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Xae posted:And don't feel bad for the Space Wolves. The Sons got tricked and hosed by Chaos into being traitors. Most of them still don't worship Chaos. Wait, what?
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May 12, 2017 14:57
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Wait, what? Wulfen are just Chaos spawn with fur. The Space Wolves think that the "animal spirits" they commune with totally aren't from the Warp. Russ wasn't supposed to attack Magnus. He was supposed to bring him to Terra for Trial. Russ then gets a message from Horus who says "nah man, Ignore what Space Dad said just kill Magnus". Magnus had planned to stand trial for breaking the Golden Throne and accept his punishment. With Horus corrupt and Magnus either dead or driven to Chaos the Webway project was doomed. Xae fucked around with this message at 15:32 on May 12, 2017 |
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May 12, 2017 15:28
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The portrayal of the Corsairs in the Night Lords trilogy is masterfully done. Spoilers to follow for those who haven't read it, and if you haven't, you should go buy it yesterday. It is stated that the Night Lords betrayed the Corsairs in some nebulous, but mundane, way in the past. Possibly they ran away during a fight. Nevertheless, their ship is falling apart and they need repairs, so they head to the Maelstrom. The leader of the Red Corsairs doesn't open fire on them or seek to take their ship, both things he could easily do, because he desires their expertise at infiltration. So he flatters them, cajoles them, offers them a prize or two and repairs their ship, and gives them a part in a truly audacious plot to destroy an entire Chapter of Space Marines in one fell swoop. This comes after grumbling and bitching by the Night Lords that they are tired of losing the Long War and want to be part of something greater than themselves, and here it is! Here is the opportunity they have been waiting for! And yet in their pride, the Night Lords blind themselves to all of it, they end up trading one broken ship for another in the end, and nearly all die, because they can't bear anyone giving them orders or even suggestions if they aren't a Night Lord at heart. It's amazing, it's unspoken, and it fits perfectly with the innate tragedy of the Night Lord legion: they are their own worst enemy.
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May 12, 2017 15:31
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Cooked Auto posted:The last Cain thing released was the audio book "The Devil you know" back in 2014. Which I think was during the time where GW management meddled too much in BL and he got tired of that. Because he's still writing stuff under his real name. I am sorry to hear about this. Cain books are the perfect popcorn books.
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May 12, 2017 15:42
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Xae posted:Wulfen are just Chaos spawn with fur. Wulfen are a genetic mutation. They're space werewolves, not spawn. Spawn are created at the whim of a chaos god, and are totally random (chaotic) creations. The wulfen are a known genetic taint, similar to the BA's Black Rage. You could argue that the original SM geneseed experiment had been tainted by Chaos, and I don't think anyone would argue with you, but the genetic taints aren't directly influenced like spawn are. Xae posted:Russ wasn't supposed to attack Magnus. He was supposed to bring him to Terra for Trial. Russ then gets a message from Horus who says "nah man, Ignore what Space Dad said just kill Magnus". Magnus had planned to stand trial for breaking the Golden Throne and accept his punishment. With Horus corrupt and Magnus either dead or driven to Chaos the Webway project was doomed.
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May 12, 2017 15:42
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berzerkmonkey posted:
Try selling "Oh but I didn't know my priest/governor/mayor was a traitor!" to your local inquisitor and see how far it gets you 
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May 12, 2017 15:45
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Cat Army 
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The Iron Rose posted:Try selling "Oh but I didn't know my priest/governor/mayor was a traitor!" to your local inquisitor and see how far it gets you Counterpoint: Space Marines are not beholden to the Inquisition. Your move sir.
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May 12, 2017 15:50
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Also, this was at a time when there was no Inquisition always scaring people about heresy; heresy was, by contrast, virtually an unknown thing. The only exception, of course, are the two lost legions -- the ones the wolves were asked to destroy last time by their big space dad. So their big space dad's right-hand man saying, "Nah, just do it like last time -- dad says do your thing, and off 'em completely," is completely a trap they could fall for. That said, their communing with "animal spirits" is total hypocrisy, but there ya go.
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May 12, 2017 15:54
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Xae posted:Wulfen are just Chaos spawn with fur. The Wolves commune with animal spirits from the warp? I must have missed that, because that sounds more like the Thousand Sons and their familiars to me. Then again, I've read nothing outside of the HH regarding the Wolves. Also, I was more asking how you mean they wrecked Big Easy's Webway plans, but I'm guessing you mean that Magnus was supposed to sit on the throne in his stead while he kicks rear end and takes names? Because Magnus wrecked the Webway good all by himself.
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May 12, 2017 15:56
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Well that's good to hear about the Corsairs. They should really show up more in the fluff because crazy space pirates who can be diplomatic while still being right bastards is an awesome alternative to Black Legionnaires.
