Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

Nation states are pretty new all over the world really if you want to look at it in a historical context. You had countries and states with borders roughly corresponding to the modern nation states in Europe for quite some time but those borders usually weren't that well defined and the culture or nationality of these states tended to be quite diverse, particularly in the border regions. Nationalism really is only around as old as the French Revolution and didn't really become a huge thing in Europe until the early to mid-19th century, and that's when you start to see countries define themselves more by nationality and policies and such are put in place to synthesize and homogenize a unitary national culture (especially in many of the younger countries).

Also when people speak about huge multi-cultural empires it is important to remember that we are talking about pre-modern or early modern states which were nowhere near as centralized, organized or powerful as any modern nation state. People in the Middle East may have lived under the rule of the Ottomans for 500 years, but it is important to remember that for most, maybe all, of these people existence was decidedly local as was government when or if it made an impact on their lives.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 09:29

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# ? Jun 15, 2024 17:19

Duckbox: Sep 7, 2007

Yeah, I don't have a particularly rosy view of the Ottomans, their reign started in conquest and repression, ended in genocide and ethnic strife, and was mind-bogglingly dysfunctional for most of the time in between. Of course, the pre-Ottoman period was loving horrific, so they'll always look good in comparison. Likewise, the peace of the Islamic Golden Age has always been more myth than reality. Any real unity in the Muslim world died when the Ummayads ran off to Spain (if not well before) and there were three distinct Caliphates (one of them Shia) and numerous independent and quasi-independent feudal states by the time of the Crusades. Then the Turks, the Mongols, and the Black Death came in to just keep making things worse, of course.

What I find most interesting about the Medieval Middle East is the extent to which states were vaguely defined with shifting boundaries and numerous local warlords, nobles, magnates, and holy men effectively carving out little domains for themselves within imperial frameworks that ranged from firm to loose to nonexistent and just how often that arrangement... sort of worked. Even the Ottomans basically kept a lot of the same systems of local control, just with the Turkish nobility grafted on in most of the major centers. I don't think the Arab world really needs a Caliph or similar figure to keep everyone from killing each other, and I definitely don't think it benefits from getting bossed around by outside empires, but I do think that "we're all in the same boat" mindset is important and something the region clearly has a yearning for. Both the secular pan-arabists and the Islamists (plus Erdogan's weird neo-Ottoman deal) have established their identities around nostalgia for a half-imaginary past where "their people" weren't divided by borders, pushed around by Europeans, or played against each other by callow nationalists. I think so many states in the modern Middle East have failed because the nationalist identities of their dictators have run directly contrary to that deep seated yearning for cultural unity.

If I had to write the hopeful future version of the Middle East, it would be one where maybe the borders had changed, maybe they hadn't, but it wouldn't matter as much because local autonomy, open societies, and regional cooperation or confederation had made militarized borders obsolete. Also, I'd have a pony.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 12:26

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Duckbag posted:

If I had to write the hopeful future version of the Middle East, it would be one where maybe the borders had changed, maybe they hadn't, but it wouldn't matter as much because local autonomy, open societies, and regional cooperation or confederation had made militarized borders obsolete. Also, I'd have a pony.

Looking at China and the EU it's not impossible, it just requires the right circumstances and a lot of blood for the blood god.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 12:51

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Duckbag posted:

If I had to write the hopeful future version of the Middle East, it would be one where maybe the borders had changed, maybe they hadn't, but it wouldn't matter as much because local autonomy, open societies, and regional cooperation or confederation had made militarized borders obsolete. Also, I'd have a pony.

So basically you're in favor of democratic confederalism?

# ? Jun 4, 2017 13:40

ModernMajorGeneral: Jun 25, 2010

MiddleOne posted:

Looking at China and the EU it's not impossible, it just requires the right circumstances and a lot of blood for the blood god.

I'm not sure any of the words 'open society that has demilitarised its borders through regional cooperation' apply to China.

I guess you could argue that some of its borders are less militarised now than they were 40 years ago?

# ? Jun 4, 2017 17:15

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

ModernMajorGeneral posted:

I'm not sure any of the words 'open society that has demilitarised its borders through regional cooperation' apply to China.

I guess you could argue that some of its borders are less militarised now than they were 40 years ago?

