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It's a plot point in Betrayer. According to Lorgar, Sanguinius is utterly incorruptible. Not because he's bound to the Emperor out of perfect love and perfect obedience, which he is, but because he's bound to the Emperor out of perfect fear. Here in this secular Imperium and its Imperial Truth is an honest-to-goodness winged angel who knows he's deeply and profoundly mutated and wrong, and he lives every day in abject terror that the Emperor and the Imperium will that day decide that Sanguinius is nothing but a filthy mutant and purge all memory of his existence.
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Apr 24, 2017 13:58
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Cythereal posted:It's a plot point in Betrayer. According to Lorgar, Sanguinius is utterly incorruptible. Not because he's bound to the Emperor out of perfect love and perfect obedience, which he is, but because he's bound to the Emperor out of perfect fear. Here in this secular Imperium and its Imperial Truth is an honest-to-goodness winged angel who knows he's deeply and profoundly mutated and wrong, and he lives every day in abject terror that the Emperor and the Imperium will that day decide that Sanguinius is nothing but a filthy mutant and purge all memory of his existence. That sounds like something Lorgar would say, yeah.
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Apr 24, 2017 14:33
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Cythereal posted:It's a plot point in Betrayer. According to Lorgar, Sanguinius is utterly incorruptible. Not because he's bound to the Emperor out of perfect love and perfect obedience, which he is, but because he's bound to the Emperor out of perfect fear. Here in this secular Imperium and its Imperial Truth is an honest-to-goodness winged angel who knows he's deeply and profoundly mutated and wrong, and he lives every day in abject terror that the Emperor and the Imperium will that day decide that Sanguinius is nothing but a filthy mutant and purge all memory of his existence. I recall reading this and really enjoyed the characterization
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Apr 24, 2017 14:45
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Same here. It was a nice twist both about Sanguinius, giving context to his incorruptible pure pureness, and about loyalty itself, establishing that it doesn't always have a noble origin. It also went a way to show Lorgar maturing into his own guy and being able to measure himself realistically against his brothers. quote:‘The Emperor, for all his many flaws, knows his sons well. Horus was chosen as Warmaster because he is the best of us. In Horus, all things are found in balance, and yet every facet is raised to excellence. Sanguinius is similar. His virtues eclipse the rest of us, for which of us could match his grace, his compassion, or his understanding of the human condition? And yet our brother is unbalanced. Profoundly so. He represents both the very best and the very worst of what it is to be a primarch. He is the noblest of us but also the most fearful; a glorious creature enslaved by insecurities.’ I enjoy the subtle touch that he basically has this insight because both of them turned up with traits that the Emperor abhorred; religion and mutation. Sanguinius ignored his flaw to the extent that it was possible to avoid the Emperor's sanction, Lorgar actually pursued his nature to try and prove its worth to daddy (like Magnus).
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Apr 24, 2017 15:10
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Huh I've always kinda wondered if he literally had wings or if it was some kind of decoration. Neat.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:30
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Isn't it missing the point a little talking about the physical characteristics of Primarchs? The impression given by the HH books is that they principally exist as boiling vortices of barely constrained psychic energy with their physical bodies existing mostly as an afterthought.
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Apr 24, 2017 20:32
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Well yes but the plebs don't know that
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Apr 24, 2017 20:34
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My take is that the primarchs are basically warp entities that the emperor either found or purified and captured into physical bodies. Primarchs are daemon hosts. The most likely scenario in this theory is that they are aspects of various virtues.
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Apr 24, 2017 21:28
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Demiurge4 posted:My take is that the primarchs are basically warp entities that the emperor either found or purified and captured into physical bodies. Primarchs are daemon hosts. So would that make Pertuarbo the aspect of autism?
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Apr 24, 2017 21:36
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Zil posted:So would that make Pertuarbo the aspect of autism? Thought that was the Lion
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Apr 24, 2017 22:09
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Pretty sure they're all avatars of autism, except for like, Russ and Angron.
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Apr 24, 2017 23:06
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Cat Army 
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The Iron Rose posted:Pretty sure they're all avatars of autism, except for like, Russ and Angron. What is a neo-liberal death cult?
