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I mean, I'll probably never do Android development again. But I can articulate, at length, the reasons I wont, for about an hour or two.
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Apr 14, 2017 03:32
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:You're going to have to clarify and justify this better because this is exactly the kind of red flag that will turn a 'strong hire' into a 'no hire' in my eyes. Would you react similarly if a candidate expressed a strong distaste of doing embedded programming? Or databases? Or some other domain-specific type of development? There are plenty of software jobs out there that don't come anywhere near the browser. Why should a refusal to do web dev make someone a no-hire?
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Apr 14, 2017 03:33
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ratbert90 posted:If you are doing front-end work, you always ALWAYS ALWAYS should have a living PSD with approved changes in it. At the hellhole that current signs my paychecks the designers are given 40 hours every project no matter what the project is to put together designs. They will stop at exactly 40 and whatever they don't finish becomes the developers responsibility to "design". A living PSD sounds like something from another planet. Interview tomorrow 
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Apr 14, 2017 04:59
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Iverron posted:At the hellhole that current signs my paychecks the designers are given 40 hours every project no matter what the project is to put together designs. They will stop at exactly 40 and whatever they don't finish becomes the developers responsibility to "design". A living PSD sounds like something from another planet. I would have done just what was in the PSD and called it good. FlapYoJacks fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Apr 14, 2017 |
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Apr 14, 2017 05:12
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:There are plenty of software jobs out there that don't come anywhere near the browser. Why should a refusal to do web dev make someone a no-hire? Pollyanna is a web dev. A web dev that refuses to do front-end programming is not the same as a game programmer that refuses to switch jobs to embedded.
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Apr 14, 2017 05:35
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Would you react similarly if a candidate expressed a strong distaste of doing embedded programming? Or databases? Or some other domain-specific type of development? It's not the refusal per se, it's the categorical statement with zero context.
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Apr 14, 2017 06:31
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redleader posted:You're in luck! Nowadays, you can do mobile development with the same technologies that you'd use for webdev! I will loving murder you. e: The people who decided "Hey, why not write your server code in JavaScript too???" need to die a long, slow, painful death. ES6 makes JS less horrible but in as lovely a way as possible, leaving all the original horrible poo poo there and then adding poo poo on the side saying "Hey, you can maybe do some less horrible poo poo if you use this stuff. Also, adding real support for properties and static typing when we added classes was hella hard, so we just didn't, lolz." e2: End-game for development is we're all writing PHP code and databases will stop supporting anything more complicated than SELECT * FROM <table> because you can process all that poo poo in your PHP code anyway and PHP developers all do it that way regardless so why even bother. RandomBlue fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Apr 14, 2017 |
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Apr 14, 2017 06:37
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Achmed Jones posted:Pollyanna is a web dev. A web dev that refuses to do front-end programming is not the same as a game programmer that refuses to switch jobs to embedded. There are generally two distinct parts to webdev, sometimes more.
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Apr 14, 2017 06:39
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RandomBlue posted:e2: End-game for development is we're all writing PHP code and databases will stop supporting anything more complicated than SELECT * FROM <table> because you can process all that poo poo in your PHP code anyway and PHP developers all do it that way regardless so why even bother. Nah. Endgame for development is we define our services declaratively, generate as much of our data model, server, clients, and hell, UI, as possible, and then make our money continually fine-tuning it.
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Apr 14, 2017 07:40
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Nah. Endgame for development is we define our services declaratively, generate as much of our data model, server, clients, and hell, UI, as possible, and then make our money continually fine-tuning it. Nope. Sorry, AI both writes and consumes all content and we're all just batteries.
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Apr 14, 2017 07:56
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RandomBlue posted:e: The people who decided "Hey, why not write your server code in JavaScript too???" As I see more and more of the engineering field, I feel like so many decisions for new tech are based 75% on the ability to monetize a new technology and 25% to increase productivity.
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Apr 14, 2017 14:31
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:You're going to have to clarify and justify this better because this is exactly the kind of red flag that will turn a 'strong hire' into a 'no hire' in my eyes. If the job you're hiring for is frontend he will already have 'no be hired by' you in any case and you won't be interviewing him, so I don't see the problem. He doesn't owe you or anyone else anything.