Uh, you're forgetting about world war 1 and 2. It didn't take nothing for the EU to take shape. I mean I guess you're emphasizing the willing part here? Because there wouldn't have been a will if not for all of the preceding bloodshed and the common threat of the USSR.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 17:19

3peat: May 6, 2010

Footage from liberated Mansoura
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFjBH248q4I

edit: another video from Mansoura, focusing on the YPJ fighters (there seem to be a lot of them)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcR9hUzSpJ8

3peat fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jun 4, 2017

# ? Jun 4, 2017 17:24

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

Anyone know what the ratio of male/female in front line fighters for YPG/YPJ is?

# ? Jun 4, 2017 18:24

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

lollontee posted:

Anyone know what the ratio of male/female in front line fighters for YPG/YPJ is?

I would say that good numbers for this are hard to find. But if you want a very quick and rough estimate you could start by just looking at the listed strength of the YPG and YPJ. Which gives 50,000 for the YPG and 24,000 for the YPJ. That's according to wikipedia, which also in another article states 36,000 YPG and 24,000 YPJ in an article on the SDF, saying these are May 2017 numbers. The article on the SDF also gives a number of 20,000 non-Kurdish SDF fighters (which I am going to assume are mostly men). As well as a total strength of 50 000 - 80 000. So I guess from that you can say that there are between 36 000 - 46 000 YPG fighters, 24 000 YPJ and appromximately 20 000 non-Kurd SDF.

Assuming all of these are frontline fighters, the male to female ration then is somewhere between 3-to-2 and approximately 2-to-1 if you discount the non-Kurd SDF. I would venture forth a guess that not all this strength is frontiline fighters and that the percentage of fighters employed in the rear for policing and other non-frontline duties is higher for the YPJ compared to the YPG (because such a trend seems to be common in military forces which contain a large number of women).

# ? Jun 4, 2017 18:49

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

Randarkman posted:

Assuming all of these are frontline fighters

That's sort of the thing, they most certainly are not. It probably includes support and political personel, and also makes no difference between them. Not to knock on support in any way, but if YPJ in practice doesn't follow the same ratio of support-to-fighter as YPG, the ratios on the front line can't be deduced just by nominal membership count in the organisations.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 19:01

CrazyLoon: Aug 10, 2015; "..."

It would deffo be immensely interesting to see the specifics of it. Right now, they're probably one of a handful, if not the only, all-women's units engaged in a conflict where every set of hands is needed and which is of a representative sample. So to see the specifics on, if the report on American Special Forces praise is correct, what constitutes such an actually efficient unit would certainly do a lot to dispel a lot of misconceptions as to this topic, both the sexist ones as well as those utterly divorced from reality.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 19:33

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

lollontee posted:

That's sort of the thing, they most certainly are not. It probably includes support and political personel, and also makes no difference between them. Not to knock on support in any way, but if YPJ in practice doesn't follow the same ratio of support-to-fighter as YPG, the ratios on the front line can't be deduced just by nominal membership count in the organisations.

If the ratio of frontline fighters to support are roughly the same for YPG and YPJ then listed strength is enough to work out the ratio at the frontline though. I have a suspicion that this is not the case, but can't really look any more into this. You could also maybe get some more info by looking up specific operations and such and see if there is anything like an order of battle available for the SDF forces, that might say something more. Though it often seems like those list YPG/YPJ strength together.

CrazyLoon posted:

It would deffo be immensely interesting to see the specifics of it. Right now, they're probably one of a handful, if not the only, all-women's units engaged in a conflict where every set of hands is needed and which is of a representative sample.

Somewhat related to this "every set of hands needed", it is interesting to note that according to most estimates it seems that the YPG and SDF easily outnumber ISIS by quite a comfortable margin, hell the YPJ alone seems to be larger than total estimated ISIS strength. Estimates seem to be 15 000 - 20 000 total, with 5 000 defending Raqqa, I wonder how many of the remainder are in Mosul and then how many are facing the SAA.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 19:54

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

Randarkman posted:

see if there is anything like an order of battle available for the SDF forces, that might say something more.