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May 12, 2017 16:58
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The Iron Rose posted:Try selling "Oh but I didn't know my priest/governor/mayor was a traitor!" to your local inquisitor and see how far it gets you Pretty sure the Space Wolves do not have a problem with telling the Inquisition to go gently caress themselves.
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May 12, 2017 17:16
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berzerkmonkey posted:The Thousand Sons willingly continued dealing with magic and the warp after the Emperor strictly forbade it. Their hubris was their downfall, so they brought it upon themselves. Yes, they're a tragic tale (as are all the fallen legions,) but they are directly to blame for their situation. Honestly, I can't even blame them for continuing with it. Lorgar's discussion with Magnus in The First Heretic really sums up the flaws with Big E's approach to dealing with situations. "Do as I say because I said so." Maybe it's the millennial in me, but that just doesn't jive well, especially with your super-created genetic offspring. They all are made in Big E's image, but he doesn't explain the way of the cosmos to them. He doesn't guide them like a good parent should. It basically comes down to, "You are my instruments of war and that's it. Forget your human qualities." Duzzy Funlop posted:The Wolves commune with animal spirits from the warp? I must have missed that, because that sounds more like the Thousand Sons and their familiars to me. The Space Wolves have Rune Priests, which are essentially chaos sorcerers, but they have a different philosophical approach to the "Great Ocean" than the Thousand Sons (though I haven't delved enough into their lore to fully understand what that is yet). I was under the impression that the Wulfen were chaos spawn as well. It seems to be a fault in the gene-seed akin to the Thousand Sons spontaneously mutating. I don't think it necessarily affects psykers only, either. EDIT: Just to be clear, I believe a "fault in the gene-seed" is actually chaos taint in the gene seed, or at least something that makes the gene-seed susceptible to influence by the immaterium. Moose_Knuck fucked around with this message at 18:20 on May 12, 2017 |
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May 12, 2017 18:11
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The Thousand Sons were far from the only Legion to continue using psykers but the other major ones that did so openly (Space Wolves and White Scars) did so within an existing, safe, framework. Both legions came from home worlds that had psykers who had successfully accessed Warp powers in a manner that demonstrably didn't result in Daemons emerging and skullfucking everyone in the material realm. In that sense Russ really doesn't like Magnus' work because it is precisely testing boundaries that Russ sees as inviolable. Screwing around with the Warp outside of tried and true methods gets not only you but likely your whole tribe and possibly planet dead pretty quick. The Sons gently caress up was basically in trying to explore the Warp and deepen their understanding. The Emperor's point in that quote (as far as I can tell without context) is that (spoilered in case people want to avoid a paraphrase of a novel excerpt) the Primarchs know the Warp is dangerous and there are malign entities within it. The fact that Navigators see horrible poo poo all the time and vessels are often torn apart and destroyed is clear evidence and Horus saw members of his own Legion possessed and destroyed by such entities. Thus he feels it should be pretty clear to all of them that there's more to the Warp than just neutral, natural phenomena and when he says to leave it the gently caress alone he has some compelling reasons. While 'do as I say and that's that' runs pretty hollow this might be more akin to a parent telling their kid 'don't touch the stove, it's dangerous!' They're operating at another cognitive level and it's just hard to conceive that the children lack the general knowledge to make real sense of that. I like that theory but I also feel that the writers aren't really able to convey that mode of understanding it. (I can't really see how you write a being that is simply on another cognitive level without treating them as an uncharacterisable black box. Parental figures as god-like and omniscient may be a good approach but it doesn't make for compelling writing). Geneseed mutations: I think the jury is still very much out on why those mutations are there. It could have been Chaos interference when they spirited the Primarchs away but it's just as possible they are imperfections in the Emperor's own work. The Primarchs were a massive, experimental undertaking and it's hardly surprising that some stuff went wrong with them. Although remembering the spiriting away bit, does any reference ever get made to Horus appearing in the gene labs that might show that to have been more than a Chaos vision?
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May 12, 2017 19:06
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MrNemo posted:The Thousand Sons were far from the only Legion to continue using psykers but the other major ones that did so openly (Space Wolves and White Scars) did so within an existing, safe, framework. Isn't the whole thing with the Wolves and psykers that they say that Rune Priests don't use the Warp but instead pull their powers straight from Fenris?
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May 12, 2017 19:25
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MrNemo posted:The Thousand Sons were far from the only Legion to continue using psykers but the other major ones that did so openly (Space Wolves and White Scars) did so within an existing, safe, framework. Both legions came from home worlds that had psykers who had successfully accessed Warp powers in a manner that demonstrably didn't result in Daemons emerging and skullfucking everyone in the material realm. Blood Angels, too. Sanguinius was one of the founders of the Librarians along with Jaghatai and Magnus.
