|
Well, ALSO to be fair, the Champion level Digimon not named Angemon stopped mattering pretty much right after that moment too. Like, seriously, outside of Greymon running through a city, what did any of their Champion level Digimon even do during the Myotismon arc? I think Kabuterimon killed another Champion level and that's about it. Angemon was the sole exception and even then by the Dark Masters period he was pretty goddamn swamped by way, way too powerful bad guys. Gatomon was easily one of the strongest champions. 02 did her a severe disservice by making her equivalent to a Rookie for very silly reasons when she could have been one of the most valuable Digimon around by virtue of always being Champion level. Hell, you can still have her Armor Digivolve into a still Champion equivalent Nerftimon, just justify it by pointing out all the different powers she has there. Flight, laser beams, Rosetta stone...missile..things
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 04:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 7, 2024 20:04 |
|
|
The Adult levels appeared semi frequently in that arc and afterwards. Mostly in the prelude to evolving to Perfect or when the team needed transportation. There were still plenty of times where they could have had Tailmon fight in that arc, either on Vamdemon's side or when she was trying to steal the crest or trying to save Hikari. But she's just kind of wandering around most of that time or watching things happen. I think the only time she really attacks after that is when they're all in the digital world failing to fight the Dark Masters. Tailmon never really fought enough to make 02 depowering her make an impression on me either way.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 04:53
|
|
|
Burkion posted:Gatomon was easily one of the strongest champions. 02 did her a severe disservice by making her equivalent to a Rookie for very silly reasons when she could have been one of the most valuable Digimon around by virtue of always being Champion level. Hell, you can still have her Armor Digivolve into a still Champion equivalent Nerftimon, just justify it by pointing out all the different powers she has there. Flight, laser beams, Rosetta stone...missile..things On the flip side that would've reduced a lot of Nefertimon's usefulness if Gatomon retained her power as a Champion. Also I'm pretty sure XVmon, Ankylomon and Aquilamon were implied to be stronger than their Armor forms.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 04:53
|
|
|
Dark_Tzitzimine posted:On the flip side that would've reduced a lot of Nefertimon's usefulness if Gatomon retained her power as a Champion. Also I'm pretty sure XVmon, Ankylomon and Aquilamon were implied to be stronger than their Armor forms. That's cause the Armor Digimon are for the most part a lot weaker than a standard Adult Digimon, there's a reason most of their use is in an arc where they don't actually have to kill anything It's also why a lot of the early episode fodder in Tamers are Armors that didn't appear in 02
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 05:21
|
|
|
Dark_Tzitzimine posted:On the flip side that would've reduced a lot of Nefertimon's usefulness if Gatomon retained her power as a Champion. Also I'm pretty sure XVmon, Ankylomon and Aquilamon were implied to be stronger than their Armor forms. See that's why I would have suggested playing up the things that would make her slightly more useful. Like being able to fly and such. The problem is, exactly that. Digimon Season 2 had a severe power scale problem. All of the threats in 02 were on a much smaller scale than they were in 01, which wouldn't be as bad if we didn't have returning characters making it all the more striking. But I'm not getting into that now. That's just a weird thing 02 decided to do and they matched the Digimon to it. I think it would have been neat if she was stuck as Salamon instead, but you have to have brand recognition and stuff.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 05:24
|
|
|
If Tailmon is more powerful than the rest of everyone's highest available forms, then it makes it that much harder to justify everyone else doing anything. The Holy Ring being a source of power was something the source material already justified.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 05:31
|
|
|
but like one of the most frustrating things in Digimon is how over the place Armor levels are portrayed across media strength wise. In Adventure they're a step below Adult. In Tamers they're more or less Adults. Frontier threw power levels out the window entirely but a lot of them were used in roles more befitting a Child level. In Savers? drat near every single one of them is treated like or on par with a Perfect level, able to match one easily or requiring multiple Adults or higher to defeat them. Then the Bio Hybrids stomp all over RizeGreymon, MachGaogamon, and Lilamon. The video games are all over the place too. There's just a general sense of "we don't know what to do with these things" once Adventure is over and each major media source has a different idea of what to do with them.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 05:48
|
|
|
