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Stato-Masochist posted:This is kind of what I was getting at. Sure, the show beats you over the head now and then, but in other instances it doesn't really tell you how to feel on a political level. It just presents you with the current reality. Like, it shows a psychotically strung-out mother, but it doesn't make you infer any policy initiatives from that picture. Anything you might assume is pure projection. It invokes an issue that is surely intwined with politics, but there's no suggested remedy in the depiction. I dunno what got into me but I'm surprised I want to articulate how pissed off that scene made me. I worked with vets for a long time and will be working with them again. I think Lynch opened up a can of worms (that is very political right now that very smart clinicians and researchers are trying to solve) in a really shoddy manner, that did get political (gently caress Chad) in a show featuring Michael Cera doing a Brando impersonation. And I know that behind the camera, Lynch is waving TM as the solution in my face. It seems to belittle such a large issue in a show that later revels in a mythos regarding the atomic bomb and an evil dimension/beings. Thus my comment about this being a variety show. It just makes me think Lynch is a doddering fool because this season is a mess to me (it has great moments and aspects, but that are not the majority right now). But I understand and can agree with you too. There is a lot of projection going on with me, but I think Lynch knows better and expects it since it's something so consciously on people's minds and political.
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Jul 2, 2017 14:00
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I was talkng about the "1-1-9!" lady, but your point's well taken. I think you're referring to Truman's wife? And yes, gently caress Chad.
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Jul 2, 2017 15:50
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Let's not cut out Mark Frost here, whose Twitter avatar is FDR and is a general lefty. Per one of the podcasts, he gets worked up about insane radio hosts, which we've now seen two of.
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Jul 2, 2017 16:05
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Zmej posted:I think Lynch opened up a can of worms (that is very political right now that very smart clinicians and researchers are trying to solve) in a really shoddy manner, that did get political (gently caress Chad) in a show featuring Michael Cera doing a Brando impersonation. And I know that behind the camera, Lynch is waving TM as the solution in my face. What are talking about? You're jumping over 12 buses to get to that conclusion, buddy.
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Jul 2, 2017 16:24
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Stato-Masochist posted:I was talkng about the "1-1-9!" lady, but your point's well taken. I think you're referring to Truman's wife? And yes, gently caress Chad. Yea, I meant Truman's wife. It does demonstrate how one dimensional the hysterical women stereotype is since I misinterpreted who you were referring too due to how both are just "hysterical woman #1 or #2" with no other personality features. Also, I am probably giving Lynch too much credit since Mark Frost is writing the show too. I don't know Mark Frost as well as Lynch inside and outside his works.
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Jul 2, 2017 16:33
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It is hard to suss out what is Lynch and what is Frost. But we should remember that the most important stuff BY FAR - the visual world of the film, the tenor of the acting, the timing/pacing, the idiosyncratic (often static) camerawork, the fact that this is LYNCH'S WORLD very demonstrably and clearly by the way people express themselves. The sounds, especially as well, are almost all Lynch. What is a film, ultimately, but a presentation of visuals and sounds, in the end. I mean, can you imagine how short the script for Episode 8 was? I am not trying to say that Frost's contributions as writer/exec producer aren't significant, but that what we are seeing and hearing and experiencing is ultimately Lynch's vision of the words and the worlds, not Frost's.
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Jul 2, 2017 16:59
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Zmej posted:Yea, I meant Truman's wife. It does demonstrate how one dimensional the hysterical women stereotype is since I misinterpreted who you were referring too due to how both are just "hysterical woman #1 or #2" with no other personality features. yeah those two women are completely the same and have no distinguishing character traits - you, an insane misogynist
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Jul 2, 2017 17:13
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kaworu posted:It is hard to suss out what is Lynch and what is Frost. But we should remember that the most important stuff BY FAR - the visual world of the film, the tenor of the acting, the timing/pacing, the idiosyncratic (often static) camerawork, the fact that this is LYNCH'S WORLD very demonstrably and clearly by the way people express themselves. The sounds, especially as well, are almost all Lynch. What is a film, ultimately, but a presentation of visuals and sounds, in the end.
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Jul 2, 2017 17:29
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I think it's pretty futile to try and project Lynch's personal agenda onto the script. Inland Empire wasn't noticeably influenced by TM, and I doubt Twin Peaks will be. Trying to remove Mark Frost from Twin Peaks is also absurd. He is clearly pretty heavily into all the occult numbers stuff just based on the book. Who's to say that he didn't insert all this contemporary political stuff?