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Apr 24, 2017 23:36
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Uncle w Benefits posted:What is a neo-liberal death cult? I explained the relevant international law surrounding targeted killing and drone use (which is very friendly to both), and was rewarded as a result. I actually love it though. In other words I was acting as an IoM lawyer. The Iron Rose fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Apr 25, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 23:46
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Demiurge4 posted:My take is that the primarchs are basically warp entities that the emperor either found or purified and captured into physical bodies. Primarchs are daemon hosts. That seems pretty unlikely, least of all because it would be a case of Daemons being able to possess possessed bodies (Fulgrim). Also it would require daemonhosts being able to 'ascend' to daemonhood which... yeah I think that's a hard sell. Primarchs are certainly Warp beings of some sort although they kind of try to show that they're categorically different from the Emperor in the same sense they're categorically different from Humanity. It's somewhat like, if the Emperor is the sort of distillation of Humanity's nature into a single being (the sort of Chaos God of Humanity) then the Primarchs are distillations of Human archetypes. They lack the universality of the Emperor and so they're closer to individual people with the same imbalances and imperfections of temperament, etc. Under that sort of model the'd be differentiated from the Chaos Gods and Daemons in that, the Pantheon are distillations of emotions and primal urges. These are pan species and lack any kind of human values or understanding. There's interaction and some sort of intelligibility in the same way people can recognise hunger or fear in animals (and I guess Xenos since this is 40k) but that doesn't translate into everything else that comes with Human culture. That picture of Warp entities is pretty Platonic (in that universal idea and archetypes approach) but I think that works with the way metaphysics seems to operate in Warhams. Also I like the take on Primarchs denying or embracing their 'failings' dictating whether or not they fall. The Dornian Heresy where Sanguinius falls and becomes the chosen of Nurgle he is initially found by the mutants on Baal and dedicates himself to killing all the pure humans. Then basically dedicates himself to hiding his mutant nature but murders all the Terran Blood Angels and replaces them with Baalian mutants and totally embraces his non-human winged nature. Perhaps it is unsurprising that version is a little more on-board with a rebellion against human purity.
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Apr 25, 2017 01:23
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The Iron Rose posted:I explained the relevant international law surrounding targeted killing and drone use (which is very friendly to both), and was rewarded as a result. Soooo America using drones?
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Apr 25, 2017 02:07
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Uncle w Benefits posted:Soooo America using drones? Yeah basically. I was trying to shoehorn a reference to the Imperium and bearing my wounds from heretics proudly and all that but it's just not working.
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Apr 25, 2017 02:39
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Roller Coast Guard posted:Isn't it missing the point a little talking about the physical characteristics of Primarchs? The impression given by the HH books is that they principally exist as boiling vortices of barely constrained psychic energy with their physical bodies existing mostly as an afterthought. That's just Magnus.
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Apr 25, 2017 02:45
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Cythereal posted:That's just Magnus. I thought he was the angsty teenager with daddy issues. More than the rest anyway.
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Apr 25, 2017 02:46
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Cythereal posted:That's just Magnus. Nah, it's all of them. They exude command, every bog-standard human nearly passes out upon first meeting them. They're Psykers. Some are just more Psyker than others.
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Apr 25, 2017 02:56
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Every primarch was exposed directly to the warp when they were scattered by chaos. Some became absolute mutants (Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus) while others were more subtle (Corax is an absolute psyker) and others were created with more innate psyker abilities, such as Magnus. The warp touched all of them as it is *heavily* suggested throughout all the 40K lore that The Big E stole the tech to make the primarchs from chaos itself. What makes things less easy to grasp is why some of the heavily chaos influenced didn't turn and why the lesser afflicted did. Sanguinius had literal pinions of angelic proportions sprout from his back, Ferrus had hands of liquid metal, and Vulkan is a literal immortal being, but they remained loyal beyond reproach despite such unfettered influence by chaos. The more mundane or subdued primarchs turned to chaos wholeheartedly for what seem to be purely human reasons: bitter jealousy, boastful pride, and blind ambition. Even though this shlock is pulpy sci-fi bolter porn marketed to pubescent high school boys, it's still a fun time to read about these demi-gods and their gene-childer and ponder one what made each more loyal humans, and the others their diametrically opposed enemies, while still having been cut from the same genetic cloth of the Emperor.