I think that's just a consequence of how weird the Digimon multiverse is. As in, there really isn't one except there kind of is one except there REALLY isn't one. So things that make sense in one series can just go out the goddamn window in another. Like, how powerful Ultimate, Mega, Champion and all that really is or if they even matter come Xros. With any other series, like say Kamen Rider, the gimmick of one season that pops up in another will still follow the same basic rules and be directly comparable. With Digimon, that is absolutely never the case. Armor Digimon in Adventure are SPECIFICALLY human empowered Digimon using Digi Eggs as an alternate method of Digivolution. In Tamers? They're just normal Digimon who presumably Digivolved the normal way. Never mind what the extra material will tell you. It's the whole Royal Knights thing again, Re- How exactly they work across the franchise. Or especially Guilmon, who in Tamers is a unique Digimon ONLY brought into existence thanks to Takato, while in any other series he's just a regular Digimon that exists.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 05:56
|
|
|
Well, here's the thing. Tamers seems to generally follow how Bandai treats them. In the card game, the Armors were always treated as "Level IV", which was equal to Adult. They only had "Armor" filled in the level criteria, and once they started appearing normally in Tamers, the card game followed suit with traditional evolution requirements that lacked Digimentals and "Adult" listed instead of armor. Which generally means as far as Bandai's "null canon" is concerned Armor Evolution is just a means of assuming a form that exists naturally with artificial means. Tamers, and to an extent Savers and Frontier, jive pretty well with this interpretation of where they come from. What varies so widely is how powerful they are and their overall importance. I have no problems with each universe operating by different rules and having origins for Digimon that are incompatible. What I spoke of more is that Armor being inconsistent across multiple series - especially Savers, which adheres closest to Bandai's source material - feels weird to me. Each series changes the rules in some way and operates by its own internal logic, but it's usually in a way that affects things across the board. Armors are the only ones that show up and have a different set of rules consistently. It happens with so much weird regularity it stands out, whereas other different things seem to be at the designs of individual writers and don't have any real guiding hand. It feels like they're constantly trying to find a different place for these things and I just wish I knew why. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 06:08 on May 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 06:04
|
|
|
Then you have Magnamon who is consistently on par with its fellow Royal Knights whom are all Mega. The BioHybrids are also an unusual case do to them being hybrids meaning that they really should have been Hybrid level.Burkion posted:I think it would have been neat if she was stuck as Salamon instead, but you have to have brand recognition and stuff. I have considered that as an alternative to nerfing Gatomon as well but I like the idea of Gatomon's Armor stages all being equal to Ultimate level just because it would make sense do to Gatomon herself being a Champion Level Digimon and the aforementioned Magnamon. Overall though, I do wish that Digimon was more like Tranformers in that new gimmicks actually have a universal effect on the franchise the way that the Spark, Protoforms or the concept of Technorganics from Beast Wars and Beast Machines did. Hybrids for example should have been the catch-all Level for human/digimon hybrids as noted before while the Hybrid Level species that were introduced in Frontier would've just had traditional Levels like Champion, Ultimate, and Mega.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 06:18
|
|
|
BioHybrids are only a reference, not a level unto themselves. They're still treated as Level IV, or Ultimate, as the case may be. I really don't think Kurata's science experiments should overlap with the Hybrids of Frontier. To be honest, Digimon being flexible with its scaling and evolution methods is one of its strengths and lets them work in different things and tell different kinds of stories. It's just when something consistently gets this kind of attention that I just want to know what's up, really. It feels like there's a story there. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 06:23 on May 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 06:21
|
|
|
The Gatomon thing would have be exceedingly easy to fix without having to gently caress with power levels. Just say that for whatever plot reason, the Digimon can't fight at full power/aren't fully effective in the area around Dark Spires and such, unless they're infected by the evil energy and stuff. Armor Digimon bypass that. There you go, now you need Armor forms to keep going, no matter what power your previous level was, or what comparable power your Armor form ACTUALLY is.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 06:24
|
|
|