Good idea, but I got no idea where to get that info. This thread is my primary source for Syria news anyway.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 19:56

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

This dead gay comedy subforum is my primary source on the Syrian civil war.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 19:56

Wirth1000: May 12, 2010; #essereFerrari

lollontee posted:

This dead gay comedy subforum is my primary source on the Syrian civil war.

This thread serves as a pretty decent RSS feed.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 20:01

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

I'll make the QCS request threAD for RSS integration.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 20:04

OctaMurk: Jun 21, 2013

Randarkman posted:

If the ratio of frontline fighters to support are roughly the same for YPG and YPJ then listed strength is enough to work out the ratio at the frontline though. I have a suspicion that this is not the case, but can't really look any more into this. You could also maybe get some more info by looking up specific operations and such and see if there is anything like an order of battle available for the SDF forces, that might say something more. Though it often seems like those list YPG/YPJ strength together.

Somewhat related to this "every set of hands needed", it is interesting to note that according to most estimates it seems that the YPG and SDF easily outnumber ISIS by quite a comfortable margin, hell the YPJ alone seems to be larger than total estimated ISIS strength. Estimates seem to be 15 000 - 20 000 total, with 5 000 defending Raqqa, I wonder how many of the remainder are in Mosul and then how many are facing the SAA.

Just because the YPG has so many thousands of troops doesnt mean all are oriented towards Raqqa or are combatants, and 5000 defenders is likely the number of combatants only excluding support and auxiliaries.

Not to mention, I doubt the SDF's logistical ability to simultaneously field all 50,000+ soldiers.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 20:22

3peat: May 6, 2010

Regarding women in YPG/J, here's some posts by PKK1978, an YPG fighter who posts in the SCW subreddit

quote:

If men think around the world women cannot fight and cannot lead, they should see this picture.

On the left is Tolen Xwin Gulan and on the right is Sozdar Derik. The greatest military partnership in the history of Syria. Every major operation in Rojava's history of the last two years has been planned and lead by these two. From the operation to create the Ezidi corridor, the liberation of Sexmeqsud‎, Serikani, Telkocer, Kobani, Tel Nasr, Tel Barak, Tel Temir, Tel Hamis, al-Hawl, Seddade, Manbic, and now Raqqa.

Hopefully people here who sit behind their computers and try to be generals will know that two women have lead the YPG and YPJ and now the QSD have led it from the brink of defeat to victory.

They act with empathy, we compassion, and understanding, they have the will for victory.

I sometimes just go over this forums and see a lot of young men thinking they are heroes. A male photographer has a link and explains the situation, a male ex. American army is linked and has an opinion, or some regime or FSA-supporting internet person who has an opinion, but they all fail to understand is that this is a foremost a woman's revolution. All of these men on reddit make predictions and are usually wrong. They make predictions because if they do not they seem like they have nothing to say. Just make less predictions and begin learning about what is going on instead of telling everyone you can foresaw things. The very few people can foresee things are people like these two very smart women who are leading us.

Women are very over-represented in the YPG/SDF command structure, and that's probably because thay join the party (PYD/PKK/PJAK) when they're younger, and the party raises and educates them, including education in military/guerilla tactics

quote:

yes that is bendava taqba and the commander there is very smart, very experienced. She is only 28 but she joined the party when she was 12.

happy to see a documentary that shows the character of the party... arabs and kurds... led by a woman
-----------------
Well if you watch the video you will notice the one who joined at 10 seems pretty smart. In the party they will learn at least 3 languages, they will learn how to read and write, basic math, history, geography... so on.

People do not know this but there is like a secondary school in Qandil. It is for people her age getting their education. It is also to make sure they have the skills to survive in the party (do not let people boss them around and to learn discipline and how to build things, live on their own, survive on the nature).
-----------------
I think you have to understand at 12-15 most women are forced to marry at 15 or 16 and with this knowledge they usually run away and in this case they join the party. However, if they say their family are patriots (welatparez) then it means that they told their family they had no interest in marrying and would join the party instead. It is the duty of the welatparez family to let the daughter join the party... but in almost all cases she is never allowed back home. It is the end of their relationship. She moves into a new family -- the party.