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Jul 2, 2017 18:12
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Jul 2, 2017 18:17
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kaworu posted:I mean, can you imagine how short the script for Episode 8 was? Oh the atomic bomb test...uh.. ok I get it. It exploded OK I get it. Move to the next scene already! Oh woodsmen .. ok.. around that convience store, yep, doing anything? No? Just annoying strobes? Ok Zzzzzzz Oh the giant! Now we're getting somewhere....god dammit are we going to have to watch those scenes again because he is? I know this show wasn't written episodic and it shows. This could have been done in far less time. It feels like David Lynch's style is like an ingredient in cooking. It adds something to the dish, but when it's all you taste in the entire meal, it's not as good. But I know, I know, Lynch can do no wrong, fix your heart or die 
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Jul 2, 2017 20:45
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The Merkinman posted:Seriously. My girlfriend and I were legit bored through most of episode 8. Lmaoing at you and your girlfriend's apparent double digit IQs Maybe you should go watch Arrow or the Big Bang Theory which is the television equivalent of a mother jangling their keys to entertain their bored crying baby on a long bus ride I bet you are the same kind of pleb who would complain about reading Pynchon or DFW and how it isnt as easy to understand as the latest Stephen King or Wilbur Smith novel I feel sorry for you
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Jul 2, 2017 20:51
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Lmaoing at you and your girlfriend's apparent double digit IQs Cool, thanks for proving my point that no one is allowed to be critical of anything on this show.
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Jul 2, 2017 21:07
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The Merkinman posted:Oh the atomic bomb test...uh.. ok I get it. It exploded OK I get it. Move to the next scene already! Film is not a slideshow. There is a difference in meaning between something happening slowly and something happening quickly. Cooper gets shot very suddenly. It's shocking and viscerally satisfying. For one moment. Then we realise that it's not gonna be this easy, and that Cooper is connected to forces beyond human understanding. Shooting him won't solve anything. The atomic bomb test goes on forever, and we see its effects on a very detailed level. It's shown that this detonation somehow either creates or frees the scorched hobos who revived Cooper. Potentially, the explosion is even the origin of BOB. Y'know, the big bad. So, it may take longer than Cooper getting shot, but its effects are more meaningful to the episode. One of the ways in which this is conveyed is the amount of time dedicated to it. The Merkinman posted:Cool, thanks for proving my point that no one is allowed to be critical of anything on this show. I don't know what you were expecting. Your post makes it seem like you've got a pitifully short attention span. 
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Jul 2, 2017 21:15
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And More posted:I don't know what you were expecting. Your post makes it seem like you've got a pitifully short attention span. But no, everything here is absolutes. You either cream yourself from the perfection of every episode, or are a literal baby.
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Jul 2, 2017 21:25
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The Merkinman posted:Cool, thanks for proving my point that no one is allowed to be critical of anything on this show. *posts in the thread for said show, expecting people to take you seriously for some reason* *gets called out on your bullshit* "WELL I'M SOOOOOOOOOO SORRY FOR SAYING THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING GOOD ABOUT THE SHOW. WHAT, I'M NOT ALLOWED TO BE CRITICAL OF IT?"
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Jul 2, 2017 21:29
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stanovich posted:The Twin Peaks podcast called "Diane" is the best one in terms of 'getting it' and not resorting to lazy 'WTF was that' takes all the time. They're the best and I hope more people tune into it. I'm not personally involved with them in any way. Thanks, this podcast helped me sift through and coalesce my own interpretations of the episode's events and cosmology. Will continue listening for the rest of the season. And More posted:Film is not a slideshow. There is a difference in meaning between something happening slowly and something happening quickly. Cooper gets shot very suddenly. It's shocking and viscerally satisfying. For one moment. Then we realise that it's not gonna be this easy, and that Cooper is connected to forces beyond human understanding. Shooting him won't solve anything. I don't know if the atomic bomb was the origin of Bob, or the release of him as a pre-existing ancient evil entity. Because the giant recognized him and then discharged Laura Palmer as the operational opposition or counterpoint to him. I loved the slow-motion dive into the mushroom cloud and seeing the forces at work, it was beautiful and brilliant. The atomic bomb test has been used countless times in movies as the reason for some kind of mutation or visitation but in this story it seems to have opened some kind of rift that allowed access to a different kind of evil. Speaking of slideshows, I really liked that the giant viewed Earth on an old movie screen. To me it says that he and his lady friend exist in a higher dimension than our own (ie outside of our concept of time and space). Binary Logic fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jul 2, 2017 |
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Jul 2, 2017 21:31
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The Merkinman posted:Cool, thanks for proving my point that no one is allowed to be critical of anything on this show. Please be critical. That would be interesting. "I don't have the attention span for this show" is not a criticism, or interesting, or worth talking about.
