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people should learn languages the old-fashioned way: being forced to learn them at swordpoint by whichever multiethnic army has invaded your country this year.
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May 14, 2017 19:50
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I don't think sword-wielding tyrants cared much about what language their plebs spoke until language became associated with all the awful lovely loving Ideas like religion, citizenship, nation etc
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May 14, 2017 20:00
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pleasecallmechrist posted:The one rule that has helped me more than anything else, and taught to me by my wife who speaks 4 is never learn a word and translate it back to your language you don't say Das Hund means dog you have to separate them otherwise you filter through your native language first you see a Hund not a Hund which means a dog I think I sort of understand what you mean but this single sentence paragraph makes next to no sense without punctuation.
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May 14, 2017 20:10
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Punctuation stinks
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May 14, 2017 20:12
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Anyone who claims to have learned multiple languages after the age of 16 or so is either a liar or has a significant over-estimation of their level of comprehension
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May 14, 2017 20:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Anyone who claims to have learned multiple languages after the age of 16 or so is either a liar or has a significant over-estimation of their level of comprehension Why?
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May 14, 2017 20:39
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Anyone who claims to have learned multiple languages after the age of 16 or so is either a liar or has a significant over-estimation of their level of comprehension
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May 14, 2017 20:42
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Ras Het posted:Why? Critical Period Development Once you reach a certain part of your biological development the part of the brain that absorbs language as a process of interpreting reality shuts down. After that point, additional learned languages are developed in a completely different part of the brain. All available research of second language development pretty conclusively shows native-like proficiency in a second language is impossible if the language is learned in adulthood. Skilled and focused communication is possible over years of practice, but that is a single language and takes hours of daily immersion and study to master. To claim the level of proficiency able to appreciate literature in a foreign language in multiple languages if you started in adulthood is solidly impossible. Usually when people say they have learned multiple languages as an adult, they really mean they have a rudimentary understanding of grammar, vocab, and syntax and use a dictionary and a lot of free time to fill in the blanks. Second Language Development Research  EDIT: Interesting anecdote. There are several cases of people who learned a second language as an adult suffering brain damage andlosing their first language functionality while retaining their second language functionality for this reason. Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 20:48 on May 14, 2017 |
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May 14, 2017 20:44
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Mel Mudkiper posted:To claim the level of proficiency able to appreciate literature in a foreign language in multiple languages if you started in adulthood is solidly impossible. nah you can do this. who cares if you can't keep up with a native speaker, you're reading
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May 14, 2017 20:55
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Officer Sandvich posted:nah you can do this. who cares if you can't keep up with a native speaker, you're reading Reading Proust in Native French at a fifth grade level of comprehension is not really reading Proust
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May 14, 2017 20:56
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I know all of that, but I'm sure you also know that the critical period theory in second language acquisition is reaaally controversial - I think most linguists would agree that extraneous modifiers (time invested in learning, nature of input) are either more or at least as important as brain function per se I think you're conflating facts there - it stands by definition that second language speakers don't acquire a native level (the meaning of "native" is significant here - I speak English fully fluently and use it every day but wouldn't claim to have native intuition). That's not really crucial to the critical period theory as usually stated I'm not defending that guy's knowledge of German or Mandarin (and can't say I care about that), but there's a lot of genuine polyglots around, and we all know the single most important factor in language learning: Time Invested (and I know from experience that I have not invested anywhere near enough time in my third and fourth languages)
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May 14, 2017 20:57
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Reading Proust in Native French at a fifth grade level of comprehension is not really reading Proust This seems hugely dismissive of second language speakers in general
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May 14, 2017 20:58
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the critical period hypothesis as it applies to virtually all areas of neurodevelopment is dying under the rising tide of evidence vis a vis adult neuroplasticity, hth
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May 14, 2017 21:08
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Ras Het posted:This seems hugely dismissive of second language speakers in general Not so much dismissive as it is an honest assessment of the realities of high level academic reading if you are an adult second language learner. Language is not a tool for expressing ideas, language is the system through which your brain interprets reality. Even if you know a lot of words and grammar, being an effective reader of a second language also means engaging with the unique rhetorical constructions of the language and an understanding of its inherent construction of perceived reality. Yes, with a lot of time you can be very good at one or two languages if you start as an adult. Its how I make my money. But we are talking years of dedication and constant study. And most importantly, it also requires constant and focused guidance from a proficienct user of the language. The myth of the intellectual polyglot who is able to master tons of languages as an adult is just that, a myth. Its also a dangerous idea that a lot of adult second language learners struggle with. Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 21:12 on May 14, 2017 |
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May 14, 2017 21:09