Another one is whole families joined the party. I know one family, the whole family, almost twenty people, joined the party in 2000 or so. A few of them left the party and then had kids, so now you can see the nephews and nieces in in the party. There are parts of the PKK where is everyone is the 1st 2nd or 3rd cousin of someone. For example, in Kobani, a lot of the people coming to fight asked to go because their cousin was fighting there, and so you would have a unit with the commander was an uncle, there was niece who was a tim commander, he had two cousins beneath him as fighters, and so on. Very normal.

It is one of the reasons why the party fights so much better than arabs. Not fighting for family, but because of family. It is also why the promotion system is very different. According to the rules, although in battle it is different, no commander of a cephe can promote a tabur commander just at a second. It needs a committee. This is stop any possiblity that the cephe commander, who might be the person who might be the tabur commander's 2nd cousin, or from the same city, or same tribe, or same ethnic group (Alevi for example) showing him or her special looking. For more senior positions this, even during the battle, is followed and people with close connections with each other are looked upon poorly for promotion in a place where his relative is senior in.

So family is very important in the party and women join very young, but also it is not such a big problem, because also their brother joins, or their two cousins join, and so the family isn't just letting her join, in some cities almost everyone has kids who joined the party.

For example, in Lice, near Amed, if you go there you will not see too many young men and women because they have all joined the party... thousands of them.

(those comments were related to this french piece about the Tabqa offensive http://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/pr...ue_2064999.html)

If you go through his posting history here https://www.reddit.com/user/pkk1978 he has a lot of interesting posts, but also hilarious stuff like

quote:

the commander of liwa umana al-raqqa is the dumbest, fattest arab I have ever met in my life.

I have never heard someone speak to rudely into their phone than him.

I hope once he dies a peaceful death he burns in the flames of hell. Of course, I cannot tell him this to his face. He is not a bad man, he is just a very, very annoying man. The most annoying man God ever created.

His family now lives Tel Abyad and I think he spends more time going there and arguing with his wife than he does in the frontline.

I know this because I had to be with him for 2 days. These were two days worst than the days I spent in the mountains without a coat.

quote:

western puts on Jaysh al-Ḥurr photo and now calls himself expert. Never been to Syria. Probably does not speak Arabic.

# ? Jun 4, 2017 22:26

Saladin Rising: Nov 12, 2016; When there is no real hope we must
mint our own. If the coin be
counterfeit it may still be passed.

E: 3peat's post above mine is very good. PKK1978 is a very interesting on-the-ground source.

The noose tightens:
https://twitter.com/CivilWarMap/status/871441759884148741

quote:

SDF captured Khatuniyah, Hawi Hawa, Mazraat Rabia and Mazraat Qahtaniyah. 6 villages besieged - west of #Raqqa

https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/6f6tlz/assassination_on_liwa_altahrir_sdf_commander_has/
Assassination on Liwa al-Tahrir (SDF) commander has failed (June 2)
No word on who tried to do it.

The US is ~~lying out our asses~~ placating Turkey again:
http://aranews.net/2017/06/us-reassures-turkey-we-will-keep-account-of-weapons-provided-to-syrian-kurds/

quote:

The US-led coalition against ISIS will keep account of every single weapon supplied to the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) in order to allay Turkish concerns, a coalition spokesman said.

�All of the elements of the SDF who are receiving equipment must pass our vetting process. They will also make an obligation and sign to fight only ISIS and to uphold the laws of armed conflict,� US Army Colonel Ryan Dillon said.

�The SDF commanders will sign for, by serial number, all the equipment that we are giving and we�ll maintain that in our database. And we will share that information with allies to the north who are concerned about the weapons that we are providing,� he said, with reference to NATO-ally Turkey.

�We will have advisors as well that are going to be with our SDF elements. And as much as they can, they will be with them as they are advising them in the seizure of Raqqa. And any misuse that does not go towards fighting ISIS or is found used elsewhere, could potentially curtail any further support on what we may give to them in the future,� the coalition spokesman said.

The Turkish government has strongly objected the arming of the Kurds in Syria. However, since the Kurds are the only force capable of fighting ISIS in Raqqa, the Trump administration decided to continue to support them.

Yep, we're totally gonna keep track of every single weapon. Just like the UK's gonna pay us back for Lend-Lease any day now.

