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Motronic posted:I'm far from a Musk fanboy even though in the context of some of the posters here I'll probably be accused of it: he said early on he wanted to bring this down market, and drat if they aren't. $110k, roadster to a $68k model S ($82k Model X) to a $35k Model 3. The Model 3 sure is down market, in that it looks like total crap inside and out. The Nissan Leaf models that have been out for years, or the Chevy Bolt that came out this year, are much nicer cars for the same price range, the Bolt even has superior battery range.
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Jul 23, 2017 21:40
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fishmech posted:The Model 3 sure is down market, in that it looks like total crap inside and out. The Nissan Leaf models that have been out for years, or the Chevy Bolt that came out this year, are much nicer cars for the same price range, the Bolt even has superior battery range. Does the Volt come with a speedometer placed outside of your peripheral vision
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Jul 23, 2017 21:44
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exploded mummy posted:Does the Volt come with a speedometer placed outside of your peripheral vision Undisruptively, one can see their current speed on the Bolt without having to look into the middle of the dashboard: 
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Jul 23, 2017 21:48
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BrandorKP posted:I'll see if I can find the for you tonight (I'm PST so it'll be late) I think I had a link to the HBR paper where the term was coined in my MIS notes. But yeah what Musk is doing is just normal competition by a business for a high margin luxury market. It's not disuption. Do you think Apple falls in the same category as Tesla?
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Jul 23, 2017 21:49
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asdf32 posted:But did Tesla invent torque? Yes, but then Edison stole it from him.
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Jul 23, 2017 21:51
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GEMorris posted:Lol that people in this thread are arguing that human advancement isn't always incremental. Yeah, incremental doesn't fit this discussion because incremental and innovative are not synonyms. Something can be both incremental and innovative, or simply one or the other. For instance, increasing battery charge capacity by known means may be incremental, but doing so through overcoming current engineering challenges or by using novel materials that save space/weight is incremental innovation. Creating new battery types through entirely new materials or un-mastered physical processes is less incremental but pure innovation.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:17
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Apple's not very secret reason for doing so drat well is its kickass supply chain.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:35
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So innovation is just a new synthesis of knowledge. And the deciding line between "incremental" and "true" innovation seems to be much like the definition of pornography? Every new synthesis is built on the knowledge used to create it, and every new synthesis in turn contributes back to that base of knowledge. This is just the progression of human knowledge. For a thread that is all about deflating hype, a lot of you folks seem to have some sort of fetish for "innovation"
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Jul 23, 2017 22:35
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fishmech posted:The Model 3 sure is down market, in that it looks like total crap inside and out. The Nissan Leaf models that have been out for years, or the Chevy Bolt that came out this year, are much nicer cars for the same price range, the Bolt even has superior battery range. I'm not going into which is better. It exists, it's what was stated they would do. People are preordering the poo poo out of it and, once again, they have a supply can't meet demand situation. It seems they are doing at least a few things right. FYI, the Model S looks like poo poo when compared to other cars in it's price range, but it's obviously selling out too. (outside: dat panel gap....sample to sample differences are hilar-aitrocious. Interior: Almost as good as a high trim model GM with extra glued on unreadable-in-the-sun iPads with 100% less real buttons and knobs that could be used by feel without looking at them).
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Jul 23, 2017 23:01
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Motronic posted:FYI, the Model S looks like poo poo when compared to other cars in it's price range, but it's obviously selling out too. (outside: dat panel gap....sample to sample differences are hilar-aitrocious. Interior: Almost as good as a high trim model GM with extra glued on unreadable-in-the-sun iPads with 100% less real buttons and knobs that could be used by feel without looking at them). The quality difference between my wife's mid-spec Volvo v60 interior and the interior of the Model S is pretty laughable. I think you're being a bit too generous to GM interiors, but yeah, Tesla interiors do not reflect the price point in any way.
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Jul 23, 2017 23:07
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Motronic posted:I'm not going into which is better. It exists, it's what was stated they would do. People are preordering the poo poo out of it and, once again, they have a supply can't meet demand situation. They have a supply that cannot meet demand because they cannot build cars.
