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Cythereal posted:But when do the Space Marines ever actually act like monks, or even knights? They're just generic overmuscled dudebros who just have weird names for poo poo as far as their actual portrayals as characters go. It's very rare to see one who actually lives up to the fluff. They have meditations, anoting oils, scriptures they refer to, serfs, champions, tournaments, penance sessions. There headquarters are fortress monasteries where they wear robes when out of armor. They call each other brother. Prayer scrolls are a thing on their armor. We dont see it because like 90% we see them they are in battle but the other 10% is monastic living. Like holy poo poo this is like textbook stereotypical western monk stuff. All thats missing is them brewing beer and having funky haircuts. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 23:34
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Cythereal posted:But when do the Space Marines ever actually act like monks, or even knights? They're just generic overmuscled dudebros who just have weird names for poo poo as far as their actual portrayals as characters go. It's very rare to see one who actually lives up to the fluff. They do it all the time? They're constantly chanting hymns, inscribing artifacts, making penance, etc. All of their buildings and equipment are themed around a monastic life. Their daily schedules are explicitly ordered in a way that parodies living in a monastery. All that being said, this sort of thing is always bad PR for any company, and probably would result in lots of enthusiastic yet terrible fan fiction. If I were advising GW I'd suggest heading off the problem by implying some level of gene variance in the Primaris Marines that results in the occasional female candidate. Some chapters accept them and others don't. Let player interest dictate how much farther to take it. Kaal fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 23:37
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A better question is what are you expecting them to be like if they were based off monks?
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Jun 8, 2017 23:38
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Telsa Cola posted:A better question is what are you expecting them to be like if they were based off monks? Traveling from monastery and monastery solving mysterious crimes?
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Jun 8, 2017 23:46
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Kaal posted:Why not just make them normal, well-adjusted human beings at that point? Because basically what you're describing are HALO Spartans - power armored super soldiers with generic personalities. I don't see the upside here. The Baroque neoclassical mentality mimicking medieval structures and cultural mores is a defining element of the Space Marines / Sisters of Battle. Removing that distinction by making Woke Marines seems more disruptive than anything else. I mean I recognize that all you're wanting to do is break up the boys club and be more inclusive, but unfair exclusivity and gender norm enforcement is part of the dystopia fiction. nah actually, the imperium is a dystopia but it's never been one that's reflected real world issues in the day to day. It's never trafficked in overt racism or the enforcement of gender norms other than with Space Marines and male authors writing about male characters. But I have to say I really like the implication that making some Primaris Marines female is equivalent to turning 40k into Halo, good grief y'all get mad about someone breaking up the boys club.
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Jun 8, 2017 23:52
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Cat Army 
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Xae posted:Traveling from monastery and monastery solving mysterious crimes? The series is set during the early 35K, in the fictional Terran village of Kriegsford, where Father Brownius, Brother-Chaplain of the Imperial Fists, solves murder cases. This is much to the exasperation of a bumbling Inquisitor who often arrests the wrong suspect. Father Brownius uses the distinctive skills of his close friends as well as his own wits to solve cases, occasionally to the neglect of his more mundane parish duties. His vocation as a Chaplain often gives him an insight to the truth, so that justice (but occasionally, not the letter of the law) may be served; also in this regard, obeying the Seal of the Confessional often presents unique circumstances. The time period is during the Imperium's emergence from the hardships of the Horus Heresy. The death penalty, which the relatively sympathetic Father Brownius only supports in 95% of cases, is still in effect for capital crimes such as murder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Brown_(2013_TV_series)
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Jun 8, 2017 23:55
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Oh boy this discussion again. This never gets old.