Saladin Rising fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jun 4, 2017

# ? Jun 4, 2017 22:26

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!

https://mobile.twitter.com/W7VOA/status/871558982971928577

Bahrain has followed Saudi Arabia's lead.
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/gulf/2017/06/05/Bahrain-announces-it-is-cutting-ties-with-Qatar.html

quote:

Bahrain has announced it is cutting diplomatic ties with Qatar, according to a statement carried on Bahrain News Agency.

The statement on Monday morning said Bahrain decided to sever ties with its neighbor �on the insistence of the State of Qatar to continue destabilizing the security and stability of the Kingdom of Bahrain and to intervene in its affairs�.

The statement also said Qatar�s incitement of the media and supporting of terrorist activities and financing groups linked to Iran were reasons behind the decision.

�(Qatar has) spread chaos in Bahrain in flagrant violation of all agreements and covenants and principles of international law Without regard to values, law or morals or consideration of the principles of good neighborliness or commitment to the constants of Gulf relations and the denial of all previous commitments,� the statement read.

Qatari citizens have 14 days to leave Bahraini territories while Qatari diplomats were given 48 hours to leave the country after being expelled.

Meanwhile, Bahrain has closed both air and sea borders with Qatar.

WaPo posted an explainer on Qatar a few days ago.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/01/whats-going-on-with-qatar/

Edit:
https://mobile.twitter.com/W7VOA/status/871562056259993600
https://mobile.twitter.com/AlArabiya_Eng/status/871562443532771328
:stare:

Gobbeldygook fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Jun 5, 2017

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:02

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

What the gently caress is going on?!?! What's Happening with Qatar so that things get THIS bad?! holy gently caress this is either a giant attempt at a palace coup in Qatar or Doha mustve done something to REALLY piss off the other royals.

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:08

Viva Miriya: Jan 9, 2007

I dunno but WU TANG!!!

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:09

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

Al-Saqr posted:

What the gently caress is going on?!?! What's Happening with Qatar so that things get THIS bad?! holy gently caress this is either a giant attempt at a palace coup in Qatar or Doha mustve done something to REALLY piss off the other royals.

It's probably literally petty infighting and dick waving over prestige between royal families. Wasn't there a tussle between whose allied faction got to control Egypt post Mubarak's overthrow?

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:12

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

this is a giant giant incident, like, holy cow I've never seen such a suddent and inexplainable breakdown in gulf relations like this, I wish there was some clue as to what really happened!

tekz posted:

It's probably literally petty infighting and dick waving over prestige between royal families. Wasn't there a tussle between whose allied faction got to control Egypt post Mubarak's overthrow?

No, this is different, like a complete total and public breakdown like this is unprecedented, the last time a massive cutoff of a gulf country happened was when Iraq invaded Kuwait. something big is going on, usually it's less public and more hidden.

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:12

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Now Egypt, which is essentially a slave state, has followed suit with their masters in the gulf and cut off relations with Qatar.

some clues are appearing, apparently some leaks have happened with the private communications of the Emirati ambassador to the U.S. that revealed some embarrassing stuff and they're blaming Qatar for it? That's so far what might explain it.

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:18

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

Al-Saqr posted:

Now Egypt, which is essentially a slave state, has followed suit with their masters in the gulf and cut off relations with Qatar.

some clues are appearing, apparently some leaks have happened with the private communications of the Emirati ambassador to the U.S. that revealed some embarrassing stuff and they're blaming Qatar for it? That's so far what might explain it.

Linkkk

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:19

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

There's zero chance of this escalating and they just want to ostracize Qatar, right? I can't imagine the Qatari military is particularly potent, but with Saudi forces getting their asses handed to them by Houthi guerillas, surely they know better than to jump into another conflict. That WaPo article didn't really go at all into the why of the matter...

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:20

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Cugel the Clever posted:

There's zero chance of this escalating and they just want to ostracize Qatar, right? I can't imagine the Qatari military is particularly potent, but with Saudi forces getting their asses handed to them by Houthi guerillas, surely they know better than to jump into another conflict. That WaPo article didn't really go at all into the why of the matter...

let's not go too crazy here, there's no threat of war, but essentially the entire GCC and Egypt have ceased all relations with Qatar. it's insane.

some english links:-

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2017/06/media-attacks-qatar-170604190713001.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/06/analysts-leaks-threaten-emirati-diplomacy-170604112335740.html

Holy poo poo it's even ALL AIRSPACE is blocked they'd have to fly civilians planes outside of GCC airspace.

