|
Neurosis posted:well. he ended up a general and he was at least alive at the end of red country. god knows what having his wife whisked away to be a concubine to an immortal giant did to him. Wait, immortal? What did I miss?
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 19:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 11:24 |
|
|
His Divine Shadow posted:Wait, immortal? What did I miss? Stranger-Come-Knocking works for Bayaz, and is at least rumored to have survived wounds that would kill lesser men. He's probably not immortal, but it wouldn't be a surprise if Bayaz hasn't done something to him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 20:10
|
|
|
Kill a lesser man, sure, but he's a legit giant. You've probably survived things that would destroy a toddler but it doesn't mean you're hot poo poo among men
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
i was thinking he's related in some way to Fenris-the-Feared, who was immortal, since it's emphasised he is not just a really big guy but an actual inhuman giant.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2017 04:16
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:i was thinking he's related in some way to Fenris-the-Feared, who was immortal, since it's emphasised he is not just a really big guy but an actual inhuman giant. From the perspective of regular people, he's drat sure an inhuman giant. I feel a legit Fenris-style giant would have a cooler birth name.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2017 05:13
|
|
|
Fly Molo posted:From the perspective of regular people, he's drat sure an inhuman giant. well. tul duru was 7 feet tall, and fenris and stranger received far more attention than him for their size, and we know fenris was around since juvens et al (albeit he could have been kept alive by magic). so i interpret fenris and stranger as being inhuman in some way, albeit i'm not sure we'll get any explanation (logan's spiritual abilities which let him spit fire barely got any press, after all, though i'd be surprised if we didn't get something on that in the next trilogy). i am being reminded of how cool logen's fight with fenris was, and the bloody nine fight scenes in general. i appreciate he's presented largely as an object of horror, but i could not suppress the masculine part of my brain making my heart beat faster at how thrilling seeing logen going from competent veteran to unstoppable-rage-elemental was.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2017 07:40
|
|
|
I thought that Stranger-Come-Knocking said somewhere in the heroes that he used to be called "Pip," which was the name of one of Crummock-i-Phail's children in the original trilogy. IE he's Crummock's son and just a really big dude.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2017 08:26
|
|
|
Grand Prize Winner posted:I thought that Stranger-Come-Knocking said somewhere in the heroes that he used to be called "Pip," which was the name of one of Crummock-i-Phail's children in the original trilogy. IE he's Crummock's son and just a really big dude. oh right. i somehow missed that. i'm surprised. Neurosis fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Jun 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2017 10:52
|
|
|
None of Crummock-i-Phail's children were named Pip. Furthermore, he was chief of the hillmen, not the savage tribes east of the Crinna. Plus not enough time passed between the original trilogy and The Heroes for one of his kids to grow into a giant with grey-streaked hair. Nor are there any allusions to Stranger-Come-Knocking being anything other than just a big rear end dude. It's a reasonable speculation that Bayaz assisted him somehow and may be responsible for his tremendous size, but I don't think you can compare him to The Feared. It's repeatedly stated that Bayaz' art is just a shadow of the powers wielded by the his previous masters. Ain't no way the dude's immortal. Nor are there any allusions that Glokta is one of Bayaz' plants.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2017 19:25
|
|
|
Suxpool posted:None of Crummock-i-Phail's children were named Pip. Furthermore, he was chief of the hillmen, not the savage tribes east of the Crinna. Plus not enough time passed between the original trilogy and The Heroes for one of his kids to grow into a giant with grey-streaked hair. he may have been a holdover from previous times, is what i was thinking. it's difficult to know because abercrombie is pretty sparing with explaining the more supernatural aspects where they're not completely necessary to the plot. the pip thing still makes it unlikely he's more than a loving huge guy, though, so i'm not walking back on the acceptance i was wrong.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2017 09:38
|
|
|
yeah i just never saw anything to suggest he's anything other than a) a massive fuckin dude and b) one of bayaz' cultivated allies/pawns (like bethod was supposed to be) i suppose his name might suggest he's not native to the eastern tribes to be fair
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2017 00:55
|
|
|
I'm reading the Shattered Sea books and they're not that much different from Abercrombie's other stuff. I expected he would have watered down his content a lot, like how China Mieville does when he writes young-adult, but the only difference seems to be the main character are younger than in The First Law.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2017 01:32