Kurui Reiten posted:The Gatomon thing would have be exceedingly easy to fix without having to gently caress with power levels. Just say that for whatever plot reason, the Digimon can't fight at full power/aren't fully effective in the area around Dark Spires and such, unless they're infected by the evil energy and stuff. Armor Digimon bypass that. There you go, now you need Armor forms to keep going, no matter what power your previous level was, or what comparable power your Armor form ACTUALLY is. That still sounds like messing with power levels. I'm gonna be honest here. Why of all the supposed problems in 02, does this bother people? Tailmon barely fought anyway. It doesn't affect her when her Perfect forms show up. All it does is really present a technicality that makes her temporarily less effective in a hypothetical internet fight. Is it just because one of the original 8 is now less special? Because that's honestly what this feel like. Between that and 02 saying Angemon is only really affective against evil digimon, it sounds more like people just want their pre-conceptions of how great the Geewun characters maintained more than anything. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 06:33 on May 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 06:29
|
|
|
Nah but the 02 do kind of suck. The show makes it a point that armor kind of sucks for whatever reason. Also the retcon for Angemon is dumb.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 06:31
|
|
|
It's not really a retcon considering the majority of what Angemon fought in the first series is exactly what it said he was effective against. Like, I'm pretty sure he fights close to nothing else in the entire show. I mean, what's the problem? He's the only Chosen digimon who gets this kind of advantage. He's still the subject of a prophecy and his first appearance is treated like an event. Angemon is still incredibly special, in this context. But he can't beat a bug and that means someone else is gonna get some attention. How horrible.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 06:35
|
|
|
Because it's dumb. It adds nothing but to make the new guys more special but that is season 2 in a nutshell. Though honestly season 2 shouldn't have been a direct sequel anyway.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 06:38
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Because it's dumb. Except they're not being made "more special", they're being given situations where they can actually matter and Takeru and Patamon aren't a heavenly body everyone else orbits around that can solve all the team's problems. Which he never was. Not even in Adventure. The only one in this equation that's still "special" is Angemon, because again, he's the only one with a special effect on ANYTHING. Even if it was a retcon, which it very much isn't anyway, it's also a necessary thing so there's still a challenge not just for the new kids, but Takeru and Patamon too. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 06:46 on May 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 06:43
|
|
|
Kurui Reiten posted:The Gatomon thing would have be exceedingly easy to fix without having to gently caress with power levels. Just say that for whatever plot reason, the Digimon can't fight at full power/aren't fully effective in the area around Dark Spires and such, unless they're infected by the evil energy and stuff. Armor Digimon bypass that. There you go, now you need Armor forms to keep going, no matter what power your previous level was, or what comparable power your Armor form ACTUALLY is. That is exactly what they did? They explained that Dark Spires emitted some kind of energy that made impossible for the partner digimon to evolve past rookie level while Gatomon got nerfed by the lost of her holy ring. Armor evolutions being some kind of ancient evolution process made them able to bypass the Spire powers. EDIT: Welp  
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 06:46
|
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:Except they're not being made "more special", they're being given situations where they can actually matter and Takeru and Patamon aren't a heavenly body everyone else orbits around that can solve all the team's problems. I am not sure why you disagreed with my point and then made an argument in support but okay. It's to make them more special, just like the armor in general, retconning angemon and is why it's a big problem for them to be a sequel. They have to spend time making the new guys useful by mainly making the old guys useless and powering them down. It would be different if there was a narrative payoff but there isn't,
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 06:55
|
|
|
I've explained, at length, why the circumstances involving Angemon aren't a "retcon". The rest of it is me pointing out that it's necessary Takeru not be treated like a force unto himself that undermines everyone with a partner not named "Patamon", in Adventure or 02 both. He's still important. Like, nothing there is being taken away. I mean for god's sake he's one of only three characters they make a special excuse to bring back his old Perfect form before Qinglongmon comes around and gives the rest of the old characters the power to do it again. It's not just a matter of building up the old kids, come to think of it. Watching the same characters steam roll over new challenges, or one character dominating over the rest, is really boring and basically anathema to a series that thrives on introducing multiple cool monster designs. I mean, yanno how everyone complains about how in Frontier, once KaiserGreymon and MagnaGarurumon show up everyone else is useless? If Angemon were what you people seem to think he is, it'd be just like that, whether the other characters are named Daisuke and Miyako or Taichi and Sora.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:01
|
|
|