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Apr 14, 2017 15:46
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Achmed Jones posted:Pollyanna is a web dev. A web dev that refuses to do front-end programming is not the same as a game programmer that refuses to switch jobs to embedded. Pollyanna is a dev whose limited experience so far has only been in web dev. With only 2-3 years' experience, that does not remotely pigeonhole them into only being able to do web dev for the rest of their career. In fact this is exactly the time to be making this kind of "nope, this isn't what I want to do with my life, time to find a new niche" decision.
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Apr 14, 2017 15:47
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:You're going to have to clarify and justify this better because this is exactly the kind of red flag that will turn a 'strong hire' into a 'no hire' in my eyes. Seems like a perfectly reasonable opinion to me.
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Apr 14, 2017 16:11
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Pollyanna is a dev whose limited experience so far has only been in web dev. With only 2-3 years' experience, that does not remotely pigeonhole them into only being able to do web dev for the rest of their career. In fact this is exactly the time to be making this kind of "nope, this isn't what I want to do with my life, time to find a new niche" decision. Does any amount of experience totally pigeonhole somebody forever, though? I can definitely see somebody doing something for like 20 years then going "gently caress this, I'm bored" then pursuing something else for the change. Granted a problem with trying to get away from web dev is that it seems like pretty much everything involves the intertubes in some way or another these days.
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Apr 14, 2017 17:07
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It can be reasonable, if the reasoning is there. A previous coworker of mine hated C++ with a passion and could never articulate why. It was persistently irritating to work with someone who is anti-some tech without them ever justifying their opinion. I'm challenging Pollyanna to explain because someone's going to sooner or later. It might be during an interview, and having a clear answer ready to go is in her best interest.
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Apr 14, 2017 17:11
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Does any amount of experience totally pigeonhole somebody forever, though? I can definitely see somebody doing something for like 20 years then going "gently caress this, I'm bored" then pursuing something else for the change. It gets harder to get non-in-role jobs though. If you have 20 years' worth of backend/DB experience and you try to get a job doing mobile dev, say, recruiters are going to look at your resume and think "This candidate doesn't have a relevant-enough skillset to be a senior dev, and their experience level means they're going to want a much higher salary than a junior dev job would pay, so I don't see a place for them here." Horizontal in-org transfers, or doing contracting or other work where you can obfuscate your specific skills to some extent, can help with this. It's the same kind of problem as actors that get typecast -- they don't never get to "play against type", but it's noteworthy precisely because it's rare.
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Apr 14, 2017 17:14
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:You're going to have to clarify and justify this better because this is exactly the kind of red flag that will turn a 'strong hire' into a 'no hire' in my eyes. Is there any justification necessary beyond "I've tried it and I don't like it"?
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Apr 14, 2017 17:42
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With one never and three evers? Yes. Operating temporarily out of one's comfort zone is something I would expect from a good developer. Writing off something so strongly is prompting a discussion on what if anything can move that preference if it's needed.
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Apr 14, 2017 18:12
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:It gets harder to get non-in-role jobs though. If you have 20 years' worth of backend/DB experience and you try to get a job doing mobile dev, say, recruiters are going to look at your resume and think "This candidate doesn't have a relevant-enough skillset to be a senior dev, and their experience level means they're going to want a much higher salary than a junior dev job would pay, so I don't see a place for them here." Horizontal in-org transfers, or doing contracting or other work where you can obfuscate your specific skills to some extent, can help with this. But in that case is it possible for the person to go "yeah I know I'd be way down on the ladder but I'm totally OK with that. Make me junior again?" It isn't relevant at all to my situation I'm just curious. I'm a web dev myself right now and really don't see myself doing this as my whole job for multiple decades. It's not too bad it just isn't really what I'd prefer to be doing. ultrafilter posted:Is there any justification necessary beyond "I've tried it and I don't like it"? Theoretically no but you'll always have people that want you to specifically articulate it. It's also very useful to understand why so you don't get stuck/don't put somebody in a similar place. If the reason is, say, "I despise JavaScript with every fiber of my being" then you don't want to put that person on the back end writing stuff for Node.
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Apr 14, 2017 18:33
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I've never regretted my decision to do my utmost best to never touch front-end web dev again, and it's never been even remotely an issue because I just stopped applying to jobs that could plausibly involve front-end web dev.