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May 12, 2017 19:32
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Yeah, I really don't think there's anything distinct about the Wolves' rune priests that makes them more like Chaos Sorcerers than their brothers. Everyone's a psyker, and everyone has a different word for it. The wolves got rune priests, the wyrd and their great ocean, the scars got storm seers and spirits, the Sons got their totally-not-demons familiars and enumerations, etc. It's just that the Wolves pretend that their poo poo don't stink.
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May 12, 2017 19:43
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Khizan posted:Pretty sure the Space Wolves do not have a problem with telling the Inquisition to go gently caress themselves. in retrospect this was possibly the worst example I could've chosen 
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May 12, 2017 19:56
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MrNemo posted:
I don't buy the Emp's logic on that one though. Sure the Primarchs are aware that there's some nasty poo poo in the warp, but even with their enhanced cognitive abilities they didn't have the capacity to know if that there were actual demon-gods in the warp actively trying to manipulate material events. This is exactly why Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch to erase the flaw in his legion's gene-seed. He mistakenly thought that there were perfectly benign beings in the warp. Sure, you could make the argument that over the course of the crusade (and during Old Night, yadda yadda), the legions came across cultures that worshiped heretical gods, so they should have been aware that there was something else out there. But it was never explicitly stated that some of them were representatives of the Ruinous Powers. This is what caused Lorgar and the Word Bearers to go on a pilgrimage to find a god to replace the Emp.
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May 12, 2017 20:14
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I think it's more that he trusted his own vat grown creations to listen to him just long enough to get the Webway Project going, but nope. Motherfuckers had to go and gently caress poo poo up thanks to Chaos as they are want to do. The Emperor is human after all and his hubris was just as grand as his plans for humanity.
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May 12, 2017 20:18
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AndyElusive posted:The Emperor is human after all and his hubris was just as grand as his plans for humanity. I think that's really what it comes down to, but the part about the Emperor being human is debatable. He is human in form only, his light-body is easily as psychically powerful as any of the Chaos Gods. Really, that's what makes 40k so infuriating. You have these monstrously powerful beings that physically change the world around them with thought, that supposedly have cognitive abilities beyond belief, and yet they are fundamentally flawed. I guess I just pictured Emp and sons as these Star Trek Vulcan mentality-like dudes on steroids, but in actuality they're just a bunch of big, emotional, killer weenies.
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May 12, 2017 20:34
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Moose_Knuck posted:I guess I just pictured Emp and sons as these Star Trek Vulcan mentality-like dudes on steroids, but in actuality they're just a bunch of big, emotional, killer weenies. Ain't it grand?
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May 12, 2017 20:40
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Moose_Knuck posted:I think that's really what it comes down to, but the part about the Emperor being human is debatable. He is human in form only, his light-body is easily as psychically powerful as any of the Chaos Gods. Really, that's what makes 40k so infuriating. You have these monstrously powerful beings that physically change the world around them with thought, that supposedly have cognitive abilities beyond belief, and yet they are fundamentally flawed. That is also what makes it interesting. They are all still human. Despite the Emperor's teaching about transhuman bullshit they're still all flawed humans. The Emperor is blinded by his ambition and arrogance. His sons are a walking DSMV of Daddy Issues.
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May 12, 2017 20:46
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Moose_Knuck posted:I think that's really what it comes down to, but the part about the Emperor being human is debatable. He is human in form only, his light-body is easily as psychically powerful as any of the Chaos Gods. Really, that's what makes 40k so infuriating. You have these monstrously powerful beings that physically change the world around them with thought, that supposedly have cognitive abilities beyond belief, and yet they are fundamentally flawed. The emperor only thinks he's all that, one of the greatest hooks of 40k to me is that even the emperor was loving with things he didn't fully understand. Whether he was human a gestalt shaman soul or a piece of dark age technology that outlived its masters it was flying by the seat of its pants. The emperor being around guiding humanity always rang hollow to me when we see him digging around the same scraps as the rest of the universe. If he was guiding humanity and not just an opportunist wouldn't he have stashed an stc somewhere.
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May 12, 2017 21:26
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Zasze posted:If he was guiding humanity and not just an opportunist wouldn't he have stashed an stc somewhere. What says he didn't?
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May 12, 2017 23:07
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 ATTENTION PEOPLE WITH PIRATED BL BOOKSIf you find more excerpts like that Perturabo or Guilliman fisting passage, send them my way. I want to read that poo poo on the show!
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May 12, 2017 23:21
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SRM posted:
I suggest you find that unlicensed fan fiction that somehow got published. If you hit the ? On my posts I am sure you will find it (it was call who dares win)
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May 13, 2017 03:16
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the asoif and 40k crossfic is priceless if you havent read it i dont wanna dig out my harddrive does anyone have it
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May 13, 2017 04:53
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SRM posted:
Apparently from checking this out it's the primarch book series (the new ones) that have the hilarious sequences. Regretfully I think Gulliman fisting one was the best, the other stuff I've seen posted as examples is just stupid "no you hang up no you hang up" repeated for half a page.
