell you more about Kreia than the Force. The part in question that is. She has a broad point in that, for example, reading the surface thoughts of a native German speaker as someone who doesn't speak German would be rough but the rest just sounds like character flaws being displayed.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:38
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She says "the alien that served with you" meaning Bao-Dur specifically has weird thoughts that are harder to read- "his thoughts are black". In terms of Star Wars lore, the Handmaiden is an Echani and Visas is a Miraluka, neither of which is human, but she can read their thoughts just fine. E: I mean I'm not specifically arguing against the notion that Chris Avellone is racist against fictional pretend aliens, I just don't think tha6t was what was going on in that scene. 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 14:39
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Personally, I don't care about things like themes or symbolism or what the author was trying to say, its more about if the character or story is enjoyable if taken at face value and just read as written, if that makes sense? Those things probably do work on a subconcious level though so not to dismiss their value entirely - but like explaining how grieving mother actually ties into the games themes and how she's a reflection of whatever still would not make her "fun", though the fun thing here will naturally be subjective. Or like how the traps in dead money were supposed to make the player feel frustrated does not make me appreciate them any more. I liked both Kreia and Ravel, didn't care for Ulysees.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:40
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Zore posted:Here's the scene in question Why does she repeat that phrase twice, haha, that part needed some editing I guess. Also, she specifically refers to him as "that alien" and "a primitive mind" so I think she considers him a special case rather than talking about not being able to read alien thoughts in general.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:57
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Since we now know that pistols can now be used in melee combat, which is awesome and pretty accurate since many flintlock pistol were designed to be used as clubs after they were fired, I wonder if we'll see a couple ques taken from Tyranny and have javelins added to the game.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:16
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ProfessorCirno posted:Like I'm not gonna rag on Avellone or call him a bad writer or whatever, but I question how people think he's perfect. Nothing's perfect. And in his case, he absolutely gets samey - and real fuckin' preachy. Lotta whining in this post. Zore posted:Kreia's weird 'alien' rants are totally out of place in Star Wars though. There's no human supremacy in KOTOR2, what the heck. If you treat Kreia as an authority figure on Star Wars then you kinda failed her final lesson and by extension the whole game.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:21
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Lt. Danger posted:Lotta whining in this post. He isn't wrong though, the Avellone fetishism is a bit much at times.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:22
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No, it's wrong and weird. What the gently caress is thisquote:She is, in effect, an NPC who was not written to be an NPC. GM feels like someone made their own PC and got cranky they weren't the actual PC. This is nonsense. We are "expressing displeasure", not analysing or critiquing. The discrepancy in Pillars' writing (which includes but isn't limtied to Durance and Grieving Mother vs the rest of the cast) is down to issues with drafting and editing, which stem from the way Pillars was produced and managed as a project and Obsidian's financial position at the time.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:29
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Zore posted:Yeah, but it was never a thing with the force before KotOR II. Kreia can't read non-human minds and acts like being able to is insane and out of the question which is ridiculous. KotOR2 makes a lot more sense once you realise that Kreia is actually really bad at the thing she claims to be good at.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:38
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Total agreement with Lt. Danger, PoE needed a second draft.GlyphGryph posted:Priest of Eothas is a great class to play, I loved the special dialogues you get. I have seen depressingly few special dialogues; I'm about midway through Act 2 right now. I think it only popped off once at the end of the temple of Eothas quest where you can deal with the "priest" quest-giver by basically being like "nah it's cool Eothas is all about redemption dude, don't worry about it." Nothing came up in talking with Eder OR Durance. Which is weird. He brags to your face about killing your god and you're all like "so how many of you built this bomb?" and "who was waidwen again?" Do you remember any more times they show up?