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Apr 14, 2017 18:47
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Plorkyeran posted:I've never regretted my decision to do my utmost best to never touch front-end web dev again, and it's never been even remotely an issue because I just stopped applying to jobs that could plausibly involve front-end web dev. Same story here. Even though it seems like everyone's looking for ~full stack devs~ there are plenty of opportunities for people who only want to do backend or (gasp) people who don't want to get involved with web dev at all. ToxicSlurpee posted:But in that case is it possible for the person to go "yeah I know I'd be way down on the ladder but I'm totally OK with that. Make me junior again?" It isn't relevant at all to my situation I'm just curious. Yes it's definitely possible! That's basically what I did with my last position. It is also possible that the person would be viewed with some amount of skepticism when they say that. The typical mindset in a lot of companies is still Always Be Getting Promoted and some recruiters (and sadly some hiring managers) just can't comprehend that a person might be okay taking a step "backwards" in order to do something different.
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Apr 14, 2017 19:05
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Without rambling and complaining about my job and current career progression, I'd really like some advice for how to get involved in open source or how to find something I can put on my profile to show that I've grown. Work isn't going to cut it for now, but I'm not mentally ready to conduct another job search. I'm really interested in strictly back-end. Language, ecosystem, nothing really matters.. I'd just like a cool project I can devote a few hours to a week where I get feedback on my work and learn.
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Apr 14, 2017 19:10
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ultrafilter posted:Is there any justification necessary beyond "I've tried it and I don't like it"? This is such a weird phrasing. Nobody has to give you a job, they won't kick you out of the room for poor reasoning, but a situation like this is an amazing chance to shine. This answer doesn't. "I tried it and I didn't like the semicolons" vs. "I've tried it, but the balance of user expectations and working against strict API backends isn't a good fit for where I want my career to grow." You can blow off a discipline in a way that doesn't insult the practitioners, express sympathy for the concerns of that domain that you personally don't want to spend time and effort on, and prove your own introspection about it. Most of the time you're not jumping from unrelated disciplines, there's a good chance you'll be working with someone from the old type of work. Expressing that your experience in their shoes will make you more empathetic to their concerns instead of lobbing garbage over the wall and pretending it's their problem makes you a better candidate. Trashing a discipline because it's not your cup of tea doesn't.
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Apr 14, 2017 19:27
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ultrafilter posted:Is there any justification necessary beyond "I've tried it and I don't like it"? I think the problem is the things Polyanna is really upset with is not "front end dev", but the poo poo architect/team that made the pile of garbage that is the front end app she is stuck on. Could easily have been a backend or embedded dumpster fire. If she can better articulate what her problem with front end is, more likely to understand the true problem and then better able to avoid it in the future.
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Apr 14, 2017 19:28
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Without rambling and complaining about my job and current career progression, I'd really like some advice for how to get involved in open source or how to find something I can put on my profile to show that I've grown. Work isn't going to cut it for now, but I'm not mentally ready to conduct another job search. I'm really interested in strictly back-end. Language, ecosystem, nothing really matters.. I'd just like a cool project I can devote a few hours to a week where I get feedback on my work and learn.