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Jul 2, 2017 21:33
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I really liked the episode a lot, but I understand if people found it boring. It was a very slow sequence which is kinda funny given the context and timeframe it was nested in.
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Jul 2, 2017 21:36
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Binary Logic posted:I don't know if the atomic bomb was the origin of Bob, or the release of him as a pre-existing ancient evil entity. Because the giant recognized him and then discharged Laura Palmer as the operational opposition or counterpoint to him. For me, the jury's still out on this. I don't think it's clear what Laura is or why she was created. It was clearly a response to BOB, but I'm not sure it was a counterpoint exactly.
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Jul 2, 2017 21:36
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:*finds nothing redeeming about a show loved by many* Well see this makes me understand where miscommunication happened. I do like the show, just not the length of those particular scenes in the most recent episode. I didn't mention anything positive that I agreed with because so many already had, but I see how not saying as much was detremental to my post.
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Jul 2, 2017 21:38
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The Merkinman posted:Seriously. My girlfriend and I were legit bored through most of episode 8. It's telling that your reaction to these events was boredom rather than trying to understand what it means in the context of the show. After all, it's not random - it was focused on for almost the entire episode for a reason. There are two things that corroborate this: 1) Dougie Coop saying "Make sense of it." Basically telling the audience to put the pieces together themselves: create your own interpretations. 2) Lynch giving fans the directive "Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." Pay attention to what's shown to you, not what's missing. Maybe give the episode another watch and try to find meaning for yourself. Or just give up and blame the show for your disinterest.
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Jul 2, 2017 21:41
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The Merkinman posted:It's almost as if there is a very large middle ground between the duration of a gun shot and the duration of that explosion scene. That entirely depends on the framing. In the Matrix, one bullet being shot can take a really long time. If the hero in a different action flick lobs a grenade into a room, it's so casual, you might not even see the explosion. I was trying to engage with your argument. If you refuse to actually argue, there is very little to talk about, though. Binary Logic posted:I don't know if the atomic bomb was the origin of Bob, or the release of him as a pre-existing ancient evil entity. Because the giant recognized him and then discharged Laura Palmer as the operational opposition or counterpoint to him. Yeah, it's not entirely clear to me at this point. There is no doubt in my mind, though, that it's a more fundamentally important event than some kind of splatter film monster being born. This is definitely also one effect of the slowness. We get these seemingly casual strolls that are actually representative of cosmic events. Stuff like that wouldn't work if the giant just jogged or something. And More fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jul 2, 2017 |
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Jul 2, 2017 21:43
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There's two different parts of me. One was gripped by episode 8. The atomic bomb sequence was incredible and the convenience store/"got a light" stuff was genuinely disturbing. The willingness to linger on each part let's the horror wash over you. The other part of me, which came a day or two after watching it, was annoyed by the sequence in context of the greater whole of the series right now. Questions I have that are gonna have to wait: Was it really necessary for Twin Peaks' story? Was there a more effective way to weave this in so we can get to baby Coop's awakening and the characters I like? So I can understand being bored because part of me was while another part was able to drink in the spectacle and "horror" conveyed.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:16
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Zmej posted:So I can understand being bored because part of me was while another part was able to drink in the spectacle and "horror" conveyed. While I do understand that some people could find this boring, it's not really a good point of criticism. Take the opening from Once Upon a Time in the West as an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QML28YQBvyc These people wait and wait, only to be killed moments after the scene ends. Their life is monotonous, but it can all be over in an instant. This could be conveyed more "effectively" through -let's say- narration, but you wouldn't actually experience it the way you do when you sit in the theatre and just wait with them. You get the point. Boiling such a scene down to: "They're waiting for the train. Ok Zzzzzzz" doesn't do it justice. The scene serves its purpose beautifully, and couldn't have been filmed any other way. I have to assume David Lynch thought of alternatives, and didn't find them as effective. edit: Let's also not forget that we got a delicious cliffhanger when the doppelganger got shot. Is that sufficiently dead for the real Cooper to wake up? I can't wait to find out.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:25