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May 13, 2017 07:28
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Waroduce posted:the asoif and 40k crossfic is priceless if you havent read it https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f8zAAHhOqBNbDVmfn1_Qz5ysvr0Q8QhhFOQPH_LRgE8
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May 13, 2017 07:30
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I came across a bundle of the latter HH books. Anybody have an opinion on Scars and Vengeful Spirit? Are they worth adding to the to-read list?
Moose_Knuck fucked around with this message at 08:18 on May 13, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 08:13
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The Iron Rose posted:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f8zAAHhOqBNbDVmfn1_Qz5ysvr0Q8QhhFOQPH_LRgE8 Its real good. Everyone should read it.
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May 13, 2017 09:50
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The Iron Rose posted:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f8zAAHhOqBNbDVmfn1_Qz5ysvr0Q8QhhFOQPH_LRgE8 This is 240 pages!?
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May 13, 2017 10:13
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Moose_Knuck posted:I came across a bundle of the latter HH books. Anybody have an opinion on Scars and Vengeful Spirit? Are they worth adding to the to-read list? Pretty good, IMO. I've really enjoyed the White Scars books for what they are. They aren't as good as ADB or Abnett's stuff but they're pretty decent and interesting looks at one of the legions that never gets any love. I don't think I've read Vengeful Spirit yet, however.
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May 13, 2017 10:35
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Syncopated posted:This is 240 pages!? It's only 140,000 words. By no means the longest fanfic I've seen, it'll take you what, 3 hours to read? though certainly an impressive achievement nonetheless.
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May 13, 2017 11:04
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Wasn't bad, the bit with the Orks seemed redundant. I assume the more egregious names were forumites from whatever board it was first posted on.
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May 13, 2017 15:57
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berzerkmonkey posted:The Thousand Sons willingly continued dealing with magic and the warp after the Emperor strictly forbade it. Their hubris was their downfall, so they brought it upon themselves. Yes, they're a tragic tale (as are all the fallen legions,) but they are directly to blame for their situation. What would the 1K Sons be without sorcery? They'd be a worthless legion and they knew it.
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May 13, 2017 17:20
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Xae posted:Wulfen are just Chaos spawn with fur. Interesting quote from Stormcaller: Njal posted:"Njal had seen the world-soul, raging in the heart of darkness. He had heard the low growls in the netherworld, and seen the pairs of eyes glowing in the afterdark. He had felt the power that would consume him in the end, dissipating his soul into the raging tempest that would break at the galaxy's end. Of course he could be wrong, but I guess that might be in there so us nerds can argue about it. quote:Russ wasn't supposed to attack Magnus. He was supposed to bring him to Terra for Trial. Russ then gets a message from Horus who says "nah man, Ignore what Space Dad said just kill Magnus". Magnus had planned to stand trial for breaking the Golden Throne and accept his punishment. With Horus corrupt and Magnus either dead or driven to Chaos the Webway project was doomed. This is what the Emperor told everyone at Nikaea: A Thousand Sons posted:"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." I'd have no problem believing the Warmaster if he said the Emperor wanted the Thousand Sons destroyed.
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May 13, 2017 17:54
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Shroud posted:Interesting quote from Stormcaller: It reeks of Khorne to me, but it is possible that it could be a different type of power. According to one of the 40k wikis, "Many worlds found whirling within the Maelstrom's depths have been tainted by Chaos in some way, while others have been touched by the lapping of stranger tides yet. " While Fenris resides near the Eye of Terror (and not the Maelstrom), it's possible that the energies there could be different from the Warp. On a side note, is anyone else of the opinion that the Imperium will fall unless they give up the whole "kill all aliens" thing and ally with the Eldar? EDIT: Formatting. Moose_Knuck fucked around with this message at 20:41 on May 13, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 20:37
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Moose_Knuck posted:On a side note, is anyone else of the opinion that the Imperium will fall unless they give up whole "kill all aliens" thing and ally with the Eldar? They do that extremely regularly, just never permanently and never every faction of each species.
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May 13, 2017 20:40
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:They do that extremely regularly, just never permanently and never every faction of each species. I understand that it does happen every once in awhile (and it's always awkward and bordering on violent), but I thought the official policy from Big E was to exterminate all xenos? If it was just the Orcs, or just pirate Dark Eldar, or even just Chaos, I believe the Imperium would be able to sustain itself. But with the threat of Chaos AND the Tyrannids, I think the Imperium will have to ally with the Eldar (at least temporarily) because it is a huge threat that affects both races.
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May 13, 2017 20:53
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