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Mar 14, 2017 15:41
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Samuel Clemens posted:KotOR2 makes a lot more sense once you realise that Kreia is actually really bad at the thing she claims to be good at. That's part of it. Another part of it is that she's very much a product of her culture (Echani) more so than she realizes.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:41
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chris avellone is against companion romances so I'm glad his reign of asexuality has come to an end @ obsidian 2017
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Mar 14, 2017 15:43
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He said around the launch of the game that since people like romances they should have done them. I don't know if he was advocating for them behind the scenes, but then again his two characters are about the least romanceable people possible.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:49
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And yet both torment and kotor 2 had romances.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:51
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mitochondritom posted:He isn't wrong though, the Avellone fetishism is a bit much at times. Imho avellone did a brilliant job with planescape:torment, especially considering how groundbreaking it was. Like Raymond Chandler said of Dashiell Hammett' _Maltese Falcon_, once there was [a video game] that good and well written, it was impossible to argue that there couldn't be one that was even better. He broke a path. Sure he retreads some ground and his writing gets overblown sometimes. He's very high concept.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:54
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I agree, I think PST is amazing and a huge achievement by Chris Avellone and the other members of the team who made it. In fact the recent "spiritual successor" shows (at least to me) that you cannot replicate something like that just on a whim. He is obviously talented, but I guess I am trying to say that he isn't the only talent around. I loved Old World Blues, I hated Ulysses. I liked Kreia, but didn't like the Grieving Mother. To my tastes his characters can be a bit hit or miss. I did really enjoy the "Waal" novella he wrote for Pillars though. It made me want to read a full on Avellone novel, though not necessarily set in any "game" universe.
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Mar 14, 2017 16:00
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Sure he retreads some ground and his writing gets overblown sometimes. He's very high concept. Avellone's writing strikes me as the opposite of high-concept. I don't know how he even managed to pitch Planescape: Torment.
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Mar 14, 2017 16:01
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Samuel Clemens posted:Avellone's writing strikes me as the opposite of high-concept. I don't know how he even managed to pitch Planescape: Torment. Oh gently caress if you haven't read the actual pitch you need to. It is AMAZING. It can be found here. Anyways PST was amazing, no doubt about it. It was also made almost 20 years ago.
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Mar 14, 2017 16:05
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Avalerion posted:And yet both torment and kotor 2 had romances. this is a chris avellone plot to trick u into thinking he cares about romance. i bet he hasn't even studied the classics like harem anime
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Mar 14, 2017 16:06
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The pitch is amazing, I cannot believe that they managed to get the go ahead with it. Just shows how insane the 90's must have been. Can you imagine someone leaking that pitch today with quotes like this in it:Torment posted:“Oooooh.
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Mar 14, 2017 16:08
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Digital Osmosis posted:Hey Rope Kid, I'm playing a priest of Eothas to have an interesting perspective in PoE2. Would Eothas prefer I be all hush-hush about the secrets of the gods, or does he want me to tear that poo poo down? Gonna go out on a limb here and say that he's going to use the Luminous Adra (very different from lustrous) to kill em all, and everything else on Eora.
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Mar 14, 2017 16:09
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Digital Osmosis posted:I have seen depressingly few special dialogues; I'm about midway through Act 2 right now. I think it only popped off once at the end of the temple of Eothas quest where you can deal with the "priest" quest-giver by basically being like "nah it's cool Eothas is all about redemption dude, don't worry about it." Nothing came up in talking with Eder OR Durance. Which is weird. He brags to your face about killing your god and you're all like "so how many of you built this bomb?" and "who was waidwen again?" Do you remember any more times they show up? I could have sworn there was at least one unique dialogue/path for Eder and Durance, and remember more, so that seems weird - I'm not sure if they were pickable options so much as slightly different dialogue, if that makes sense? There's also one with the candles at the end of the temple. But yeah unfortunately there are very few of them, I just liked the ones I saw. (and there are very few for anything) GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 16:10
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quote:THE GAME IS THE CHARACTER GENERATOR Man that would have been nice.
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Mar 14, 2017 16:14
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Iirc Eothas doesn't have a ton of special dialogue options and it feels bit a weird to play a PC as one given that. Might still be worth it to import though as I imagine Ropekid will put in a decent chunk of those in Poe2.
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Mar 14, 2017 16:18
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If you turn the option on to show you where unmet dialogue qualifications are you'll see a lot Eothasian Priest in Durance's chats so idk what to tell you.
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Mar 14, 2017 16:22
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