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Bakanogami posted:In fairness, Apocrypha doesn't have the most noble origins either. They wanted to make some sort of online game but the plan failed. All they were left with was a bunch of random character designs, so they somehow pieced them together into a book series. I'm pretty sure what Apocrypha was intended to be more or less what Grand Order became Anyway, show talk: I was kind of worried that Astolfo and Frankie would damage the "feeling," of this show. Stay Night and Zero have a certain heavyness to them, an air of gravitas and maturity in their presentation and tone that I thought would be incompatible with those two in particular. Grand Order and the Extra Games see this problem crop up a lot, but with them its less of an issue because they're so radically different from the "main," works that it doesn't really do any harm for them to experiment and indulge in stuff that wouldn't be appropriate for the main line. But Apocrypha is only a single historical event changed from being the same world as the main story, so it seemed like a danger. Thus far at least, there hasn't been any problem with the show staying faithful to its predecessors on the whole,. and those two have not done anything to stick out, so to speak. I admit, I was kind of subconsciously relieved when Astolfo let the facade of his genki-ness drop for a second when his master was molesting him because he was tired of her poo poo, seeing that he was capable of being serious for even a moment was nice. Frankenstein's Monster has at least been inoffensive thus far, and I liked the still frame showing her creation as it really gave a strong impression of faithfulness to the source. We'll see if they can keep it up.
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Jul 14, 2017 05:51
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A lot of the newer designs and guest artists definitely clash with the very strong and fairly simple visual design Takeuchi started with in FSN/Zero but I think having a lighter set of characters without descending into atonal madness will be cool. Carnival Phantasm doesn't count because A) it's clearly a parody/comedy show and B) it rules.
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Jul 14, 2017 09:46
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There really needs to be another Carnival Phantasm, that opens with the cast of Tsukihime going off on vacation because Shiro's new friends are completely insane.
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Jul 14, 2017 11:03
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Bakanogami posted:In fairness, Apocrypha doesn't have the most noble origins either. They wanted to make some sort of online game but the plan failed. All they were left with was a bunch of random character designs, so they somehow pieced them together into a book series. I mean Kemono friends was an anime released after the death of a failed mobile game and it was fantastic, the formula behind everything is fine anyways. Mordred and Sisigo are my favorite pair don't you dare tell me they aren't the main protagonists.
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Jul 14, 2017 15:46
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C-SPAN Caller posted:Got to say I absolutely could not stand all Fate works I've ever glanced at before this one, but for whatever reason the concept and execution of this one just really grips me. Probably helps its not about a dimensionless guy and based on an erotic visual novel with multiple branching paths and is just a 5 part light novel series. Fun fact: the current version of FSN has no Sex and the three routes are sold as separate, linear games.
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Jul 14, 2017 15:50
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From what I read, I can see why people are going to be disappointed with Apoc due to expectations.
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Jul 14, 2017 15:54
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Blaze Dragon posted:EDIT: I found the worst tweet
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Jul 14, 2017 16:24
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I was expecting Mordred to be a lame edgier version of Saber but I'm really won over by her constantly patting Sisigo on the back and being like "Well Dad, whaddya think? Did I do okay??  "
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Jul 14, 2017 16:44
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Also Mordred's hitting him pretty hard. He stumbles a bit from the "back pats" and when his hand is slapped instead of the expected handshake after the summons, he waves his hand around a bit.
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Jul 14, 2017 16:50
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Kylra posted:Also Mordred's hitting him pretty hard. He stumbles a bit from the "back pats" and when his hand is slapped instead of the expected handshake after the summons, he waves his hand around a bit. Well, she does have 40 times normal human strength.
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Jul 14, 2017 16:58
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Cephas posted:"Well Dad, whaddya think? Did I do okay?? You can deduce something about the Mordred attitude toward Arturia
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Jul 14, 2017 16:59
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"Nobody is allowed to destroy father's kingdom but me!"