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Zmej posted:There's two different parts of me. One was gripped by episode 8. The atomic bomb sequence was incredible and the convenience store/"got a light" stuff was genuinely disturbing. The willingness to linger on each part let's the horror wash over you.  I'm a big Lynch fan and I'm loving this show and really liked the episode, but at the same time some of those scenes did felt a bit too long and I also feel a bit annoyed that the main plot barely advanced and etc Anyway, I don't think that getting bored with one episode that was really very unique means that the guy is a dumb baby who should go watch TBBT instead. People can enjoy things differently you know, calm down Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Jul 2, 2017 |
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Jul 2, 2017 22:30
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I thought it was brilliant and loved it but do agree that it was a bit *too* slow perhaps during the scenes in the White Lodge or wherever that was with the Giant and the Lady. Otherwise I felt the pacing was fine and served the amazing imagery well. I think if you didn't like it *at all* that, yeah, maybe this isn't the show for you and Lynch may not be your thing. If you liked it but thought this particular instance was a bit too slow, I mostly disagree but can respect that opinion.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:38
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Catching back up on the thread has me thinking about the scenes with Frank and his wife again. Before the reveal about their son's suicide, they obviously come across as a cliched "husband who's just putting up with a stereotypical nagging wife" type deal. However, introducing the knowledge of the suicide, I wonder if that changes the reading? If Truman's aware of how their son's death affected his wife, it feels less like he's knowingly putting up with "nagging" and... I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. Like, if it's some hosed up way of trying to be "there" for her in her effort to control the things in her life she that can't possibly, or if it's maybe somehow turning himself into something of a lightning rod for her anxieties over that lack of control surfaced in the death of their son. I should go back and rewatch those scenes with that in mind.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:39
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The Merkinman posted:But I know, I know, Lynch can do no wrong, fix your heart or die I'm a big David Lynch fan and Twin Peaks fan, and I firmly believe that David Lynch can do a lot of wrong. He can do stuff that outright sucks. He can do stuff that is outright cringe worthy and really painful to watch. I think he's a bit of a dork. I think he's an over-privileged fop who is as derivative as he's predictable. But that's why I like him. Most media these days falls into two categories. One, win me awards. Two, make me a lot of money. Lynch isn't either of those and that's why me and a lot of other people like him. He's a bumbling fool making art because he got lucky and because he can and that's great, that's a great thing that is both rare and heart warming. It's really nice that this brand new series of Twin Peaks : The Return exists because it's the kind of thing that shouldn't happen. Lynch's stuff is like that, it shouldn't be there. There shouldn't be a film about a dude going to see his dying brother on a tractor, there shouldn't be a three hour exploration of Laura Dern being scared and weird, there shouldn't be a prime time TV show that is this glorious lump of pudding. It defies the odds of a very stale and stable media environment that there's this overgrown child having fun in some part of it. That's what's great about it. That's what great about you not liking it. That's what's great about all of the stupid internet arguments about it. It's so silly and strange and wonderful that something like this exists. Yeah guys, let's have a meaningful critique about frogroach mouth girl and the inside of a bomb and doppelgangers and tree arm evolution thing and scooby doo and all of that. Yay! What's the alternative? Twin Peaks : The Return on Showtime.tv owns the loving face off a baby seal and by merely arguing against it you're being a big meany who doesn't like cool poo poo and also you'd probably spend your life imprisoned in a concrete box by choice because the only way your dick can get hard is through existential certainty.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:45
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Every "prestige" TV show feels the same after watching 8 episodes of this.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:48
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Considering most of the episode after the NIN performance was bewildering insanity, I didn't find it "slow."
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Jul 2, 2017 22:57
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And More posted:These people wait and wait, only to be killed moments after the scene ends. Their life is monotonous, but it can all be over in an instant. This could be conveyed more "effectively" through -let's say- narration, but you wouldn't actually experience it the way you do when you sit in the theatre and just wait with them.
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Jul 2, 2017 23:02
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I have good news: there will be more episodes of the show.