I'm not getting into this round of argue with TFR about Angemon in Adventure again, I think I've done that enough in this thread What I will say is I need to know what the new versions of those loving things look like right the hell now. I had the Blackwar Greymon version of that fucker and I loved it. It was the worst best worst thing.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:12
|
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:I've explained, at length, why the circumstances involving Angemon aren't a "retcon". The rest of it is me pointing out that it's necessary Takeru not be treated like a force unto himself that undermines everyone with a partner not named "Patamon", in Adventure or 02 both. Why do you keep bringing up Angemon? Until you started arguing the point, no one else was talking about him. Angemon is simple: he is super effective against Dark types. That's it. That's the entire gimmick. Angewomon has the same gimmick, she's just a tier higher than he is. If TK had managed to get Magna Angemon against Myotismon, that arc would have been immediately solved. So what are you arguing? That people are saying Angemon is actually weak? I'm not even sure where your argument is going anymore, you literally brought it up to argue against with no prompting. The main thing people are saying right now is that in 02, the story bent over backwards to justify why the original group were ineffective. That's not even debatable, that is what happened. Which is standard fare for sequels like this, because otherwise War Greymon and Metal Garurumon would have just walked up to the Digimon Emperor and been like "hey, keep it down son". In fact, it seemed what kicked off this argument was the idea that Gatomon actually got a fairly good showing in her initial appearance, taking out everyone in one hit. After which, 02 dropped her down to rookie level. For a lot of people seeing that scene for the first time, and being introduced to her, and her arc afterwards, that made her the coolest poo poo. Seeing her dropped down to Rookie level strength because "oops, lost a little piece of jewelry" rubs people the wrong way, no matter how it was justified. There were also narrative alternatives around that, but they didn't use any of them. They simply justified it (way) after the fact, and left one of the cooler Digimon down a tier for the entire season. Your argument about Angemon is invalid, because the one who stopped following the rules in 02 was Gatomon, and the justification for that was weak and pointless.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:14
|
|
|
Kurui Reiten posted:In fact, it seemed what kicked off this argument was the idea that Gatomon actually got a fairly good showing in her initial appearance, taking out everyone in one hit. After which, 02 dropped her down to rookie level. For a lot of people seeing that scene for the first time, and being introduced to her, and her arc afterwards, that made her the coolest poo poo. Seeing her dropped down to Rookie level strength because "oops, lost a little piece of jewelry" rubs people the wrong way, no matter how it was justified. But Gatomon nerfing happened as soon she joined the digidestined, so is kind of overreacting at 02. At least 02 gave a reasonable explanation for that instead of shoving her to the background and let Angewomon do all the work.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:23
|
|
|
Dark_Tzitzimine posted:But Gatomon nerfing happened as soon she joined the digidestined, so is kind of overreacting at 02. At least 02 gave a reasonable explanation for that instead of shoving her to the background and let Angewomon do all the work. At that point, they were only fighting Ultimates/Megas. All the Champions were pushed to the back in terms of battle strength. Gatomon didn't have an Angemon-style super effective element, so she was treated as a normal Champion; ineffective against higher tiers. If she got knocked around a little, it was because she was about the size of a rookie and weighed about the same. Didn't make her weaker.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:32
|
|
|
I brought it up because it felt like it and the Tailmon thing come from a similar source, and CharlesTheHammer responded to it. Tailmon got dropped down after her first appearance due to exclusion because none of her later appearances really followed through on the promise her first appearance granted. The sheer number of circumstances where she could have been more useful in Adventure is mind boggling and in fact, the instances where her level is outright ignored serve only to give her and Hikari less agency through the entire back half of the show. But no, 02 actually acknowledging she should, ideally, be more powerful and handing her a modest nerf that actually results in giving her and Hikari opportunities to be more involved in the team is somehow a bad thing? Hell, look at the Mugendramon arc. Hikari is seriously ill, Tailmon's default form is Adult, and who does the lion's share of the focus go to? Who gets to step up and prove themselves? Taichi. Hell, Koushirou and Sora and their partners get to contribute more to all that. I don't think Tailmon even fights until Hikari's deus ex machina powers activate and she turns into Angewomon, and then she's just a face in the crowd. Meanwhile, I think Tailmon fights more as Tailmon than she does in the first series. Hikari, Takeru, and their partners are at the epicenter of a lot of preconceptions that aren't actually even supported by Adventure, just an idealized version of it that comes from it showing up first. quote:At that point, they were only fighting Ultimates/Megas. This is actually demonstrably false. There's tons of episodes where they're just fighting the Dark Masters or Vamdemon's minions. Hell, half of Vamdemon's posse is just Adult-level; but they waste something like Snimon on Garudamon (which... it beats? for some reason?). Mugendramon spends two entire episodes siccing his Adult level minions in an arc that has Hikari's safety as an important plot point and, as stated above, Tailmon gets to do next to nothing.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:33