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Jul 23, 2017 23:10
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Motronic posted:I'm not going into which is better. It exists, it's what was stated they would do. People are preordering the poo poo out of it and, once again, they have a supply can't meet demand situation. No, I'm pretty sure they didn't state they were going to sell an absolutely terribly designed car for $35,000. Also they're not "preordering the poo poo out of it" they put refundable deposits down that entitle them to pre-order later, that's what "sold" a lot. So they have 500,000 or so of those $1000 "reservations" which you can take back when you decide you don't want to go on to actually placing a hard commitment on a Model 3. Also the supply can't meet demand because Tesla is incompetent at expanding their production lines for the 4th year in a row or something. That means they literally can't do one of the most important parts of being a car manufacturer right - manufacturing cars. The Model S just looks bland, but at least it's still functional. The Model 3 has an actively dangerous display interface for important gauges and controls. Those aren't really comparable things.
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Jul 23, 2017 23:21
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GEMorris posted:The quality difference between my wife's mid-spec Volvo v60 interior and the interior of the Model S is pretty laughable. I think you're being a bit too generous to GM interiors, but yeah, Tesla interiors do not reflect the price point in any way. This is not at all up for argument from me. They are atrocious....but let's be serious....Volvo does pretty well on fit and finish. Trevor Hale posted:They have a supply that cannot meet demand because they cannot build cars. How few constitutes "cannot build"? They did 25k in the first quarter of 2017 according to a very cursory google search.
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Jul 23, 2017 23:22
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GEMorris posted:So innovation is just a new synthesis of knowledge. And the deciding line between "incremental" and "true" innovation seems to be much like the definition of pornography? Yeah basically, except crossed with capitalism. BrandorKP posted:I've been looking for this one to post here for a while:
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Jul 23, 2017 23:41
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Motronic posted:How few constitutes "cannot build"? They did 25k in the first quarter of 2017 according to a very cursory google search. Er, they have a bunch of orders that aren't fulfilled because the cars aren't being built fast enough. I'm not seeing what you disagree with there. And that they built 25k Model S and Model X vehicles doesn't tell you much about how they can build Model 3s which are supposed to be on different lines. Tesla hopes to achieve 80,000 Model 3s produced in 2017, starting with the late June production run that resulted in Elon getting delivery of the first production Model 3 back on July 9, but that's according to them going to be their "perfect production" goal, which includes no delays in the supply chain Separately from this, preparing the Tesla factory for the Model 3 production lines required temporary halts to all Tesla production earlier this year, resulting in delays for S and X orders.
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Jul 24, 2017 00:02
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MiddleOne posted:Again, business as usual when it comes to luxury sport cars. When we are talking about innovation in the context of startups incremental innovation is not enough. To be 'disruptive' something has to be revolutionary and have mass market adoption, it can't just be a slight variation on something that already exist which barely anyone uses. Nobody used the word disruptive until you did. Stop moving the goalposts.
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Jul 24, 2017 01:06
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SpaceX landed a reusable rocket on a platform floating in the ocean. That's loving cool.
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Jul 24, 2017 01:31
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Kobayashi posted:SpaceX landed a reusable rocket on a platform floating in the ocean. That's loving cool. It's really loving hard too. Floating platforms make anything you do on them more complicated.
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Jul 24, 2017 02:48
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Couldn't find the hbr paper I was thinking of. Oh well.
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Jul 24, 2017 04:05
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BrandorKP posted:It's really loving hard too. Floating platforms make anything you do on them more complicated. NASA has been dropping spacecraft in the ocean since the 1960's. Putting a platform between the spacecraft and the ocean isn't innovative. It is just incremental. 
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Jul 24, 2017 04:52
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Tesla probably does deserve credit for making seemingly the first electric car that wasn't a weird, ridiculous hippie thing no one would want to be seen in public driving.
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Jul 24, 2017 06:06
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Inescapable Duck posted:Tesla probably does deserve credit for making seemingly the first electric car that wasn't a weird, ridiculous hippie thing no one would want to be seen in public driving. Yeah. The prevailing take the first time anyone saw the Honda Insight was "I will drive an electric car as soon as they just make a fuckin' Civic that's electric."