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Apr 14, 2017 21:12
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Career advice/politics advice needed. (warning: ranty and long) I'm on a 4 dev team that produces POCs (read: vaporware). Our development is driven by fleeting demo opportunities our boss gains. (removed the rest of this, I can probably be identified from it) There are three other developers, one of which is team lead. He works remotely 99% of the time while being unresponsive to inquiries/discussion. My boss frequently sends passive aggressive e-mails to the team about being in the office, to no effect. I think working remotely is preferable, but it's pointless if your average response time to a casual Slack message is 8-24 hours. My boss complains about him to me, which puts me in an awkward position, but I just laugh it off, as I have no interest in NARCing out fellow laborers. The real disappointment here is that he knows his poo poo, and I was excited to learn from him after we chatted during our interview after the grilling. It feels like a bait and switch, but I think my boss is to blame, and I am the one that loses. My boss favors me because he thinks I am well spoken and am not the "average developer that hides in a corner closing tickets". Thus, my boss leans on me heavily to meet with stakeholders, extract requirements, form stories, delegate tasks, and do most of the heavy lifting in regards to features and core functionality. These responsibilities weren't suddenly hoisted upon me - the team was so dysfunctional early on that I routinely pointed out how lovely the processes were / lack of processes were and began trying to establish sane procedures. The others may have little on their plate, and my work load is max capacity, but when more work comes down the pipeline, I'm the pointman. If our team needs to be represented somewhere, my boss flies me out (the others remain comfortable at home). I have to demo to technical and non-technical internal and external stake holders and prospective audiences. I have to read up on our strategy, the audience's strategy, and tie the value of our POC to their need we are trying to secure a contract to solve. The interesting part of the work, the actual development of the solution, gets off-shored to an execution team, and we are minimally involved beyond ink to paper. When I try to give any pushback, my boss becomes passive aggressive and vaguely threatening about how my goals need to align with his and my skip level's. This happened specifically when I questioned the value in flying out to an internal sales meeting to run a demo booth with completely static visualizations that show "what is possible in the future". I said this won't possibly increase our revenue and is a waste of my time otherwise. Fly some business strategist out, or better yet, fly no one out. He conceded and sent out someone else, but for at least a month afterward he referred to my "lack of enthusiasm" and asked if everything was going okay with me, as I seemed to "have my nose buried in development", and didn't have as positive a demeanor. A couple of weeks later, I had a sudden death in the family on a Thursday night, and I e-mailed in saying that I would miss part of next week due to attending the funeral and grief. My boss initially told me to take as much time as needed - then on Sunday night, text messaged me about the pressures of an upcoming project, and that he needed me as soon as possible, but he didn't want to impose upon me, but also there is a lot of pressure and a lot of eyeballs on this project. So I returned on Tuesday. The next week, I was walking through the hallway and passed him, and he suddenly blurted out "Don't be TOO enthusiastic now!", because I wasn't walking around with a plastic smile fixed to my face. This isn't what I wanted when I joined this team, and I'm not sure how this can be fixed without leaving. This may be my fault in not giving enough pushback early enough, or in not asking the right questions during the interview. I don't know! I was sold on this job as an opportunity to work on " innovative" "greenfield applications" (your alarms are probably going off if you're more experienced than I was a year ago). The dilemma began early on, when I identified the team's greatest need being compelling data visualizations. After my first couple of demos, my boss was impressed with my work, and it helped us secure revenue and began driving our teams flywheel. My responsibility after this initial success has dramatically snowballed, and my reward includes expectations in delegating, attending meetings, demoing, high pressure. I am basically experiencing the slowly boiled frog dilemma, featuring quasi de facto manager duties and team lead duties not reflected in authority or pay, and I am also way too inexperienced to be doing this poo poo. To top it off, I regularly receive high praises in informal 1x1 reviews. But I have not and will not receive a formal review that is shared with me, and my merit raise this year was 2% with little explanation. There is no incentive for me to be performing at this level. And if I ask for a title change and/or pay increase to reflect my duties, I will be driven even further into a world of which I want no part, and will be doing less development and more flying. I want to avoid experiencing this situation again. Something similar happened in my first job - after a few months, the team lead leaned more and more heavily on me and ended up deferring to me, creating a situation in which I was the least experienced on the team but was essentially the de facto team lead, having way too much visibility and impact for someone not very confident in their skills and whose main goal is to learn. The mistake I made when accepting my current job was that I was desperate to leave the first job - I was underpaid, and ended up doubling my salary when I accepted my current position. I can be a bit more discerning now as the financial incentive to switch is low. However, the urge to escape is high - I desperately want out. My career goals are exclusively focused on being a developer. I do not want employees under me. I do not want to be involved in the business beyond development, even if I'm viewed as capable. I want to learn the domain, contribute effectively by building poo poo that matters, and move on after I've mastered what there is to learn in a particular role. My greatest desire is to work with someone who could provide me real mentorship. I also want more focus on microservices / GraphQL layer development / build automation ("devops") . I think my main mistake with my first jobs was in accepting positions with companies that are not tech companies. I would gladly accept a pay cut and work somewhere with a better culture and with mentors who give a poo poo. Unfortunately, I haven't been networking, as my current job exhausts my attention span and motivation. Given my lack of mentors and experienced people I trust, I turn to you for advice. Should I stay here for another year and give my boss more pushback, knowing that the market is hot and the consequences for me won't be very severe? Should I brush up on CTCI and hit the job boards? Should I slowly fade in my current position and start going to meet-ups and network my way into a job without the dehumanizing experience of endless take-home assignments, smug pedants and smoke and mirrors? Is my job experience common and will happen anywhere I go in this field? Help, I just want to build cool poo poo and go home at the end of the day! biceps crimes fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Apr 14, 2017 |
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Apr 14, 2017 22:28
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Sever.