|
|
|
I feel like The Shattered Sea books are shorter, the writing is less colorful, and the plots and themes are much more straightforward.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2017 06:07
|
|
|
Suxpool posted:yeah i just never saw anything to suggest he's anything other than a) a massive fuckin dude and b) one of bayaz' cultivated allies/pawns (like bethod was supposed to be) i just connected the dots with fenris who appeared to be supernatural even apart from his invulnerable tattoos (said something about fighting the wars of little men). My mistake
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2017 10:21
|
|
|
Suxpool posted:None of Crummock-i-Phail's children were named Pip. Furthermore, he was chief of the hillmen, not the savage tribes east of the Crinna. Plus not enough time passed between the original trilogy and The Heroes for one of his kids to grow into a giant with grey-streaked hair. Ah nuts. Could have sworn I remembered a "Pip" from the trilogy. My bad.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2017 23:29
|
|
|
Ccs posted:I'm reading the Shattered Sea books and they're not that much different from Abercrombie's other stuff. I expected he would have watered down his content a lot, like how China Mieville does when he writes young-adult, but the only difference seems to be the main character are younger than in The First Law. No graphic descriptions of sex either.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 22:43
|
|
|
ZombieLenin posted:No graphic descriptions of sex either. I never thought that the relatively few sex scenes Abercrombie has were all that graphic, especially considering some of the other fantasy novels out there. But he also tones down the cursing in the Shattered Sea trilogy..
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 19:12
|
|
|
King of Foolians posted:I never thought that the relatively few sex scenes Abercrombie has were all that graphic, especially considering some of the other fantasy novels out there. They always seemed more humorous than anything
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 23:43
|
|
|
King of Foolians posted:I never thought that the relatively few sex scenes Abercrombie has were all that graphic, especially considering some of the other fantasy novels out there. They weren't. It's just they are pretty much non existent in the "young adult" stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 00:34
|
|
|
I'm rereading The First Law and it just sucks so much when it's revealed Bayaz killed Juvens and Tolomei. And then Yulwei dies, the last Magi who's not a total bastard. sigh Great book, but once that happens Bayaz becomes a bigger villain that Khalul.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2017 04:28
|
|
|
He's a huge bastard and I can't wait to find out what happens to him when the next book releases in 2026.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2017 04:53
|
|
|
Ccs posted:I'm rereading The First Law and it just sucks so much when it's revealed Bayaz killed Juvens and Tolomei. And then Yulwei dies, the last Magi who's not a total bastard. sigh i dunno. we haven't seen much of khalul, but he's the controller of an army of cannibal sorcerers and an empire which practises large-scale slavery. it may be that he's doing more to make things poo poo for the average person in lands he has influence over.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2017 09:27
|
|
|
Ccs posted:I'm rereading The First Law and it just sucks so much when it's revealed Bayaz killed Juvens and Tolomei. And then Yulwei dies, the last Magi who's not a total bastard. sigh I hear you. But then, it's sort of the entire point of the series that there are no good guys. Oh, and the grand heroic quest turns out to be a waste of time, the vicious and amoral torturer is rewarded by becoming the most powerful man in the Union, the peasant boy made good who miraculously becomes King turns out to be a figurehead (and glad of it), etc., etc.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2017 16:56
|
|
|
ZekeNY posted:I hear you. But then, it's sort of the entire point of the series that there are no good guys. Oh, and the grand heroic quest turns out to be a waste of time, the vicious and amoral torturer is rewarded by becoming the most powerful man in the Union, the peasant boy made good who miraculously becomes King turns out to be a figurehead (and glad of it), etc., etc. The main trilogy does tend to grind your face in the unfairness a little much, though, which I think is part of the reason that many people tend to point to the three stand-alone books, where sometimes point of view characters actually win, as being better reads.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2017 20:58
|
|
|
Yeah I like the standalones a lot better, they're still thematically very similar but just so much enjoyable to read. Unfortunately, I do think people need to read First Law first to get a better feel for the world and occasional character references, so I do usually recommend reading the trilogy first even though he's really much improved as a writer and made much better stuff since. Just curious, did anyone ever read the standalones first?