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:23

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

Is AJ a trustworthy source on this? WaPo sez the propaganda push looks to be partly aimed at a US audience.

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:25

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Discendo Vox posted:

Is AJ a trustworthy source on this? WaPo sez the propaganda push looks to be partly aimed at a US audience.

I dont know, We're in a north korean levels of media control how the gently caress am I going to figure out what's going on?!

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:26

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Guess it's time for the Qataris to start funding Assad. :itshappening:

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:31

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

details about the hacked emails

https://theintercept.com/2017/06/03/hacked-emails-show-top-uae-diplomat-coordinating-with-pro-israel-neocon-think-tank-against-iran/

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:31

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

Intercept enabling Russian foreign policy. Some things never change.

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:33

ass struggle: Dec 25, 2012; by Athanatos

Randarkman posted:

Nation states are pretty new all over the world really if you want to look at it in a historical context. You had countries and states with borders roughly corresponding to the modern nation states in Europe for quite some time but those borders usually weren't that well defined and the culture or nationality of these states tended to be quite diverse, particularly in the border regions. Nationalism really is only around as old as the French Revolution and didn't really become a huge thing in Europe until the early to mid-19th century, and that's when you start to see countries define themselves more by nationality and policies and such are put in place to synthesize and homogenize a unitary national culture (especially in many of the younger countries).

Also when people speak about huge multi-cultural empires it is important to remember that we are talking about pre-modern or early modern states which were nowhere near as centralized, organized or powerful as any modern nation state. People in the Middle East may have lived under the rule of the Ottomans for 500 years, but it is important to remember that for most, maybe all, of these people existence was decidedly local as was government when or if it made an impact on their lives.

I long for the day that the last flag can be burned. That a new nation of all humanity can emerge from the ashes of the destruction of the old.

A nationstate is nothing but a confederation of sociopaths

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:37

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

Discendo Vox posted:

Intercept enabling Russian foreign policy. Some things never change.

More emails of powerful people should be leaked especially if they make morons like you cry, it's really cool to see what's going on behind the scenes.

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:40

axeil: Feb 14, 2006

rear end struggle posted:

I long for the day that the last flag can be burned. That a new nation of all humanity can emerge from the ashes of the destruction of the old.

A nationstate is nothing but a confederation of sociopaths

I've been reading a book on the history of nuclear weapons (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C5R7F8G/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) and it's fascinating that we almost had a true World Congress/World Government. Around 60% of the US was in favor of it in 1946, but it hinged on giving the World Congress/UN control of all nuclear weapons.

Then the Soviets took control in Poland and the US realized they couldn't win a land war with the USSR and needed their nukes and welp, now we're here

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:45

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

aljazeera the channels themselves are dead silent on the topic, as if nothings happening.

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:46

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

Al-Saqr posted:

details about the hacked emails

https://theintercept.com/2017/06/03/hacked-emails-show-top-uae-diplomat-coordinating-with-pro-israel-neocon-think-tank-against-iran/

quote:

Hannah and Otaiba are frequently chummy in the exchanges. On August 16 of last year, Hannah sent Otaiba an article claiming that the UAE and FDD were both responsible for the brief military coup in Turkey. �Honored that we�re in your company,� Hannah wrote to Otaiba.

what the gently caress ?

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:46

ass struggle: Dec 25, 2012; by Athanatos

axeil posted:

I've been reading a book on the history of nuclear weapons (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C5R7F8G/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) and it's fascinating that we almost had a true World Congress/World Government. Around 60% of the US was in favor of it in 1946, but it hinged on giving the World Congress/UN control of all nuclear weapons.

Then the Soviets took control in Poland and the US realized they couldn't win a land war with the USSR and needed their nukes and welp, now we're here

and now people see a "one world government" as some evil conspiracy.

WW2 could have been the end of war, WW1 should have been, but instead, we've put ourselves back to the path to destruction. All because of a few mens greed.

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:49

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 15, 2024 17:19

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

as we all know, this is all about terrorism:-

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40155829

# ? Jun 5, 2017 04:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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