|
|
|
Dark_Tzitzimine posted:But Gatomon nerfing happened as soon she joined the digidestined, so is kind of overreacting at 02. At least 02 gave a reasonable explanation for that instead of shoving her to the background and let Angewomon do all the work. I already covered this The ONLY Champions that did dick all beyond act as transport after Gatomon got introduced was Angemon. Gatomon, every time she got to face off against other Champion level threats, which wasn't super often, was just as powerful as she should have been in Adventure. It's just by that point, being Champion level was a death wish. She didn't REALLY join the main cast until the Dark Masters after all. NO ONE used their Champion levels to actually fight during that time period. That's just a byproduct of her being a late addition. Like, even in the Myotismon arc, being a powerful Champion meant dick all if you weren't Angemon because Angemon was geared specifically against evil Digimon. The only notable fight in the Myotismon arc that involved the Champions were against other Champion level Digimon, and even then not always. Snimon and Dark Tryanomon were Champion level threats with the power of Ultimates.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:34
|
|
|
I think you're justifying stuff like that after the fact, Burkion. They don't have Lilymon beat an Adult with the power of a Perfect, they fail to have Garudamon and Togemon beat Adult levels. Snimon honestly feels like an oversight, but DarkTyrannomon is consistent with Mimi being treated like she's a step behind everyone else and not getting as many victories against impressive foes. She doesn't even defeat DarkTyrannomon in the same sense the other characters beat their opponents.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:37
|
|
|
Kurui Reiten posted:At that point, they were only fighting Ultimates/Megas. All the Champions were pushed to the back in terms of battle strength. Gatomon didn't have an Angemon-style super effective element, so she was treated as a normal Champion; ineffective against higher tiers. If she got knocked around a little, it was because she was about the size of a rookie and weighed about the same. Didn't make her weaker. Is not about being knocker around, is that she didn't do anything after joining the team. Plus, you'd think someone that could beat six champion digimon on her own wouldn't be knocked around that easily.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:38
|
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:I've explained, at length, why the circumstances involving Angemon aren't a "retcon". The rest of it is me pointing out that it's necessary Takeru not be treated like a force unto himself that undermines everyone with a partner not named "Patamon", in Adventure or 02 both. Have you explained you keep saying it isn't but I don't think you actually know what a retcon is. A retcon is adding a reason why something happened much later after the fact. Which is literally what happened. It's a retcon there is no debate to be had. You can like it or not but it is what it is.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:43
|
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:But no, 02 actually acknowledging she should, ideally, be more powerful and handing her a modest nerf that actually results in giving her and Hikari opportunities to be more involved in the team is somehow a bad thing? Yes, actually, because the way the nerf worked was "oh poo poo, my little tail jewelry is gone, I am now a weakling". It didn't matter how it was justified later, first impressions are very important, and to a lot of people Gatomon's first impression being "clowns all the heroes", followed by "partner to the girl with the clear magical powers", "lost anti-hero", "cool bro dies for her", and "gets an angelic power up before one-shotting the big bad who had been clowning everyone else the rest of the arc" kind of cemented her in those people's minds as kind of a big deal, and cool as gently caress. After that, we go right to Megas, which were then kind of a big deal, and took a lot of the focus away. People didn't notice Gatomon being not quite as cool as before because they were distracted by the dragon man and the robot wolf being cool. Meanwhile, in 02, her being weakened is thrown right into your face. You are flat told "she lost a tiny ring, thus she is weakened", and that's it. As I said, it takes an extended amount of time to get to the justification for why her not getting that ring back ASAP was important, and for that entire time, she comes off as the only Adventure cast member who is explicitly nerfed, as opposed to circumstances just disabling better forms. She was first introduced as a powerful, cool, female villain/anti-hero who got to kick rear end in Adventure, was overshadowed by the new hotness for a while, and then in the sequel series she was kicked down to the rookie leagues, literally, by narrative fiat. That rubbed people the wrong way, no matter how you want to say the plot justified it later.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:46
