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MariusLecter posted:The Emperor being an avatar of toxic masculinity never occurred to anyone? Malacdor wanted female primarchs for this reason canonly Im pretty sure.
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Jun 8, 2017 19:47
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Telsa Cola posted:Malacdor wanted female primarchs for this reason canonly Im pretty sure. I think specifically that there'd be less competition and infighting between them, but yeah. Switching subjects a bit, but has there been much interaction between Roboute and Custodes now that he's back? I haven't read any of the books.
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Jun 8, 2017 19:51
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Meridian posted:I think specifically that there'd be less competition and infighting between them, but yeah. He said the inevitable rivalries would be more civilized if the primarchs were sisters.
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Jun 8, 2017 19:53
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Cythereal posted:He said the inevitable rivalries would be more civilized if the primarchs were sisters. To be fair did things ever really get out of hand prior to the Heresy? Russ and the Lion brawled for like a day and a half and Russ ended up getting sucker punched at the end of it over the Lion misunderstanding why Russ was laughing about it. There were also some primarchs that kind of hated each other because of differing philosophies and stuff, but I don't think any relationships outright broke down until the Heresy.
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Jun 8, 2017 19:58
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If I were to want to get rid of my 40K paper fiction, would any of y'all buy it? Sending from Denmark, so it's probably too expensive to get to the US
Tias fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 20:01
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jadebullet posted:Because Space Marines aren't really male, they are weapons made out of flesh. A female marine would be pretty much the same exact thing as a male one. (Particularly since it is established that the geneseed even goes as far as adjusting the appearance of the Marines to be closer to the primarchs) Exactly, I agree entirely! Which is why I utterly fail to understand the inevitable wailing whenever someone proposes female space marines or increased female representation generally. It makes no difference within the existing universe, so why not make the change through a vehicle that doesn't make it an outright retcon (hence why primaris marines would be perfect). Since they are, as you say, just weapons independent of gender or sex, why not make the change that appeals to more folks in the real world? Let me have my power fantasy, I say. Heck, I don't even care about any model changes (with helmeted space marines, I expect there would literally need be none), I only ever read the novels.
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Jun 8, 2017 20:06
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Cat Army 
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Awful app is terrible sometimes ugh. Not going to retype everything I said but basically slapping a female name on a box/suit of armor and going "There are now female space marines, we are inclusive, buy our books" seems empty to me but as a male I have no idea so I may be way off base and its not my call to make. I agree with you about it being pointless since they are genderless from the start but they look like males due to geneseed weirdness and muscle growth. Would that be an issue for you? Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 20:17
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Yeah, sorry, I was being a dick.
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Jun 8, 2017 20:18
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Meridian posted:To be fair did things ever really get out of hand prior to the Heresy? Russ and the Lion brawled for like a day and a half and Russ ended up getting sucker punched at the end of it over the Lion misunderstanding why Russ was laughing about it. There were also some primarchs that kind of hated each other because of differing philosophies and stuff, but I don't think any relationships outright broke down until the Heresy. There was an outright battle between the World Eaters and Space Wolves, and it's hinted that the Wolves destroyed the II and XI legions.
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Jun 8, 2017 20:24
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I don't know, the reason might not be more than they arbitrarily decided that Space Marines would always be male when they created the idea and it's been that way for 30 years or whatever. Why are there no male Bene Gesserit? Simply because until Paul no males were able to survive the Spice Agony. Among all the other things 40k ripped from Dune, that one's pretty straight forward.
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Jun 8, 2017 20:26
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Cythereal posted:There was an outright battle between the World Eaters and Space Wolves, and it's hinted that the Wolves destroyed the II and XI legions. II and XI destroyed at the order of the Emperor himself right?
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Jun 8, 2017 20:29
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MariusLecter posted:II and XI destroyed at the order of the Emperor himself right? Probably. 30k hints that the Wolves destroyed those legions, that their primarchs betrayed the Emperor somehow, the Ultramarines may have absorbed the survivors, and Lorgar was close to both primarchs. That's all the detail about them for now.
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Jun 8, 2017 20:35
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Space marines have their out of fluff orgins in monks which is why they are sexless and all male. SOB are nuns. This is why they were decided to be single sex specific.
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Jun 8, 2017 20:36
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Meridian posted:I don't know, the reason might not be more than they arbitrarily decided that Space Marines would always be male when they created the idea and it's been that way for 30 years or whatever. There is no male reverend mothers you mean.