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Dunno mate, that seems like a weird point to make. Billions of people around the world are bilingual by necessity (and have always been - think of a Medieval scholar writing fine Latin, probably his third language), and this talk of "fifth grade level" doesn't seem productive. Like, you're not 11 years old even if your French is poor, and the actual (theoretical) physiological limits to your proficiency are so remote that you shouldn't care about them Also, this Mel Mudkiper posted:Language is not a tool for expressing ideas, language is the system through which your brain interprets reality. Even if you know a lot of words and grammar, being an effective reader of a second language also means engaging with the unique rhetorical constructions of the language and an understanding of its inherent construction of perceived reality. is a sloppy metaphor at best, word salad at worst
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May 14, 2017 21:17
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mate i'm telling you, critical period hypothesis is controversial at its best and applying it to secondary language acquisition is even less widely accepted here's an example of the kind of thing the literature has been saying lately quote:This reanalysis reveals that the specific age patterns predicted by the cph are not cross-linguistically robust. Applying the principle of parsimony, it is concluded that age patterns in second language acquisition are not governed by a critical period
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May 14, 2017 21:19
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chernobyl kinsman posted:mate i'm telling you, critical period hypothesis is controversial at its best and applying it to secondary language acquisition is even less widely accepted Did you seriously link a PLoS One article EDIT: Also to avoid being dismissive, there is a difference between Critical Period Hypothesis theory in general, in second language development in general, and in reading comprehension. Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 21:29 on May 14, 2017 |
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May 14, 2017 21:25
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I was not aware of all this psychological evidence I'm going to stop working on the language I've been learning
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May 14, 2017 22:16
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Noted failure at learning the English language successfully Joseph Conrad
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May 14, 2017 22:29
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Officer Sandvich posted:I was not aware of all this psychological evidence I'm going to stop working on the language I've been learning That seems an aggressively obtuse conclusion to draw
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May 14, 2017 22:33
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i don't know much about psychology or what have you, but i think we can all agree that english monoglots should perish in cleansing fire
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May 14, 2017 22:49
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Mel Mudkiper posted:To claim the level of proficiency able to appreciate literature in a foreign language in multiple languages if you started in adulthood is solidly impossible. Nonsense. I can appreciate literature in the languages I learned as an adult just fine. Yeah I can tell there's a difference between the languages I learned as a kid and the ones I learned later on. The ones I learned as an adult come to me a bit less smoothly, I have to think more and eventually it tires me out a bit to speak in them, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a book written in them. It's more difficult, but no more than that.
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May 14, 2017 23:00
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Anyone who claims to have learned multiple languages after the age of 16 or so is either a liar or has a significant over-estimation of their level of comprehension Maybe if you're an idiot.
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May 14, 2017 23:10
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Tree Goat posted:people should learn languages the old-fashioned way: being forced to learn them at swordpoint by whichever multiethnic army has invaded your country this year. 
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May 14, 2017 23:11
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What languages do you speak, Mel?
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May 14, 2017 23:25
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Ras Het posted:On the human level, an educated society means nothing but tormenting the young: when they should be lazing in the sun, rowing the lakes picking waterlilies, watching the cranes head south over the lingonberry covered hills, hiking the snowy backlands, singing and making love, they are put in schools and colleges to learn things we mostly have no reason to know. I think Bernhard agrees "The activity that goes on in schools, and especially in secondary schools, consists of constantly cramming the pupil full of putrid, useless knowledge and so turning his whole nature into the antithesis of all that is natural. The result is that whenever we have dealings with the products of such schools, we find ourselves dealing with unnatural people, whose real nature the schools have managed to destroy. Secondary schools, and, above all, grammar schools, serve only to putrefy human nature, and it is time we considered abolishing these centres of putrefaction, as in fact they should be, because it has long been obvious that they are nothing but centres for the putrefaction of human nature. They deserve to be abolished. The world would be better off if all these so-called middle schools, grammar schools, secondary schools, and so on were abolished and we were to confine education to elementary schools and universities. For elementary schools are not destructive, they do not destroy anything in a young person's nature; and universities are there for those who suited to the pursuit of learning and would be equipped fora higher education even without having attended a secondary school. Secondary schools, on the other hand, should be abolished because they bring inevitable ruin upon a large proportion of the young. Our educational system has become sick over the centuries, and the young who are forced into it are infected and become sick in their millions, with no prospect of a cure. If society wishes to change, it must change its educational system, because if it does not change, if it does not impose some restriction on itself and acquiesce to a large extent in its own abolition, it will assuredly be at an end. As for the educational system, it must be changed fundamentally. Changing a bit here and a bit there is not enough. Everything should be changed - unless we want to see the earth populated solely by unnatural people who have been destroyed through the wilful flouting of nature. And the first institutions to be abolished should be the secondary schools, in which millions of young people are placed every year to face sickness and annihilation."