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Jun 9, 2017 00:10
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The Iron Rose posted:It's never trafficked in overt racism
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Jun 9, 2017 00:13
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The Iron Rose posted:nah actually, the imperium is a dystopia but it's never been one that's reflected real world issues in the day to day. It's never trafficked in overt racism or the enforcement of gender norms other than with Space Marines and male authors writing about male characters. But I have to say I really like the implication that making some Primaris Marines female is equivalent to turning 40k into Halo, good grief y'all get mad about someone breaking up the boys club. I don't think anyone suggested that the fiction reflects the real world in any particular way. But obviously there is unfairness and discrimination throughout the universe. Slavery is endemic throughout the empire, the Imperium hunts down heretics and mutants with brutal force, and the system as a whole is an unforgiving oligarchy that shrugs at individual rights or suffering. So dividing the power armor folks into Space Marines for boys, Sisters of Battle for girls, certainly works within that system. It really does seem that your suggested retcons only serve to make the Space Marines even more generic than they already are, and you haven't really explained why that would be a good narrative addition besides it appealing to your preferred power fantasy. You don't need to get mad about it, just recognize that it would also have negative effects to other parts of the fiction that you are ignoring because you apparently don't care about them.
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Jun 9, 2017 00:15
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There are no female marines because they can't pass selection standards just like there are no female Green Berets, Navy SEALs, Delta Force shooters, SAS shooters or any other "elite" "special operations" style group. There are females who are part of the team and perform support and ancillary functions. poo poo they may even shoot sometimes but they haven't gone through and can not pass selection. Females in infantry require their own set of physical standards and always perform below a male performance level, they also physically break down easier.  The Olympics women's soccer team regularly gets smoked by high school boys. Look at male and female track times, ya'll can say whatever you want but physically and athletically women don't loving cut it. That's the in universe reason there are no female marines. There are you loving happy? I said it. Lets throw gasoline on this bitch. This is the dumbest loving derail in my favorite thread. Can we move on On the other hand they are alot better at other poo poo
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Jun 9, 2017 00:27
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Arquinsiel posted:What exactly do you think "purge the xenos" means? ain't remotely the same as "purge the darkies" No one's ever been mistreated in black library novels based on the colour of their skin, not that I've ever seen. Kaal posted:I don't think anyone suggested that the fiction reflects the real world in any particular way. But obviously there is unfairness and discrimination throughout the universe. Slavery is endemic throughout the empire, the Imperium hunts down heretics and mutants with brutal force, and the system as a whole is an unforgiving oligarchy that shrugs at individual rights or suffering. So dividing the power armor folks into Space Marines for boys, Sisters of Battle for girls, certainly works within that system. I mean ultimately, here's the thing. You guys can't actually have it both ways. Either adding an "s" is a completely inconsequential change that serves as meaningless lipservice, or it's a serious change that will "make space marines more generic." I'm not seeing any negative effects whatsoever, other than that it'll annoy people to whom the idea of female space marines seems 'wrong' for no other reason than inertia and halfhearted monastic justifications that scarcely seem reasonable in the face of vikings and vampires. It's a justification that's constructed in retrospect, and frankly, it's sci fi in space. Nothing space marines do in the fiction requires them to have a dick. I'm not even asking for any retcons - hell, I'm not asking for anything. But I don't think that making the franchise appealing to a broader section of the population and divesting itself of archaic, misogynist trappings is something that has any negative effects on any other aspect of the fiction. I think that the primaris marines were a great opportunity to do exactly that, I'm disappointed they didn't, I'm sadly unsurprised that this is the reaction I got for going "hey this is a cool thing that could probably help get more women interested in the fandom!"
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Jun 9, 2017 00:29
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The Iron Rose posted:ain't remotely the same as "purge the darkies"
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Jun 9, 2017 00:36
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An Umberto Eco style mystery novel starring a Sister of Battle investigating fellow sororitas. In the Name of the Sacred Rose
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Jun 9, 2017 00:36
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Waroduce posted:There are no female marines because they can't pass selection standards just like there are no female Green Berets, Navy SEALs, Delta Force shooters, SAS shooters or any other "elite" "special operations" style group. There are females who are part of the team and perform support and ancillary functions. poo poo they may even shoot sometimes but they haven't gone through and can not pass selection. Is this a joke post
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Jun 9, 2017 00:37
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I don't think 40k is full blown allegorical but there is lots of parody and satire of today's politics
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Jun 9, 2017 00:43
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I think if the SOBs weren't so underrepresented this would be less of an issue. Fluff wise they just need more Black Library attention, applying the same tact with meat head marines to the womz.