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Jun 8, 2017 20:41
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The Iron Rose posted:Exactly, I agree entirely! Because I would much prefer something that has more substance representation wise than just saying "this slab of meat started out as a woman" since the end result would be the exact same. (Even without a helmet.) That's just cheap lipservice, particularly since they aren't human anymore. Plus, there is a good chance that the genetics and geneseed and that would possibly develop them into males along the way anyway. (Seeing as all males started out female and with all the genesculpting and hormones and poo poo) I would rather have more representation in the guard by giving us some female heads. Or updated Sisters of Battle, which are arguably more badass than the Space Marines. Or even more inquisitors.
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Jun 8, 2017 20:41
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euphronius posted:There is no male reverend mothers you mean. Sure, but the point still stands.
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Jun 8, 2017 20:42
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Female space marines being sexless horse face monsters indistinguishable from male counterparts would say something I'm sure. Just have no idea what atm. 
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Jun 8, 2017 20:43
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No you were right. I looked it up and they were exclusively female. Sorry.
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Jun 8, 2017 20:44
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jadebullet posted:Because I would much prefer something that has more substance representation wise than just saying "this slab of meat started out as a woman" since the end result would be the exact same. (Even without a helmet.) That's just cheap lipservice, particularly since they aren't human anymore. Plus, there is a good chance that the genetics and geneseed and that would possibly develop them into males along the way anyway. (Seeing as all males started out female and with all the genesculpting and hormones and poo poo) Need the Leftenant (Mira?) from the Spacemarine game as an IG unit TIA
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Jun 8, 2017 20:45
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euphronius posted:No you were right. I looked it up and they were exclusively female. Sorry. It's been a while since I've read the books but I thought you could be trained in the ways so to speak but until you drank the juice you weren't official. That's the parallel I was trying to draw with Space Marines, sure you could throw in some organs and implants, but if every female initiate dies, welp.
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Jun 8, 2017 20:47
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The Iron Rose posted:Exactly, I agree entirely! Primaris Marines would have been a good opportunity to do something like this, but at the same time I have doubts that breaking up the homogenization of Space Marines or the Sisters of Battle would really serve narrative interests. It would serve a heterogeneous power fantasy, that's true, but would also disrupt the existing power fantasies of each group. I think that it would humanize them and make them too similar to each other and the Imperial Guard. Without the gender differences and the monk/nun culture, they're just generic sci-fi soldiers. And I think that authors and players would find it difficult to resist genderizing their interactions, which wouldn't be wanted either. If Primaris Marines had been made hetero-gendered, they would be seen as culturally very different from the traditional Adeptus Astartes. I think that it would be better to focus on improving the female models and characterization in other areas of the universe. Kaal fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 21:18
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I'm pretty sure I read the reason for why the geneseed resulted in crazy mutations and death in female implantees was periods.
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Jun 8, 2017 21:21
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Kaal posted:Primaris Marines would have been a good opportunity to do something like this, but at the same time I have doubts that breaking up the homogenization of Space Marines or the Sisters of Battle would really serve narrative interests. It would serve a heterogeneous power fantasy, that's true, but would also disrupt the existing power fantasies of each group. I think that it would humanize them and make them too similar to each other and the Imperial Guard. Without the gender differences and the monk/nun culture, they're just generic sci-fi soldiers. And I think that authors and players would find it difficult to resist genderizing their interactions, which wouldn't be wanted either. If Primaris Marines had been made hetero-gendered, they would be seen as culturally very different from the traditional Adeptus Astartes. I think that it would be better to focus on improving the female models and characterization in other areas of the universe. But let's face it: they're probably not going to, and Marines are always going to be the centerpiece of 40k. I don't see why it's such a big deal to wish the faction and army 90% of all books and games about 40k revolve around had women in it.