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Apr 14, 2017 22:49
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If you've got that many words in you about the job then  asap. That's a poison that'll slowly burn your soul away. Wish I'd taken that advice 6 months ago.
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Apr 14, 2017 23:19
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Your boss is lovely. Talk to your skip level and if he doesn't do anything, find a new job.
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Apr 14, 2017 23:33
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Every indication here that you should get out. Explore every avenue available to you, smug pedants are pretty much inescapable in every environment (meetups, workplaces, slack/discord)
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Apr 14, 2017 23:55
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quote:The tools are way better now than they were in 2008, but what people are using them to do is really stupid. The problem with modern web development is that the whole SPA thing is encouraging businesses to make really huge, crappy web apps with dozens of megs of javascript that by all rights should be desktop applications, and it sucks doing front end on that kind of project.
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Apr 15, 2017 00:31
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Sinten posted:Career advice/politics advice needed. (warning: ranty and long) You've committed the sin of competence, and are being punished accordingly. This sounded remarkably like my first job, burning out talented employees and refusing to manage nonperformers. The plus side is that if they haven't fired the nonresponsive guy, you can probably coast safely and job search. Sucks to deal with constant passive aggressive comments but it seems like that's the most they're willing to confront people. Since pushing back gets you approximately nowhere, I wouldn't feel guilty about moving on in the same position. You might want to try to pick nonresponsive's brain and see if he's experienced similar - I could see burnout doing that to a person.
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Apr 15, 2017 01:23
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It sounds like you're effectively team lead / manager, and not getting the support you need. Sinten posted:This isn't what I wanted when I joined this team, and I'm not sure how this can be fixed without leaving. This may be my fault in not giving enough pushback early enough, or in not asking the right questions during the interview. I don't know! Could you have a better outcome in the future if you're proactive in managing scope creep in your role or asking for raises or managing expectations about what you want out of your career with them? Certainly. But from the sounds of it, they're being unfair and shoving duties well past what is reasonable. quote:"Don't be TOO enthusiastic now!" Sinten posted:To top it off, I regularly receive high praises in informal 1x1 reviews. But I have not and will not receive a formal review that is shared with me, and my merit raise this year was 2% with little explanation. There is no incentive for me to be performing at this level. Sinten posted:The others may have little on their plate, and my work load is max capacity Sinten posted:My career goals are exclusively focused on being a developer. I do not want employees under me. I do not want to be involved in the business beyond development, even if I'm viewed as capable. I want to learn the domain, contribute effectively by building poo poo that matters, and move on after I've mastered what there is to learn in a particular role. Sinten posted:Help, I just want to build cool poo poo and go home at the end of the day!
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Apr 15, 2017 02:10
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Kekekela posted:I've always felt like most devs I've worked with at corporate shops have preferred back end work, and so I tried to gravitate towards the front end to stay more in demand. As someone who remembers the VB6 days and how painful it was for some to transition to the web world, I feel pretty confidently that you'd see a lot of internal web apps revert to desktop if MSFT would act like they gave a crap about one of their desktop frameworks. I think it's the other way around and the MS desktop stuff has withered because there is little enterprise interest. Deployment sucks rear end and Web apps totally solve that problem (and also how to work with a DB without lazily giving everyone full access, remote work, etc.)
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Apr 15, 2017 02:23
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RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:(and also how to work with a DB without lazily giving everyone full access, remote work, etc.)  Native apps can use network connections even more easily than webapps can.As someone that doesn't run windows on their workstation, though, I'm pretty relieved that portable webapps are the new enterprise software standard. Except for that one thing that still requires silverlight of all things.