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Jul 2, 2017 23:13
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Breadallelogram posted:I have good news: there will be more episodes of the show. Yeah but not for another excruciating week.
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Jul 2, 2017 23:14
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CJacobs posted:Yeah but not for another excruciating week. It seems intentional that the most out-of-left-field sequence of scenes in the show's history precedes a two-week break in the season.
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Jul 2, 2017 23:16
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The Merkinman posted:
Enjoy it as you can (or don't) But for me, there hasn't been a show like this, where I watched episodes 2-3 times again a couple of days later because I couldn't figure it out enough. I enjoyed it on every re-watch and figured out a little bit more bravo Lynch
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Jul 2, 2017 23:29
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Zmej posted:I can totally understand the need for the monotony in that scene when it builds up to their death. I don't see that kind of build up from episode 8 leading to some crescendo or pulling the rug from under my feet. Episode 8 was this really intense imagery that wasn't boring, but it kinda got dull due to it's sensory overload. Maybe that's the point, but I was overloaded pretty quickly and lost its punch. I know Bob showing up was the "crescendo" but longer images of inside fire explosions didn't really heighten that scene for me. The opening quiet, black and white pan into the loud inferno definitely worked for me though. The more traditional black and white effects were pretty cool since I like how abstract they are, since the episode is dealing with abstract stuff, like evil/good and black/white lodge. Honestly, you sum up the things that happen in that scene pretty well. I think there are two rug-pulls here, though. The first one is that I've never seen a film actually take me so close to the nuclear bomb detonation. This justifies the moments of the camera just tumbling through chaos and swirling upwards through the smoke for me. It's a new way of looking at things. The second rug-pull is the abrupt cut to the convenience store. Seeing that place immediately evokes the entire mythical background of the show. We're no longer simply awed, we can start piecing things together by this point. That's partially why I think the numbing effect is necessary. You can't just stay awed forever, you have to get analytical for the scene to have meaning.
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Jul 3, 2017 00:22
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And More posted:That's partially why I think the numbing effect is necessary. You can't just stay awed forever, you have to get analytical for the scene to have meaning. That's interesting actually, we seem to be approaching it in different ways for analysis. I avoid analyzing Lynch's work or most films/TV. Generally I'm trying to let the feeling wash over me and focus on what it invoked and analyze what brought that out to understand the intention, character or plot. So for you (if I'm understanding this correctly) the parts I find less palatable or kinda dull due to the length/structure are because I got my emotional whatever out of it. But for you the length, sensory overload, monotony whatever are part of his narrative/intention which no dialogue can really convey. I guess that's why some people love watching baby Coop doodle for minutes on end and I'm kinda over it after the second time he did it. I guess I'm trying to be more open minded since I feel in the minority about the show right now.
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Jul 3, 2017 01:31
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This past weekend, I got to watch the new season with someone who finally caught up with everything - even reading the whole Secret History book in a day, because they got really into it. We watched the first two episodes one night, then the other six the next day nearly one after the other. When you watch it like that - more like a film, which is kinda how Lynch described the season - you can see the through-lines more clearly. In particular, Dougie Coop's progression from veritable newborn to where he is in episode 7 is much more noticeable when viewing the episodes in direct succession (the person I was watching it with pointed out multiple times that they felt Coop was getting closer to normal). This might change with new episodes, but so far I'm getting the feeling this season will be best viewed in chunks of episodes rather than one at a time.
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Jul 3, 2017 01:38
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TheMaestroso posted:This past weekend, I got to watch the new season with someone who finally caught up with everything - even reading the whole Secret History book in a day, because they got really into it. We watched the first two episodes one night, then the other six the next day nearly one after the other. When you watch it like that - more like a film, which is kinda how Lynch described the season - you can see the through-lines more clearly. In particular, Dougie Coop's progression from veritable newborn to where he is in episode 7 is much more noticeable when viewing the episodes in direct succession (the person I was watching it with pointed out multiple times that they felt Coop was getting closer to normal). This might change with new episodes, but so far I'm getting the feeling this season will be best viewed in chunks of episodes rather than one at a time. e: Also, this new Criterion documentary David Lynch: The Art Life is on Amazon Prime now, if you need your Sunday night Lynching since there's no new Twin Peaks tonight. I'm starting to watch it now. Rageaholic fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 02:26
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