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Jun 9, 2017 00:48
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More female authors would probably help.
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Jun 9, 2017 00:53
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Kaal posted:The series is set during the early 35K, in the fictional Terran village of Kriegsford, where Father Brownius, Brother-Chaplain of the Imperial Fists, solves murder cases. This is much to the exasperation of a bumbling Inquisitor who often arrests the wrong suspect. Father Brownius uses the distinctive skills of his close friends as well as his own wits to solve cases, occasionally to the neglect of his more mundane parish duties. His vocation as a Chaplain often gives him an insight to the truth, so that justice (but occasionally, not the letter of the law) may be served; also in this regard, obeying the Seal of the Confessional often presents unique circumstances. The time period is during the Imperium's emergence from the hardships of the Horus Heresy. The death penalty, which the relatively sympathetic Father Brownius only supports in 95% of cases, is still in effect for capital crimes such as murder. Anything that isn't bolter porn would be great.
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Jun 9, 2017 00:55
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euphronius posted:I don't think 40k is full blown allegorical but there is lots of parody and satire of today's politics
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Jun 9, 2017 00:58
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You cannot be serious.
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Jun 9, 2017 01:26
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BL needs to hire me; I can't stop thinking about Adeptus Ministorum murder mysteries.
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Jun 9, 2017 01:27
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im sorry i feel very passionately about female marines, the setting just doesn't do it for me without them. i feel incomplete its so unfair they can not be marines UGH!
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Jun 9, 2017 01:49
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Somewhere in one of the Games Day exclusive books there's a story about some Administratum dude who investigates some weird numbers in some shipments of like coffee stirrers or some poo poo and it turns out his immediate boss has been skimming off the top for years and the dude investigates it all by himself and ends up getting tangled up with underhive gangs and all kinds of poo poo in his quest to eventually discover that the dude has an unsanctioned kid that he's keeping alive somewhere downhive. Which as a good bureaucrat the protagonist of course reports through proper channels, knowing that he has done his duty and also nobody will notice before the kid is long dead. It is exactly as rad as you'd think.
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Jun 9, 2017 01:51
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It is a little weird that there hasn't been a single named female Necron character yet. I mean, they were made into Battlebots right alongside the males. ^And yeah, that story was great
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Jun 9, 2017 02:06
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Hustlin Floh posted:It is a little weird that there hasn't been a single named female Necron character yet. I mean, they were made into Battlebots right alongside the males. I know the game doesn't have any, but the Imperial Armour books from Forge World had one- Xun'bakyr, aka "The Mother of Oblivion". There was also a pretty neat short story about a female necron Cryptek waking up to a horrifically glitched out tomb world and struggling to fight off the ''nids in the Shield of Baal short story anthology, there were a couple of mentions of power female rulers in the shattered dynasties.
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Jun 9, 2017 02:33
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Hustlin Floh posted:It is a little weird that there hasn't been a single named female Necron character yet. I mean, they were made into Battlebots right alongside the males. There is one: Xun'bakyr, the Mother of Oblivion. Phaerakh (presumably the feminine of Phaeron, making her the supreme general) of the Maynarkh Dynasty, an infamously bloodthirsty and aggressive Necron dynasty that wreaked havoc on the Imperium and wiped out a Space Marine chapter. Why no she doesn't have tabletop rules or a model or even a picture, why do you ask?
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Jun 9, 2017 02:34
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Huh, good to know. I skimmed that Imperial Armour.
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Jun 9, 2017 02:52
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There is already a lot of fluff involving women in 40K that is accurate and appropriate. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Cleaning
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Jun 9, 2017 03:41
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The Iron Rose posted:nah actually, the imperium is a dystopia but it's never been one that's reflected real world issues in the day to day. It's never trafficked in overt racism or the enforcement of gender norms other than with Space Marines and male authors writing about male characters. One of the Big Bads is named after Margaret Thatcher and the (dated) French, German and Oriental racial stereotypes are very prominent. I agree they should make some female space marines, that would be cool. Or at least have more female representation. Particularly the sort of intelligent girl that enjoys boys games such as featured here. I feel like the newly reimagined Lion El'Johnson would work well as a woman. They've already got the long flowing blonde hair and slight figure so it'd be an easy transition while remaining acceptable to the worst of the grognard base. Since it's new and in process anyway it'd be an OK fix. Mortarion is pretty poorly developed so they could probably make the gender switch too. It works well since they'd become an avatar of Nurgle's wife, I forget her name. Magnus and Ferrus seem like good possible choices too with how they are written and presented. That said, the homofascism does fit the setting. But since camp has been fading from hams for a while now, bringing in some women would be a nice change of pace.