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Apr 15, 2017 03:28
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Sinten posted:Given my lack of mentors and experienced people I trust, I turn to you for advice. Should I stay here for another year and give my boss more pushback, knowing that the market is hot and the consequences for me won't be very severe? Should I brush up on CTCI and hit the job boards? Should I slowly fade in my current position and start going to meet-ups and network my way into a job without the dehumanizing experience of endless take-home assignments, smug pedants and smoke and mirrors? Is my job experience common and will happen anywhere I go in this field? Help, I just want to build cool poo poo and go home at the end of the day! Find something else and leave. You're dealing with a passive-aggressive person; he won't fire you but he also won't fix the situation. The only way to "solve" it in any conclusive way is to persuade your skip-level to fire him and replace him with you, and it sounds like you don't want to go down that road. Networking is a good idea, especially if you're a good talker and don't shy away from conversation. (This can also be a way to discover mentors, even outside of the professional/coworker relationship. I've gotten amazing advice, information literally worth tens of thousands of dollars, for the price of a cup of coffee or a meal.) You might want to look into consulting/contracting -- that can be a good way to leverage good communication skills as well as technical ones.
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Apr 15, 2017 04:30
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I agree with everything here. With the right company, there are plenty of opportunities possible without going management. I still don't know if I want to go the management route. And my company is fine with that. So instead, I'm my company's principal engineer now. I lead a lot of research into new technologies that we can use, as well as being an SME on several things in our application and just continually pushing for good change. It's nearly on the level of management, but sans management responsibilities. But I also mentor. I didn't expect to like mentoring others. Maybe it just comes with time and experience, but I've really enjoyed it. I don't particularly find myself (still) to be a good teacher. Aside from mentoring, I'm also a medium to bubble up issues (either product or process-wise) that they may even be worried to bring up to their manager because despite my title, I'm technically on their level. I'm not a glory hound. They know that when I suggest something, I will give credit if it's accepted. If not, then their secret stays with me. I may or may not use this to also mask my own horrible ideas from time to time 
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Apr 15, 2017 05:16
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Get a new gig and  , this is not a situation that is reasonably fixable by you and probably wouldn't be worth the effort if it were.As for avoiding the situation again, well, it's a numbers game and you've had bad luck a couple times in a row, is all. The best you can really do is take what you hate about your current and last job, and try really hard to find hints of the same nonsense in future employers during interviews. Not easy. But that's one of the reasons interview advice always includes "ask questions." Questions about the last time someone got promoted or took a vacation, questions about their process and tools, questions about their work environment. If they have products, find out about them (usually research on your own time is the best here, but a deeper question or two to the interviewers won't hurt). You'll get more information than just their direct answers by doing this, if you can read between the lines. Vague generalities and avoidance of specifics would be big red flags. Forthrightness about less desirable parts of the company scores major points from me if it comes from someone in management, especially my direct boss. (At my current job devs are expected to call in in case of emergency that the on-call people can't handle, which is most of them. This was communicated clearly to me in the interview, I asked some clarification questions like how often it happens on average, and the answers were honest even though I'm sure that information has scared some people away. I appreciated the hell out of knowing that up front). Try and read the mood of the current developers; do they seem content or happy? Is there any laughter? Try and differentiate between concentration and unhappiness. If you can talk 1-on-1 with an actual dev, ask those questions like, "what's the best part of working here?" and "what's one thing you dislike about working here?" Again you're looking to read between the lines here more than take what they say at face value. Also to echo everyone else: lol at management being a natural and required step in a developer's career. Maybe a silicon valley startup won't hire you to code when you're a Unixbeard with 25 years under your belt, but plenty of companies do value pure engineers.
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Apr 15, 2017 08:39
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Ralith posted:
I have seen a fair number of internal desktop apps where they literally just have the client have unrestricted access to the database and control everything through software, which is obviously a flawed design but if you want to do it the right way you end up needing to build a Web service and by the time you're doing that... e: For instance my last company had a custom application for performance reviews (for some loving reason) and it worked exactly this way so if you had a bit of knowledge and were curious you could pull up anyone's performance review. RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Apr 15, 2017 |
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Apr 15, 2017 14:42
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