|
|
|
Powering down previous protagonists is never a good idea in general.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:49
|
|
|
quote:A retcon is adding a reason why something happened much later after the fact. Which is literally what happened. A retcon is retroactively changing established continuity. quote:1. A subsequent revision of an established story in film, TV, video games, or comics In what way does going "Angemon is only OP against Evil digimon"? What pre-established information does this contradict? The only characters he's shown beating in the entire first series that an Adult-level should have no business beating fall into that exact category. Devimon, Phantomon, Vamdemon, Piemon - they're all spooky scary darky mcdarkersons both Adventure and the surrounding media treat as falling into the aforementioned category, and surprise surprise, they're the sum total of Angemon or his evolved forms' wins in that series. He's not even shown to be especially strong against Mugendramon's underlings, which are machine types and not creepy devils, which is the only other significant event in Adventure I can especially remember him so much as participating in. The only thing that 02's statement about his powers conflicts with is fandom's assumptions.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:50
|
|
|
Adding is revising yes it does not need to contradict as most retcons don't.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:51
|
|
|
Kurui Reiten posted:Yes, actually, because the way the nerf worked was "oh poo poo, my little tail jewelry is gone, I am now a weakling". It didn't matter how it was justified later, first impressions are very important, and to a lot of people Gatomon's first impression being "clowns all the heroes", followed by "partner to the girl with the clear magical powers", "lost anti-hero", "cool bro dies for her", and "gets an angelic power up before one-shotting the big bad who had been clowning everyone else the rest of the arc" kind of cemented her in those people's minds as kind of a big deal, and cool as gently caress. After that, we go right to Megas, which were then kind of a big deal, and took a lot of the focus away. People didn't notice Gatomon being not quite as cool as before because they were distracted by the dragon man and the robot wolf being cool. Fandom prioritizing superficial things ("one shots?" she does it with the help of the entire team powering up her signature move, it's more like she "eight shots" him) shouldn't have any influence on the writers' decisions or acting like Adventure managed to do something it didn't. Hell, the more I think about it, the more I realize the Dark Master saga gave nearly everyone else but Hikari a chance to shine, while the most she gets in an arc that should actually be about ehr is Angewomon being a face in the crowd at the end of it. No, the actual character development goes to Taichi, the Dark Master gets to be beaten by WarGreymon, and Hikari and Tailmon get unanswered questions about her being a lamp. Meanwhile, Birdramon shows up and Tailmon doesn't even get to punch a Tankmon. Then? All she gets is a glorified cat fight that serves less to build her and Tailmon up and more to titillate the audience of preteen boys. The claim she's overshadowed in 02 is also erroneous on account Hikari and Tailmon are actually involved in poo poo now. There are more episodes where it's Tailmon actually fighting. Hikari's confidence issues are addressed in "Dagomon's Call" and Silphymon's introduction. We don't get any answers but it's better than being a living plot device. CharlestheHammer posted:Adding is revising yes it does not need to contradict as most retcons don't. By that logic every drat episode of Adventure that reveals previously unknown information about the plot is retconning itself.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 08:01
|
|
|
If you want to be literal sure. But I think a season break is a good cut off point.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 08:03
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:If you want to be literal sure. Still, can you call it a retcon when is part of the setup of the sequel and is elaborated upon as said sequel goes on? Honestly the only retcon I can think in 02 is Gennai going from decrepit old man to Ewan McGregor with no real explanation nor reaction from the kids.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 08:07
|