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Jun 9, 2017 04:08
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Abnett's wife wrote a short story about the women in the First and Only's baggage train.
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Jun 9, 2017 04:13
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Arquinsiel posted:What exactly do you think "purge the xenos" means? Speciesism, surely?
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Jun 9, 2017 04:36
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Arquinsiel posted:I mean... if you don't look at how the Imperium views aliens what with the general concept of irreversible cultural contamination via simple non-violent contact and immediately see the parallels to real world racist ideologies then... well I guess I'm kind of envious of you for not having seen the poo poo some people spew about other ethnicities. The Imperium is correct though, ya git. The people who do that irl aren't.
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Jun 9, 2017 04:40
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Arquinsiel posted:Somewhere in one of the Games Day exclusive books there's a story about some Administratum dude who investigates some weird numbers in some shipments of like coffee stirrers or some poo poo and it turns out his immediate boss has been skimming off the top for years and the dude investigates it all by himself and ends up getting tangled up with underhive gangs and all kinds of poo poo in his quest to eventually discover that the dude has an unsanctioned kid that he's keeping alive somewhere downhive. Which as a good bureaucrat the protagonist of course reports through proper channels, knowing that he has done his duty and also nobody will notice before the kid is long dead. I thought that was Sandy Mitchell's story in the first Sabbat Worlds anthology.
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Jun 9, 2017 04:52
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Shbobdb posted:One of the Big Bads is named after Margaret Thatcher and the (dated) French, German and Oriental racial stereotypes are very prominent. You cannot be serious
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Jun 9, 2017 04:57
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This is actually an awful derail. So what do people think of the Primarch's specific novel's they've been putting out. I really liked Magnus the Red and while I usually like Chris Wraight, I thought the Leman Russ one was abit...ehh. But that might be because I find almost every novel the Dark Angels are in incredibly boring. Anyone else have this problem? The dark angels make every story far worse? Maybe I just hate the dark angels. Whatever. Also, anyone besides me want some novels set between M32 and M40 or so. There seems like there is some great fluff hidden in there. The "War of the False Primarch" seems really interesting. I would also love to see some more fluff on the smaller, weirder ordo;s of the Inquisition.
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Jun 9, 2017 06:17
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I was really into the secret of Caliban and how the planet's warp taint was woven into the stories, but then it was somehow completely abandoned. I mean, I know that the planet eventually gets busted up, but Jesus, maybe move the plot ahead some.
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Jun 9, 2017 06:28
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Arquinsiel posted:I mean... if you don't look at how the Imperium views aliens what with the general concept of irreversible cultural contamination via simple non-violent contact and immediately see the parallels to real world racist ideologies then... well I guess I'm kind of envious of you for not having seen the poo poo some people spew about other ethnicities. I didn't disagree with you at all lol. I just said it's not allegory. There is definite satire though as you mention
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Jun 9, 2017 13:02
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I believe Bolters identify as female and resent the constant manipulation their bodies endure at the hands of an all male patriarchal society Let's discuss
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Jun 9, 2017 13:11
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Can we not?
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Jun 9, 2017 14:17
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Endman posted:An Umberto Eco style mystery novel starring a Sister of Battle investigating fellow sororitas. I'd read it. But only if you somnehow got Matthew Farrer to write it and it had to include Shira Calpurnia in cameo role. Also Faith & Fire, the first SoB book by James Swallow is a decent murder mystery from what I can remember of it. Endman posted:BL needs to hire me; I can't stop thinking about Adeptus Ministorum murder mysteries. If you already haven't, read the Enforcer trilogy. At least the first book is a pretty good murder mystery.
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Jun 9, 2017 14:50
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