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Apr 25, 2017 03:21
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The Primarchs all had a presence in the warp, but so does everyone who isn't a blank. As far as I can remember, Magnus is the only one who's shown to be an actual psyker, and he's the only one who's described as looking different from person to person or situation to situation. The others definitely had physical bodies that mattered. Kurze was killed by a regular Vindicare Assassin. When Ferrus died, sure, all the Iron Hands felt it and new their Primarch was dead, so there was some sort of magic going on there. But that was the full extent. Ferrus didn't turn into a warp entity when his physical body was defeated, he just died.Uncle w Benefits posted:Every primarch was exposed directly to the warp when they were scattered by chaos. Some became absolute mutants (Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus) while others were more subtle (Corax is an absolute psyker) and others were created with more innate psyker abilities, such as Magnus. The warp touched all of them as it is *heavily* suggested throughout all the 40K lore that The Big E stole the tech to make the primarchs from chaos itself. What makes things less easy to grasp is why some of the heavily chaos influenced didn't turn and why the lesser afflicted did. Sanguinius had literal pinions of angelic proportions sprout from his back, Ferrus had hands of liquid metal, and Vulkan is a literal immortal being, but they remained loyal beyond reproach despite such unfettered influence by chaos. The more mundane or subdued primarchs turned to chaos wholeheartedly for what seem to be purely human reasons: bitter jealousy, boastful pride, and blind ambition. Sanguinius had wings in the tube before he got tossed in the Warp, Ferrus' hands were from sticking his arms in some sort of weird river (that I always assumed was somehow related to Necron technology) years after his warp exposure, and Immortal humans are just a thing that happens. And it's flat out stated that the Emperor made some kind of deal with Chaos to create the Primarchs, and he reneged on that deal in someway. Admittedly, it's stated by Daemons, but still.
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Apr 25, 2017 04:22
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Disturbingly Magnus remembers being born and having Daddy place his soul in his body. I think it is in A Thousand Sons he mentions becoming aware that he was being born and then looking down into the fetal body that was waiting for him.
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Apr 25, 2017 04:27
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Yeah they have physical bodies but the only instance of a primarch dying without serious warp involvement is Kurze and he basically choose to die. The others all die at the hands of their fellow primarch or the big Enough. I guess Vulkan may be an exception since he gets killed over and over but he's also an Eternal so the rules are kind of out the window there. They are also pretty much all capable of physically impossible feats of strength and shrugging of grievous wounds. It seems like they have super Custodes bodies with some aspect of the Emperor bonded to them. Maybe the Chaos gods helped the Emperor essentially craft parts of himself in the same way they make Greater Daemons in return for something.
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Apr 25, 2017 05:07
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Ferrus Manus being a mutant is one of the weirdest claims I have seen. Like he has weird possibly xenocrafted bionic hands but that doesn't make him a mutant. I feel like a lot of the claims that they are beings of pure warp covered with a thin veil of people is from the Battle of the fang when Magnus gets his shitted kicked in and his skin rips and basically just reveals pure warp. I doubt GW planned ahead but if they did it would totally fit the idea proposed in The White Scar books where Magnus basically gets shattered into a bunch of warp reflections, one stronger one which goes the planet of sorcerers , the others futz about and act as deus ex machinas to help the Imperium. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Apr 25, 2017 |
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Apr 25, 2017 06:16
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MrNemo posted:I guess Vulkan may be an exception since he gets killed over and over but he's also an Eternal so the rules are kind of out the window there. In The Beast Arises, Vulkan fights the biggest, meanest, toughest Ork boss in the whole drat galaxy and loses. It is strongly implied he is killed. That's M33 or so.
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Apr 25, 2017 06:26
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While as far as I know every other primarch bleeds, and is full of guts and muscle.
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Apr 25, 2017 06:28
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mllaneza posted:In The Beast Arises, Vulkan fights the biggest, meanest, toughest Ork boss in the whole drat galaxy and loses. It is strongly implied he is killed. That's M33 or so. Have you read the HH books about him, he dies and then comes back to life, thats kinda his gimmick. Did they address that in the novel or?