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May 15, 2017 02:22
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I'd like to get more fluent in Spanish since it's the most practical for me and I can easily pick out a bunch of great writers I could read and purchase easily. But if I were to try and learn another language for the literature, what would be the most rewarding? Italian? French? Russian? Other?
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May 15, 2017 04:24
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The Belgian posted:What languages do you speak, Mel? he speaks English and Spanish (or at least reads in Spanish) I read the entirety of Wolf in White Van by John Darnielle today. Obviously if I read a book in one day, practically in one sitting, then I liked it well enough, but my liking extends almost entirely to the first half. Ultimately I feel like the book was a massive waste of time. Shame, too, because the first half set up a lot of interesting stuff that I don't think played out to my liking. Darnielle is just too obviously a novice fiction writer who wasn't ready to be published; his use of the first person and extensive out-of-scene narration are, when combined, hallmarks of amateur writing. I am not prejudiced against first person in itself, but good writing uses scenes, and Wolf in White Van was a lot of telling with not enough showing. Not enough concrete scenes where the reader is able to infer about the character from carefully chosen details. Instead, a good portion of the book is the narrator telling the reader how he lives, what he does from day to day, etc. Big let down
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May 15, 2017 04:59
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Franchescanado posted:I'd like to get more fluent in Spanish since it's the most practical for me and I can easily pick out a bunch of great writers I could read and purchase easily. But if I were to try and learn another language for the literature, what would be the most rewarding? Italian? French? Russian? Other? Russian bc you will be able to excel in our new government
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May 15, 2017 04:59
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Franchescanado posted:I'd like to get more fluent in Spanish since it's the most practical for me and I can easily pick out a bunch of great writers I could read and purchase easily. But if I were to try and learn another language for the literature, what would be the most rewarding? Italian? French? Russian? Other? Most rewarding? Prob Russian, maybe Arabic or Chinese, maybe some other Far East languages b/c less gets translated from those, and they produce a lot of stuff, some of which might be good. Although there are some publishing houses in the UK/US sfounded by Arabs who do bring out a decent amount from Middle East. But you're looking at a huge time investment to get decent fluency. Effort/reward ratio is a something else entirely. I'd say French, if you know Spanish well, or German if not. A lot gets translated from those two, however, and the quality of work tends to be decently high, I think. and as somebody who works with translators regularly, this is a good lol quote:To claim the level of proficiency able to appreciate literature in a foreign language in multiple languages if you started in adulthood is solidly impossible.
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May 15, 2017 08:06
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drat Mel Mudkiper will never recover from this thorough roasting maybe David Vann is complete shite afterall
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May 15, 2017 09:21
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Or perhaps David Vann is good and I am right hmmmmmmmmmmm
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May 15, 2017 13:24
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David Vann is good, but I don't have an opinion on secondary languages and neuroplasticity.
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May 15, 2017 14:56
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ive been playing the new Deus Ex a lot lately and theres an entire neuroplasticity macguffin so id say im basically an expert
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May 15, 2017 16:21
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May 15, 2017 21:04
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I'm a neuroscientist and although this stuff isn't at all my area I just want you to know I hate you all, just as I do every time people on the internet make grand sweeping statements about How The Brain Works based on a wikipedia article they once read, a single hastily googled citation backing them up and a couple of impressive sounding words like neuroplasticity (wow). How you feel when someone comes into the thread arguing that George R R Martin is clearly real literature and how can you say Kafka is "better" don't you know art is subjective, that is how I feel now. For real though everyone I know with English as a second language, even if they're completely fluent and make feel like a pathetic uncultured monoglot*, it's not the same as a native speaker. Reading something serious must be a completely different experience *because I am
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May 15, 2017 21:57
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Magnus Manfist posted:I'm a neuroscientist and although this stuff isn't at all my area I just want you to know I hate you all, just as I do every time people on the internet make grand sweeping statements about How The Brain Works based on a wikipedia article they once read, a single hastily googled citation backing them up and a couple of impressive sounding words like neuroplasticity (wow). How you feel when someone comes into the thread arguing that George R R Martin is clearly real literature and how can you say Kafka is "better" don't you know art is subjective, that is how I feel now. It's not really. English is my second language, how do you imagine it's different?
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May 15, 2017 22:02
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I was going to zing you all with Nabokov but turns out he spoke English before he spoke Russian because his family was full of anglophiles
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May 15, 2017 22:14
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Look here I'm a neuroscientist and here's my anecdote. It's a neuroscientist anecdote, made by me, a neuroscientist, and that's how you know it's true.
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May 15, 2017 22:21
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Have you ever heard a foreign person speak they sound ridiculous. Imagine reading in that stupid accent, it can't be done.
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May 15, 2017 22:30
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