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Jul 24, 2017 06:11
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:Yeah. The prevailing take the first time anyone saw the Honda Insight was "I will drive an electric car as soon as they just make a fuckin' Civic that's electric." Which every major manufacturer have realized by now and where for example Volkswagen is coming with an eGolf. Volvo will be all hybrids/electric cars by 2019 and apparently there will be a spinoff brand from Geely/Volvo that will only manufacture electric cars. I have a hard time seeing Teslas competing against the mass production practices of the major car manufacturers in the world.
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Jul 24, 2017 06:57
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i'd love to have a Nissan Leaf tbh
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Jul 24, 2017 10:17
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:i'd love to have a Nissan Leaf tbh Well they are very cheap on the used market... The bigger challenge for electric cars is trying to own/charge on if you don't own a home with off-street parking.
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Jul 24, 2017 12:24
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It's not as cool as driving a GENUINE SIGNED BY ELON TESLA MODEL ELON, but since some here expressed an interest - my blockchain book is finally out, for £4.99 or whatever strange money you Americans use sent as Initial Book Offerings to the Kindlechain! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073CPP581 - available worldwide https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/ - book home page that's non-DRMed Kindle edition; print edition coming (just finalised the cover), Smashwords too when I get around to it (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 24, 2017 12:42
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GEMorris posted:The bigger challenge for electric cars is trying to own/charge on if you don't own a home with off-street parking. Yes, it is a big problem. Even if they do get the price down on electric cars to be cost competitive with normal cars, there is the problem of building car charging infrastructure to rival the convenience of gas stations. Building out the infrastructure takes time, which is why the comment made earlier in the thread: "Tesla isn't a start-up--it's been around since 2003!" is moronic. Not all industries can move as fast as information technology.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:05
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silence_kit posted:Yes, it is a big problem. Even if they do get the price down on electric cars to be cost competitive with normal cars, there is the problem of building car charging infrastructure to rival the convenience of gas stations.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:31
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Why not have gas stations add electric charging or battery changing stations?
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Jul 24, 2017 16:42
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Inescapable Duck posted:Why not have gas stations add electric charging or battery changing stations? Gas stations are located and designed for people to stop in for ten minutes in the middle of a trip, not a couple of hours at the beginning or end of a trip.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:57
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Inescapable Duck posted:Why not have gas stations add electric charging or battery changing stations? It takes 10 minutes to refuel a car It takes 10 hours to charge a Tesla
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Jul 24, 2017 16:59
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Cicero posted:Workplaces are probably only ever going to make so many parking spaces have chargers. Workplaces will get rid of chargers once the "average" employee can start getting electric cars. The combined cost (ie: hidden benefit to employees) to supply power will get too high. Also taxman will start cracking down on it claiming it's a taxable benefit, and not a business expense and all hell will break loose in HR trying to account for it.
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Jul 24, 2017 18:04
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Inescapable Duck posted:Why not have gas stations add electric charging or battery changing stations? Here's where the battery is on a modern electric car, seen through a cutaway view:  How do you replace that in a similar time to running a fuel pump? Hell, how do you manage it in an hour? As for just adding electric charging, you're going to need a lot of extra space for people to sit and park for quite a while, even using very fast charging stations and only using them to bring your battery from 20% to 60% so you can get home, or something. Also for perspective, with the amount of energy contained in gasoline, and how fuel pumps in the US usually dispense at 10 gallons per minute (the legal maximum for most gas station pumps in this country). Each gallon of gasoline contains approximately 33 kilowatthours of energy, so that's a dispensing rate of about 330 kilowatthours per minute. Only like 75% of the energy is usable in modern engines of course, so that looks like 250 kilowatthours of energy in total delivered in that minute. That's effectively a flow rate of 15 megawatts for the time the car's filling. You know what's currently being proposed for near-future charging rates for electric cars? 350 kilowatts, 500 kilowatts, maybe 1 megawatt to attempt to use with very large vehicles like buses and trucks that would have massive battery banks and higher quality wiring to handle the sheer flow.