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2017 22:23
|
|
|
Still find it weird that I found the end of the First Law trilogy entirely satisfying and not even that depressing (other than West's death). It definitely wasn't a happy ending, but it didn't leave me traumatised or...blue-ballsed on a conclusion. It still felt impactful and meaningful, even in its futility. The Heroes felt more bleak down to a personal level despite effectively giving out a few pleasant resolutions.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2017 23:02
|
|
|
Maybe I’m weird, or a horrible person, but I found most of the First Law trilogy, including the big reveals, more funny than bleak. It seemed like a really cynical black action-comedy to me, and introducing a character who seems on his face like Gandalf, only to reveal that he’s actually the evil magical overlord who rules half the world, just without the spikey armor or throne of skulls made me laugh more than anything. Abercrombie’s favorite trick seems to be introducing characters with a strong first impression, and then gradually revealing to the audience that the first impression is completely wrong. Not always in a grimdark way either: I liked how Monza was introduced as a revenge-at-any-cost antihero who everyone saw as an evil mercenary captain, and then it was gradually revealed that she was the most morally centered character in the story (relatively speaking, of course).
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2017 05:44
|
|
|
And also that her beloved brother who was killed at the start, driving the entire revenge plot, was actually as evil as her reputation, and truly deserved his lot. She had merely looked past it because she loved him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2017 16:40
|
|
|
I know this is probably wrong but was it Bayaz who hit Jezal with the mace? We never see the wielder and it suits his purposes: "It will serve." It wouldn't have been hard for him to get his apprentice (yeah I know) to go along with it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2017 16:52
|
|
|
Blastedhellscape posted:Maybe I’m weird, or a horrible person, but I found most of the First Law trilogy, including the big reveals, more funny than bleak. It seemed like a really cynical black action-comedy to me, and introducing a character who seems on his face like Gandalf, only to reveal that he’s actually the evil magical overlord who rules half the world, just without the spikey armor or throne of skulls made me laugh more than anything. Yeah, I've never felt it was bleak. Even Bayaz is pretty inept in the face of the actual horrors of the world Capitalism and Religion. I did end up feeling bad for the one dude who actually bought into the peasant's rebellion/let's make this monarchy into a democracy/whatever the poorly explained sideshow Bayaz had his disciple running was. It's just a series that is upfront about the realities of the characters' world.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2017 18:37
|
|
|
Blastedhellscape posted:Maybe I’m weird, or a horrible person, but I found most of the First Law trilogy, including the big reveals, more funny than bleak. It seemed like a really cynical black action-comedy to me, and introducing a character who seems on his face like Gandalf, only to reveal that he’s actually the evil magical overlord who rules half the world, just without the spikey armor or throne of skulls made me laugh more than anything. Judging from the reactions I've gotten from my friends that have read the trilogy, you're pretty weird. I am too I guess because that's exactly how I feel about Abercrombie's books. There's no such thing as a classic archetypal good guy in the First Law world. Everybody's just acting out of their own motivations. I guess I'm just a huge cynic because that makes these books feel very true to life for me. As for Bayaz and Khalul, I definitely see Bayaz as being the true Worst Guy of the series. Any perceived quality of life advantages for the common man in Bayaz's portion of the world over Khalul's empire I would just attribute to different management styles. They're both lacking any shred of compassion for the peoples they rule over. Bayaz is a tyrant out of ambition and lust for power, whereas I think it's heavily implied that everything Khalul has done is in service of his desire to take revenge on Bayaz for murdering their master. I wouldn't put it past Joe to spin us a point of view that shows Khalul as a very sympathetic character in the future. Collateral posted:I know this is probably wrong but was it Bayaz who hit Jezal with the mace? We never see the wielder and it suits his purposes: "It will serve." I don't think we ever saw anything to suggest that Bayaz' "mana burn" illnesses were anything but legit. Suxpool fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Jun 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 07:31
|
|
|