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Jun 8, 2017 21:27
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jadebullet posted:Because I would much prefer something that has more substance representation wise than just saying "this slab of meat started out as a woman" since the end result would be the exact same. (Even without a helmet.) That's just cheap lipservice, particularly since they aren't human anymore. Plus, there is a good chance that the genetics and geneseed and that would possibly develop them into males along the way anyway. (Seeing as all males started out female and with all the genesculpting and hormones and poo poo) Okay, but cheap lipservice is better than nothing. Like, even if it's literally just adding an "s" before the "he" on the page and nothing else change, that's good enough? Why do men get to be the default here? Because besides the sexism of thirty years ago saying "no girls allowed!" and hilarious vague allusions to "b-b-but it's a literary reference to monks!" I've not gotten a real answer as to why y'all object to female space marines. Like, you're saying that it's substanceless representation as if that's a reason to keep space marines male only. It's not. It's the very fact that the gender of space marines is meaningless that substanceless that means there's literally no reason not to.
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Jun 8, 2017 21:28
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The Iron Rose posted:Okay, but cheap lipservice is better than nothing. And the whole "But they're monks!" thing kinda flies out the window when one of the best known chapters is actually a bunch of vikings, another is comprised mainly of vampires, then there's all the Roman dudes, and here's our Mongols, and the most monk-like chapter is stuffed full of references to homosexuality.
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Jun 8, 2017 21:40
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The Iron Rose posted:Okay, but cheap lipservice is better than nothing. Because its a setting choice to ape the monks of medieval times? Its not that males are the the default and picked randomly, its that they are based and have there origins on something that was explicitly male only. Also as a minority, cheap lip service is arguably worse than nothing because it can basically appease people by making it seem like problem is addressed when really they just sweep it aside. You would really be happy with them adding a few s's to some space marines? Why not instead push for more and better representstion of female guardsmen, SOB/SOS or literally anything else in general. ^^^ They are totally monks though they are themed, its where the whole brother thing comes into play, the fasts and meditations and scriptures and monasteries come into play. Its really really apparent.
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Jun 8, 2017 21:40
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Telsa Cola posted:Because its a setting choice to ape the monks of medieval times? Its not that males are the the default and picked randomly, its that they are based and have there origins on something that was explicitly male only. They're knights, perhaps, but monks? No. You don't get to be monks when you're also vikings and mongols and every other Earth warrior culture that's not comprised of black or brown people. And some people want lip service representation because 90% of all books, games, and artwork from 40k are about Marines. Non-Marine factions are lucky to be seen at all, much less have notable women representation. 40k is written by and for male grogs. Is it any surprise it's a rather alienating setting to women?
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Jun 8, 2017 21:43
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Telsa Cola posted:Space marines are a weird combination of monks and knights which is why they got their start as all male. Sisters of Battle are Battle-Nuns and there a combination of factors on why the dont get more representation but it all comes down to $$$ (GW has come around on this more so there should hopefully be more books on them soon). Also sisters of silence are totally a thing and they are kicking rad yet everyone forgets them. To be fair Ra calls him out on whether the visions he is being shown are even real and the emperor gives a non answer and ends the vision, RA's own mother if i remember right also said the emperor was just a dark age of technology weapon that got out of its box and wouldn't go back in so its up in the air if any of that stuff he is showing Ra is real or just metaphor for the sacrifice he spends the whole book setting ra up to make.
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Jun 8, 2017 21:47
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Telsa Cola posted:Also as a minority, cheap lip service is arguably worse than nothing because it can basically appease people by making it seem like problem is addressed when really they just sweep it aside. You would really be happy with them adding a few s's to some space marines? Why not instead push for more and better representstion of female guardsmen, SOB/SOS or literally anything else in general.  But yeah, better representation of female guardsmen, sisters of battle, and inquistors is all great! But 90% of BL novels are about space marines, 90% of what people read is about space marines, literally just adding a few "s"es is all it takes to make the setting less alienating, no pun intended. That's it! And I don't see why that's such a problem for you.
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Jun 8, 2017 21:53
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The Iron Rose posted:
Because it goes against the established "rules" of the universe. Now, female Custodes? That'd be the poo poo.
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Jun 8, 2017 21:55
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Cythereal posted:They're knights, perhaps, but monks? No. You don't get to be monks when you're also vikings and mongols and every other Earth warrior culture that's not comprised of black or brown people. They have whole bunch of both aspects of monks and knights though they do have a combination of both. I dont know what else to tell you, its literally in the names of like 75% of their things. Also some of those are pretty bad categories to be mad about, 90% of marine artwork has them in armor and as stated that geneseed would make the masculine looking anyway thats a pointless media for this argument as if you are looking at a picture for female representation yet all females look like super buff males you are not going to find what you want. The last few most popular warhammer 40k games had important and/or well received female characters so sorry the old rts from like 5 years ago had terrible characters? Also several chapters and legions were based on non-white cultures, though hilariously a lot of those went to chaos. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 21:55
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The Iron Rose posted:Ah, I love how the slightest suggestion brings out the grognard rage Because there's no room on battlebarges for gender-segregated bathrooms, like DUH!