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Jul 24, 2017 18:42
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fishmech posted:higher quality wiring quality is a bit subjective, itd likely be lower gauge wire for higher current capacity
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Jul 24, 2017 18:52
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unknown posted:Workplaces will get rid of chargers once the "average" employee can start getting electric cars. Our chargers take credit cards and are run by the company that manages our parking garage. The free charger will go the way of the dodo though. They'll be run in such a way that your employer will get a small cut of any profits, so they'll put them everywhere. In California electric cars are pretty much affordable for everyone if you can get a charge at home. Leases (how you should get an electric car) tend to be around $100/mo (fiat 500 and the spark ev at the ones I've seen cheapest, but I suspect leafs are cheap too) with no down payment due to subsidies. Used leafs are really cheap. They're pretty common here. City is also starting to install pay chargers where parallel parking is allowed, which will make them more practical for many people. nm fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 19:02
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exploded mummy posted:It takes 10 hours to charge a Tesla the superchargers take like 30 minutes. if electric cars in general get more popular there will be gas stations that add electric chargers, particularly on highway stations and such. Battery changing is probably never gonna happen, or at least not until the future where nobody owns their own car because we just rent the fully-autonomous cars for everything. Otherwise there's just too many insoluble problems with battery life, compatibility, and who "owns" the battery pack. I definitely agree that a tesla or other electric car doesn't make sense for anyone that needs to do lots of high-milage driving. OTOH if you live somewhere like the north east US, 250 miles gets you between a lot of places. edit: fishmech posted:Only like 75% of the energy is usable in modern engines of course Klyith fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 19:03
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fishmech posted:Here's where the battery is on a modern electric car, seen through a cutaway view: Like this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY&t=61s
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Jul 24, 2017 19:07
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fishmech posted:Here's where the battery is on a modern electric car, seen through a cutaway view: Electric cars excel at the future urban car market, which is basically autodriving fleets that you request on your phone and which when return to some vertically stacking warehouse to juice up when not in use. As for rurals and suburbanites, who gives a poo poo.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:07
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:i'd love to have a Nissan Leaf tbh They're pretty cool if you can live with the range limitation. They're extremely cheap right now, too, due to an outgoing model combined with state and federal incentives. I got a new S for under $5k cause it also had a bunch of hail damage lol quote:I definitely agree that a tesla or other electric car doesn't make sense for anyone that needs to do lots of high-milage driving. OTOH if you live somewhere like the north east US, 250 miles gets you between a lot of places. Huh? Teslas are amazing for high mileage driving, you can get 250 miles or so in 30 minutes and there are Superchargers loving everywhere. Seriously, most interstate and many non-interstate highway corridors are already Supercharger-ized, I see them in rural Wyoming and Montana and poo poo. They've also got a huge network of Tesla Destination chargers where Tesla pays for installation of ~6-10kW "Level 2" chargers at hotels and restaurants. I would far, far prefer the government be building these things, but I can't bring myself to say that a private company building literal infrastructure nationwide isn't impressive. Space Gopher posted:Gas stations are located and designed for people to stop in for ten minutes in the middle of a trip, not a couple of hours at the beginning or end of a trip. drat, there's a lot of people who don't know much about this poo poo pretending like they do here. There are shitloads of DC fast chargers (fills my Leaf from zero to 80% in thirty minutes) all across the West Coast and Colorado. Washington and Oregon have numerous completely electrified corridors where low-capacity BEVs like the Leaf can chain DC fast charges to go hundreds of miles in a day. I take advantage of the 2 free years of EVgo DC fast charging I got with my Leaf at least once a week, I go grab a cup of drip and make a shitpost and I've got the (free) juice I need for the week. call to action fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 19:21
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divabot posted:It's not as cool as driving a GENUINE SIGNED BY ELON TESLA MODEL ELON, but since some here expressed an interest - my blockchain book is finally out, for £4.99 or whatever strange money you Americans use sent as Initial Book Offerings to the Kindlechain! Since you wrote a book on it how do i make a bunch of money off a bitcoin IPO?
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Jul 24, 2017 19:58
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