One thing I've been wondering about is, if magic is running out of the world... What's gonna happen with all the magic people, the super powered cannibals and long lived mages that rule it from behind the scenes, they are immortal thanks to magic, but when it's gone... will they die, at once, or just keep growing old and then die? I guess Bayaz might be an exception now since he's got that orb that is the only thing that can supply new magic into the world. He did look younger from channeling the magic it was said.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 13:06
|
|
|
Regarding the decline of magic the implication I got was that easily accessible magic is fleeing the world, thus Bayaz and other mages being quite limited in what they can do based on more mundane "Art" as taught by Juvens, and spirits also leaving the world. Energy to power magic is still available but it seems to require either Eating or tampering with the seals to the demonic world as Bayaz executed successfully. Basically if one wants power, one needs to break the first or second law to get it. I really can't overstate how much I loved Bayaz' character in the trilogy. The fake out by Abercrombie worked perfectly on me since he plays so well on Fantasy wizard tropes. Everyone knows wizards are "subtle and quick to anger" so him being an angry jerk is readily excused. Wizards need to toy with dangerous powers to defeat a greater evil so all the warnings about The Seed were dismissed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 15:56
|
|
|
His Divine Shadow posted:One thing I've been wondering about is, if magic is running out of the world... What's gonna happen with all the magic people, the super powered cannibals and long lived mages that rule it from behind the scenes, they are immortal thanks to magic, but when it's gone... will they die, at once, or just keep growing old and then die? I guess Bayaz might be an exception now since he's got that orb that is the only thing that can supply new magic into the world. He did look younger from channeling the magic it was said. He can't touch it at will though. He channeled the energies. Presumably he will have to get Ferro pregnant, somehow.  With a demon perhaps? I feel sorry for the demon.Suxpool posted:I don't think we ever saw anything to suggest that Bayaz' "mana burn" illnesses were anything but legit. I had assumed he woke up during the fight and seized the opportunity. There was no hint of a third bandit and the only suspect that was behind Jezal was Bayaz. Why would a bad guy hit Jezal in the jaw with a mace from behind, why not just brain him? Seem suspicious to me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 15:56
|
|
|
Collateral posted:I had assumed he woke up during the fight and seized the opportunity. There was no hint of a third bandit and the only suspect that was behind Jezal was Bayaz. Why would a bad guy hit Jezal in the jaw with a mace from behind, why not just brain him? Seem suspicious to me. I didn't see anything that made me take that sequence at anything other than, er, face value (sorry).
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 18:10
|
|
|
ZekeNY posted:I didn't see anything that made me take that sequence at anything other than, er, face value (sorry). Same I'd have to re-read that section to be sure but I thought there was still a bandit not dead that he forgot about when he was celebrating killing 2 of them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2017 00:00
|
|
|
Didn't Jezal lose some of his teeth from that encounter? He never really mentions it for the rest of the series, whereas Glokta is always bothering about his lost teeth. Didn't seem like Bayaz would want the new king to have a disfigured face.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2017 01:13
|
|
|
Destro posted:Same I'd have to re-read that section to be sure but I thought there was still a bandit not dead that he forgot about when he was celebrating killing 2 of them. Yeah and Malacus supposedly brained the third one with their cooking pot. I think the theory is bunk but idk
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2017 01:14
|
|
|
Ccs posted:Didn't Jezal lose some of his teeth from that encounter? He never really mentions it for the rest of the series, whereas Glokta is always bothering about his lost teeth. quote:Didn't seem like Bayaz would want the new king to have a disfigured face.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2017 01:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 11:24 |
|
|
Suxpool posted:Judging from the reactions I've gotten from my friends that have read the trilogy, you're pretty weird. I am too I guess because that's exactly how I feel about Abercrombie's books. There's no such thing as a classic archetypal good guy in the First Law world. Everybody's just acting out of their own motivations. I guess I'm just a huge cynic because that makes these books feel very true to life for me. well, if someone's ongoing actions cause an incredible amount of suffering, of which they really ought to be aware, and what they're trying to do isn't in fact worse than what their opponent is (and as far as i can tell bayaz is happy just being a really powerful puppet-master), i don't think it can be said that person can be said to be too morally grey. i also didn't get the 'capitalism is evil' message someone above mentioned so maybe my readings are very divergent.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2017 13:08
|
|