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Jun 8, 2017 21:55
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Meridian posted:Because it goes against the established "rules" of the universe. This bascially, there is waaay to much fluff and built up setting pointing to why the marines are the way they are and it would feel really weird and like very poorly done lip service to slap a few shes in there. Female custodes would be super awesome and they are not super established so thats an easy one. Maybe have them work out a way to make SOB be bio enchanced, I dunno. The point is that there is a both in and out of setting reasons why marines are male. The setting as a whole could do with more female representation though that has been getting better in the past year or so I feel. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 21:57
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Because there's no room on battlebarges for gender-segregated bathrooms, like DUH! They wouldn't need them! 
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Jun 8, 2017 21:57
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Telsa Cola posted:This bascially, there is waaay to much fluff and built up setting pointing to why the marines are the way they are and it would feel really weird and like very poorly done lip service to slap a few shes in there. Female custodes would be super awesome and they are not super established so thats an easy one. Maybe have them work out a way to make SOB be bio enchanced, I dunno. The point is that there is a both in and out of setting reasons why marines are male. precisely why, seeing as time travel is impossible, using the completely blank slate primaris marines would be a perfect mechanism to do so, and I feel like it's a missed opportunity
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Jun 8, 2017 22:12
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The Iron Rose posted:precisely why, seeing as time travel is impossible, using the completely blank slate primaris marines would be a perfect mechanism to do so, and I feel like it's a missed opportunity Oh, no thats a good idea. Im sorry if you stated that earlier and I missed this, i thought we were talking about regular marines. There is enough leeway with how they were made that I see that fitting into the setting easy enough and the implications would be ideal (double your recruitment pool anyone?). Cawl had 10k years he could figure out something. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 22:14
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Telsa Cola posted:Oh, no thats a good idea. Im sorry if you stated that earlier and I missed this, i thought we were talking about regular marines. There is enough leeway with how they were made that I see that fitting into the setting easy enough and the implications would be ideal (double your recruitment pool anyone?). Yeah that was why I was like "what" about all that! it'd be pretty dumb to change every space marine chapter now, that's a good 30 years too late. It's an established part of the lore and not something that's really worth changing. But if you're introducing a new breed of space marine anyways, and given it'd make a lot of sense lore wise...
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Jun 8, 2017 22:18
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The Iron Rose posted:Yeah that was why I was like "what" about all that! it'd be pretty dumb to change every space marine chapter now, that's a good 30 years too late. It's an established part of the lore and not something that's really worth changing. But if you're introducing a new breed of space marine anyways, and given it'd make a lot of sense lore wise... Why not just make them normal, well-adjusted human beings at that point? Because basically what you're describing are HALO Spartans - power armored super soldiers with generic personalities. I don't see the upside here. The Baroque neoclassical mentality mimicking medieval structures and cultural mores is a defining element of the Space Marines / Sisters of Battle. Removing that distinction by making Woke Marines seems more disruptive than anything else. I mean I recognize that all you're wanting to do is break up the boys club and be more inclusive, but unfair exclusivity and gender norm enforcement is part of the dystopia fiction. Kaal fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 23:22
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Kaal posted:Why not just make them normal, well-adjusted human beings at that point? Because basically what you're describing are HALO Spartans - power armored super soldiers with generic personalities. I don't see the upside here. The Baroque neoclassical mentality mimicking medieval structures and cultural mores is a defining element of the Space Marines / Sisters of Battle. Removing that distinction by making Woke Marines seems more disruptive than anything else. But when do the Space Marines ever actually act like monks, or even knights? They're just generic overmuscled dudebros who just have weird names for poo poo as far as their actual portrayals as characters go. It's very rare to see one who actually lives up to the fluff.
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Jun 8, 2017 23:30
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Space Marines are dumb, overtly masculine meatslabs with no personality who cowardly waltz into battle in impenetrable armour so their man feelings won't get hurt. Guard are both inclusive of all genders and are at least 400% braver as they charge into battle wearing cardboard.
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