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Apr 25, 2017 06:28
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MrNemo posted:Yeah they have physical bodies but the only instance of a primarch dying without serious warp involvement is Kurze and he basically choose to die. The others all die at the hands of their fellow primarch or the big Enough. I guess Vulkan may be an exception since he gets killed over and over but he's also an Eternal so the rules are kind of out the window there. They are also pretty much all capable of physically impossible feats of strength and shrugging of grievous wounds. I thought Dorn just kinda gets shot to death on a random ship somewhere
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Apr 25, 2017 06:33
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I thought Dorn just kinda gets shot to death on a random ship somewhere They just found a pair of hands on the ship, shrugged, grabbed them and said "Well i guess he is dead and these are his hands". I forgot what actual cannon source it is but its suggested he might be loving around somewhere on Terra. I think all of the loyal primarchs who died actually have built in "He isn't really dead" fluff. Ferrus's body disappeared and Angel Mechafunkzilla posted:....without hands? Bionics I guess? He is apparently tricky bastard so he might have vat grown fake hands but thats just a wild guess. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Apr 25, 2017 |
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Apr 25, 2017 06:36
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Telsa Cola posted:They just found a pair of hands on the ship, shrugged, grabbed them and said "Well i guess he is dead and these are his hands". ....without hands?
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Apr 25, 2017 06:42
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Guy Goodbody posted:The Primarchs all had a presence in the warp, but so does everyone who isn't a blank. As far as I can remember, Magnus is the only one who's shown to be an actual psyker, and he's the only one who's described as looking different from person to person or situation to situation. More than one of the Primarchs share E's precognition abilities to varying degrees, plus Alpharius and Omegon seem to have the ability to "share" their mind with Legionnaires who drink their blood. There's a lot of psychic powers in the Primarchs.
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Apr 25, 2017 07:38
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Telsa Cola posted:
They have him dying and regenerating leading up to them finding him, (and obviously the fact he's still around) but yes it's implied he didn't come back after getting obliterated by the big mean ork
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Apr 25, 2017 09:29
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Skarsnik posted:They have him dying and regenerating leading up to them finding him, (and obviously the fact he's still around) but yes it's implied he didn't come back after getting obliterated by the big mean ork Obviously we wont know until they make new fluff but since the Horus Heresy books had a huge subplot line of trying to get him to stop being immortal involving maguffins which ultimately failed I doubt he is dead dead from a generator explosion, dude probably did what he did before and hosed off to go do stuff.
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Apr 25, 2017 10:11
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I thought the labyrinth stuff about Vulkan was a bit lame. My impression when i first heard about his ability was that he reincarnates and doesn't just regenerate. So the whole point about the labyrinth was to keep him trapped without killing him because if he dies he escapes. Then it turns out it's just a weekend torture vacation.
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Apr 25, 2017 10:18
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I mean the Primarchs definitely have physical bodies with guts and whatnots but it's pretty definite that they are also some kind of Warp entity, even if one engineered by the big E. And I don't mean they're daemons, the whole point of those is that they're essentially disembodied and any body they get is one they're possessing. However physics is more or less similar to our universe and the Primarchs are capable of feats of strength or endurance which just aren't physically possible. Angron lifts a battle titan. Even if you're over 2m tall and packed with genetically engineered muscle there is no way you're capable of the energy required for that level of strength. Without even getting into the question of whether super dense bones would be physically capable of bearing that load. The one big difference that allows for a lot of the outlandish fuckery is the Warp. I guess it leaves a question of whether beings can be imbued with enormous amounts of Warp energy and seemingly be able to draw upon it as well as have clear empathic connections with those who share some of their genetic material (at least) without being labelled as psykers.
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Apr 25, 2017 13:46
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MrNemo posted:Angron lifts a battle titan. Even if you're over 2m tall and packed with genetically engineered muscle there is no way you're capable of the energy required for that level of strength. Without even getting into the question of whether super dense bones would be physically capable of bearing that load. Or without being driven like a nail into the ground by the immense pressure. Re: Vulkan chat. I had gotten the impression, possibly errant, that after Vulkans final 'reset' in the heresy books that he was no longer a perpetual. It's been long enought that I don't remember the details, but I came away with that impression. Deptfordx fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 16:45
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It's not a spoiler to say "Vulkan Lives", that's literally Vulcan's shtick. He lives. There is no end for him. Vulkan Lives.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:33
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Deptfordx posted:Or without being driven like a nail into the ground by the immense pressure. Yeah, I thought this too. Wasn't he stabbed with some maguffin that would set him free from coming back but then DUN DUN DUN a heartbeat! I've no intention of slogging through that book again
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Apr 27, 2017 18:24
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Dog_Meat posted:vulkan vulkan spoilers I mean he gets turbo murdered by orcs in m32 to yes hes still alive
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Apr 27, 2017 18:27
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I think whats his name baulks at the last moment and so it means he still is a perpetual.
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Apr 27, 2017 18:30
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