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:Fandom prioritizing superficial things ("one shots?" she does it with the help of the entire team powering up her signature move, it's more like she "eight shots" him) shouldn't have any influence on the writers' decisions or acting like Adventure managed to do something it didn't. Hell, the more I think about it, the more I realize the Dark Master saga gave nearly everyone else but Hikari a chance to shine, while the most she gets in an arc that should actually be about ehr is Angewomon being a face in the crowd at the end of it. No, the actual character development goes to Taichi, the Dark Master gets to be beaten by WarGreymon, and Hikari and Tailmon get unanswered questions about her being a lamp. Meanwhile, Birdramon shows up and Tailmon doesn't even get to punch a Tankmon. I didn't claim she was overshadowed in 02, you misread. I said she was overshadowed in the fandom's "coolness" attention after the Megas showed up in Adventure. You seem to be trying to play this completely logically, but this is an emotional opinion thing. You can break it down as "no here's why is made sense she was weakened" and "here's other bad showings by her", but in terms of what people are going to remember, what actually stuck in their minds, it was stuff like her first appearance, her unique arc among the others, and the moment she shot the big bad who had been, up until that point, the most successful villain in the series. After that, the first bit of focus she gets in 02 is being nerfed, and that stuck with people. You can keep saying "BUT THE REST OF ADVENTURE DIDN'T SHOW HER AS STRONG AND ALSO SHE GOT AN OK SHOWING IN 02" but for most people, that doesn't matter because those parts didn't make an impression on them. Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Still, can you call it a retcon when is part of the setup of the sequel and is elaborated upon as said sequel goes on? Yes, IE, Leia being Luke's sister.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 08:10
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:If you want to be literal sure. That's pretty arbitrary. In any case, if it doesn't contradict any information, all it does in the end and tell you an assumption was incorrect. Kurui Reiten posted:I didn't claim she was overshadowed in 02, you misread. I said she was overshadowed in the fandom's "coolness" attention after the Megas showed up in Adventure. You seem to be trying to play this completely logically, but this is an emotional opinion thing. You can break it down as "no here's why is made sense she was weakened" and "here's other bad showings by her", but in terms of what people are going to remember, what actually stuck in their minds, it was stuff like her first appearance, her unique arc among the others, and the moment she shot the big bad who had been, up until that point, the most successful villain in the series. After that, the first bit of focus she gets in 02 is being nerfed, and that stuck with people. You can keep saying "BUT THE REST OF ADVENTURE DIDN'T SHOW HER AS STRONG AND ALSO SHE GOT AN OK SHOWING IN 02" but for most people, that doesn't matter because those parts didn't make an impression on them. And... don't you think our level of discussion should be above poo poo like that? Like at what point does this stop being about the show that actually exists and slipping into the same territory as the DBZ fans who act like their adolescent interpretation of power levels means anything? You're not saying anything that disproves what I said about it being about the show everyone believed Adventure was than the show it actually is. quote:Yes, IE, Leia being Luke's sister. That's jarring for a lot of reasons that are similar to the negative reactions to retcons, but that doesn't make it a retcon. Especially since Adventure has points where Angemon is just another Adult when fighting other kinds of Digimon and Tailmon is more or less middle of the road. Star Wars full on implies something different. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 08:17 on May 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 08:11
|
|
|
Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Still, can you call it a retcon when is part of the setup of the sequel and is elaborated upon as said sequel goes on? Yes
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 08:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 7, 2024 20:04 |
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:And... don't you think our level of discussion should be above poo poo like that? Like at what point does this stop being about the show that actually exists and slipping into the same territory as the DBZ fans who act like their adolescent interpretation of power levels means anything? You're not saying anything that disproves what I said about it being about the show everyone believed Adventure was than the show it actually is. No, I don't think it should be, because all I'm doing is explaining to you why people think like that. If people wanted to examine the show completely logically, they would, but those of us into stuff like Digimon are generally here because we saw it when we were kids, and we're here because we have fond memories of it. This is not the newest, hottest anime, or something. This is a legacy series, and those of us here are more or less legacy fans. We could all rewatch the series annually to keep it fresh in our minds, and only have very reasoned and logical debates about whether or not the 02 cast was more technically proficient than the Adventure cast, but for most of us we just see it as a fun show we liked as kids that, honestly, we are way too still attached to. We're all manchildren and womanchildren here, and that means we don't give a poo poo about how reasoned an argument is about how Gatomon wasn't as good as we remember, she got to bop Greymon on the head and had a cool wizard friend who died for her and was an anti-hero who got to be redeemed and shoot a big magic arrow at the bad guy and kill him, and as a kid, that was cool as poo poo.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 08:24
|
|