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Jul 14, 2017 17:02
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Cephas posted:I was expecting Mordred to be a lame edgier version of Saber but I'm really won over by her constantly patting Sisigo on the back and being like "Well Dad, whaddya think? Did I do okay?? By all accounts Mordred is a good girl and a huge nerd and it is merely that Saber is a bad father who didn't recognize that.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:02
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Bakanogami posted:By all accounts Mordred is a good girl and a huge nerd and it is merely that Saber is a bad father who didn't recognize that. TBF, I don't even know if Saber did know she was her daughter.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:03
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Apparently Saber didn't know Mordred was her daughter until recently before her downfall, because Saber's evil sister made a baby clone (Mordred) in secret. And Mordred thinks Saber hates her because she's a clone baby, not because Saber thinks she wasn't ready to take the throne.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:06
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quote:"Hey, so father! Father! When do I start getting training on how to lead the country?" Actual (paraphrased) conversation between King of Knights and her homunculus daughter-son.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:07
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Bakanogami posted:By all accounts Mordred is a good girl and a huge nerd and it is merely that Saber is a bad father who didn't recognize that. Much like with Lancelot she was too distant with Mordred who clearly just wants to be recognized and that made her very rash about how to prove herself to her dad.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:07
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C-SPAN Caller posted:I mean Kemono friends was an anime released after the death of a failed mobile game and it was fantastic, the formula behind everything is fine anyways. Sadly they're not. Look at the opening and ending and the real protagonists should be pretty obvious. This is kinda what pissed people off about Apocrypha.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:18
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Tae posted:Apparently Saber didn't know Mordred was her daughter until recently before her downfall, because Saber's evil sister made a baby clone (Mordred) in secret. And Mordred thinks Saber hates her because she's a clone baby, not because Saber thinks she wasn't ready to take the throne. This is accurate. Mordred thought she was rejected because Arthur hated Morgan, but in fact she was rejected because she wasn't suited to be king by Saber's standards/philosophies on kingship. This misunderstanding led to Mordred's attempt to usurp the throne (when for her entire life before that she had shown no interest in aiding Morgan's machination) because she thought she was being unfairly maligned despite excelling in all areas due to the circumstances of her birth, and above all else wanted to show Arturia that her bias was mistaken. This also explains why she wouldn't want to be direct referred to as a woman despite not being shy about her body. Its another circumstance of birth that people would unfairly use as an excuse to reject her superior talent. The irony of course is that in fact her father had rejected her explicitly because she wasn't superior in the only area that mattered, Capacity To Be King.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:35
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Note that Mordred can't even conceive the idea of not being worthy of kingship. She goes "yeah no prob I'm totally pulling Caliburn, just gimme the chance to do so"
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Jul 14, 2017 17:41
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"Son, you are never going to be king because you just don't have the proper aptitude for it. "Now, be sure to take good care of running and administrating the country while I'm away on a campaign." Beyond a certain point it's hard to imagine what our dear Seiba thought was going to happen.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:43
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what if it was saber who was the bad king all along
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Jul 14, 2017 17:57
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Pureauthor posted:"Son, you are never going to be king because you just don't have the proper aptitude for it. Did Arthur leave Mordred in charge when she went on her expedition? I've seen a couple people say this but I don't remember seeing it in the source material, just that the coup happened while Saber was gone. I mean, I can believe it if only because there was literally nobody else, since Gawain and Bedivere were with her and everyone else was already gone from Camelot. I guess it was intended to be a sign of trust despite the revelation of her origins, maybe?
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Jul 14, 2017 18:08
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Sanguinia posted:Did Arthur leave Mordred in charge when she went on her expedition? I've seen a couple people say this but I don't remember seeing it in the source material, just that the coup happened while Saber was gone. mordred herself mentions it I think
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Jul 14, 2017 18:10
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Stairmaster posted:what if it was saber who was the bad king all along This isn't the Fate/Zero thread. 
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Jul 14, 2017 20:53
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I could see Mordred being potentially worthy of pulling the sword.
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Jul 15, 2017 00:47
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W.T. Fits posted:This isn't the Fate/Zero thread. yeah, the whole stitch of saber is that she was a TOO MUCH perfect king, at the expence of her human feelings and her relationship with her friends and family
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Jul 15, 2017 01:31
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YggdrasilTM posted:yeah, the whole stitch of saber is that she was a TOO MUCH perfect king, at the expence of her human feelings and her relationship with her friends and family I feel like "maintaining good personal relationships with those around you, at least to the extent they don't start to hate/resent you" is kinda an important part of being a ruler.
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Jul 15, 2017 02:00
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Ytlaya posted:I feel like "maintaining good personal relationships with those around you, at least to the extent they don't start to hate/resent you" is kinda an important part of being a ruler. The hatred and resentment that got built up toward Saber was based on things like "Why isn't she applying the law more selfishly and vindictively, like a normal person would?" Saber's philosophy as a king was to put away all her human feelings and apply the law perfectly, sacrificing all personal desire for the good of the kingdom. And when we say perfectly we don't mean enforcing every mandatory minimum or refusing to show mercy. On the contrary, the biggest blow to her kingdom was the fact that, even though she was forced to sentence Guinevere to death because breaking the vow of wedlock as the Queen was tantamount to treason since it could result in an illegitimate heir, she let Lancelot completely off the hook for his part in the affair because he'd caused her no harm and she knew that Guinevere's reasons for seeking the affair were her fault. By any reasonable person's standards that's a perfect solution, the exact combination of a firm hand for the sake of the kingdom and a forgiving heart for the sake mitigating circumstances. And yet that one decision did more damage to her kingship than any other. It's not as though the people of Camelot spent her entire kingship bemoaning her rule and constantly stewing in resentment. On the contrary, multiple sources that refer to her rule make it clear that the Briton's loved Arthur. And she DID have good personal relationships with those around her. Gawain and Lancelot never shut up about how great she is. Tristan left the court because he thought it was the best way to help Arthur, not out of resentment, and in the end regretted it because he judged that he had mishandled the situation being so blunt and insensitive about how he delivered that help. Guinevere was one of her closest friends and confidants through their sham marriage despite the strain of finding out the brilliant young knight she'd loved for years could never be her husband. Sir Agrivain, the man who exposed the affair, ended up doing it because he loved and respected Arthur so much despite originally being placed in the court as an agent of Morgan that he couldn't stand to let the king's honor be besmirched in such a way. The thing you have to understand about Saber is that her character and life is constructed around the idea that Camelot and herself as its King were a tragic paradox. They were imperfect BECAUSE they were perfect. Nobody could have done better than Saber, and Saber could not have done better than she did, and that was ultimately the problem. In fact, I would even argue that the fall of Camelot came about not because of resentment toward Saber, but because of efforts by those around Saber to emulate her (in much the way Iskander advocates) by making the perfect decision for king and country, except those decisions were each time tragically tainted by the influence of their personal desires. In the end both King and Kingdom were Avalon: The Ever-Distant Utopia.
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Jul 15, 2017 07:18
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stop making posts like that or people will start thinking Fates writing is actually good with compelling characters and cool underlying narratives and themes, instead of the truth which is that it is extremely bad and dumb
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Jul 15, 2017 09:13
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what crawled up your butt
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Jul 15, 2017 09:28
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Pierson posted:stop making posts like that or people will start thinking Fates writing is actually good with compelling characters and cool underlying narratives and themes, instead of the truth which is that it is extremely bad and dumb Just try and stop me! 
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Jul 15, 2017 09:52
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Space Flower posted:what crawled up your butt Crest Worms? Demon tentacles? A mentally-unbalanced teenager? There are so many options!
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Jul 15, 2017 09:54
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Sanguinia posted:Words words words. I enjoyed this post and am glad you made it.
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Jul 15, 2017 10:09
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It also proved Iskander right because everything was great until he died where it fell to poo poo, while everything went to poo poo before Arturia died and she died miserable knowing she failed to protect the Kingdom.
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Jul 15, 2017 10:13
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Eej posted:It also proved Iskander right because everything was great until he died where it fell to poo poo, while everything went to poo poo before Arturia died and she died miserable knowing she failed to protect the Kingdom. "Was right" in what sense? I'm not exactly sure anymore of what was Iskandar point. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Jul 15, 2017 |
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Jul 15, 2017 10:29
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Eej posted:It also proved Iskander right because everything was great until he died where it fell to poo poo, while everything went to poo poo before Arturia died and she died miserable knowing she failed to protect the Kingdom. I would argue that in the end, Iskander and Arturia stood on equal footing insofar as their legacy goes. Arturia's kingdom fell because her knights tried to emulate her but could not because they lacked the ability to reach her "perfection." If Gawain had been capable of forgiving Lancelot like Arthur was, he would have been at Camlann to change its outcome. Mordred not being capable of setting aside her feelings led her to fail twice, first by betraying Arthur and second by unleashing the curse that left both herself and Arthur dead, ensuring that nobody would win the civil war. I could go on, the point is that they tried to emulate a perfect figure, but were flawed, thus they failed, thus the Kingdom fell. Conversely, Iskander represented a flawed figure that his men could SUCCEED in their aspirations to emulate. Whether the self-gratifying self-indulgent tyrant or the brilliant dreamer who is always looking to new horizons, or both, either ideal was something great, but attainable. This sounds better... until you remember WHY Iskander's empire fell after he died. Each one of them who sought to become what the King of Conqueror's represented SUCCEEDED... and thus an Army of Heroes became an Army of Kings of Conquest. Each one of them became the Iskander of his own dreams, set out for their own Horizon, and in the end all destroyed each other. In a perfect counterpoint to Arturia's knights, they tried to emulate a flawed figure, thus they succeeded, thus the Kingdom fell. The only difference between Iskander and Arturia in practical terms if that Iskander does not regret that outcome. And why should he? He's flawed. Arturia is perfect, therefore she's can't NOT regret an imperfect outcome. Hence their conflict. (As I stated in a previous post, Iskander's reaction to seeing Excalibur, the incarnated symbol of Arturia's ideals, being gloom and a complete loss of his previous bravado and certitude that he was right and Saber was contemptible, is what really brings their little waltz into clarity. I love that scene, Iri's little soliloquy, and Iskander and Gil's conversation about it so very much.) In a way its a shame that their final battle on the roadside doesn't resolve that conflict, but in a way it's also perfect, because there IS no resolving that conflict. In the end despite thinking they could not be any more different, they're perhaps the most tragically similar of all Kings.
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Jul 15, 2017 10:37
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Pierson posted:stop making posts like that or people will start thinking Fates writing is actually good with compelling characters and cool underlying narratives and themes, instead of the truth which is that it is extremely bad and dumb Fate's always had big, interesting ideas and a flawed execution, but those big ideas were what kept the fans going. I mean, before it all became about the phone game.
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Jul 15, 2017 11:28
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YggdrasilTM posted:"Was right" in what sense? I'm not exactly sure anymore of what was Iskandar point. Mostly that in the end both of their kingdoms fell (as all kingdoms do) except one of them has no regrets and the other one is a miserable sadsack for centuries. Iskander gets summoned and he goes right about to planning for more conquest with a grin on his face while Arturia is all mopey (and continues to be for at least one more summoning) because of how terrible she feels she hosed everything up.
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Jul 15, 2017 11:57
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Xarbala posted:Fate's always had big, interesting ideas and a flawed execution, but those big ideas were what kept the fans going. Gudako's character and plot far exceeds anything in mainline fate.
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