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a cyberpunk goose posted:Okay, well some feedback then: it'd be cool if it was this way, or had some room to be this way in some cases. I believe the scalable answer is for everyone who wants their game to be reviewed to themselves review the games of others. It's mathematically likely that if everyone who made one game did two reviews then they'd get at least one review of their game. I agree there are some peculiarities about the Gong Show but one needs to be careful when making demands of unpaid volunteers. A lot of the perceived problems with the Gong Show are consequences of the fact that getting to know a game takes time, and spending time on multiple games in a tight window (and I mean even the week or so allocated to judging) is exhausting. That being said it wouldn't hurt if the AwfulJams site had a means of tracking and sorting by how many times a game had been reviewed outside of the Gong Show. It's not a perfect system in that sometimes you'll get a really lazy review and that'll count, but it helps for community-conscious reviewers who want to spread some love to the overlooked.
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Aug 8, 2017 00:18
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I really don't get why this game jam is still not understood, every year. The Summer Awful Jam is about making a game and getting some decent industry level feedback in a real-but-not-shark-tank way. You (to nobody in particular) make a game, you get feedback on design, play-ability, art, and some exposure to how an audience would perceive it. The Gong Show is that last bit, and ONLY that last bit. That's all it has ever been. You get one promise: your game will be played if it can run at all. (Just watch a stream and see how much effort goes into making that happen on a stream. Even the emulator ROM game was discussed, ahead of time, to make sure it got a shot.) The rest is purely a judgement of how it plays, as is. It's not a discussion of your intent as a game dev, it's not a discussion of your strengths or weaknesses, it's a display of how well your game is to stream and experience from a new player. Want it to be something else? Seriously, just go do that on a different stream, or have your friend do that. Post the link in here, whatever. You might accomplish your goal, you might find out your goal is unrealistic. I don't know. Just don't complain that this long-standing thing doesn't meet your specific whims. It's meeting most of its audience wishes. (Hint: the devs are not the entirety or even the majority of that audience). I mean, you can still complain if you want to, I guess. I mean, I'm not going to care, but your road to whatever you call success is your thing, you do you. If you wanted a happy-go-lucky time, you should probably just make the game and then not pay attention to the rest, assuming you still feel the need to participate in a game jam built around this feedback mechanism. Always remember, getting validation for your actual games is going to be so very much harder for you than Awful Jams. If you're complaining about how not-catering-to-you the Gong Show is, wow, you have very little hope in games until you get over that. That I can promise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTSUxsuo4N8
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Aug 8, 2017 00:21
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All of this to say "no it's my style, therefore I can't change and your feedback is dumb and bad and you just don't get it!!" about a stream format, all the screeds aren't really necessary, "ok point taken, we'll think about some things for next year" is enough, but instead it's always loaded with faux bewilderment and kinda passive aggressive defensiveness. I get frustrated with this specific community's inability to have a simple analytical discussion without being about absolutes. Y'all are bad at taking criticism for a group trying to be about criticism, it's why I deleted my original post and I'm sorry I bothered. See you next time. I don't have all the answers, something just feels off about how the gong show functions and I wanted to give feedback to that respect. I don't really care as much as y'all are projecting that I do, but I want my criticism to be received properly and not just lazily deflected. The post above mine is ridiculous. Thank you Giggs vvvvv a cyberpunk goose fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 00:30
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TodPunk posted:I really don't get why this game jam is still not understood, every year. The Summer Awful Jam is about making a game and getting some decent industry level feedback in a real-but-not-shark-tank way. You (to nobody in particular) make a game, you get feedback on design, play-ability, art, and some exposure to how an audience would perceive it. This is a bit of a harsh response to people voicing their opinions. No one is demanding anything, not that I've seen. When I was trying to encourage cyberpunk goose to share his thoughts and not downplay them, I was hoping that a discussion would take place and it has been. I've been surprised and encouraged by the level headedness shown by everyone involved so far, and so I'm a little confused as to why your post is so dismissive of this discussion. I've been participating since Shalinor had the reigns, I know exactly what the Gong Show is every time it happens. I love that the organizers and judges take valuable time away from their personal lives to help others try to grow. There are issues to this format that may, perhaps, some day, be addressed that aligns to some participants concerns. Please don't come in and say "You should know what it is, get used to it" or something equivalent that simultaneously makes people who want to talk about it seem like they're being belligerent or petty or childish (e: and that they shouldn't have opinions). TodPunk posted:If you wanted a happy-go-lucky time The reason I hadn't attempted to have this discussion before was that I was worried someone would think I was being pissy about someone else not loving my ~*Sweet Darling Baby*~, when I know my babies are stupid jerks that aren't very good babies. People aren't asking to be coddled, they're not asking for special treatment, they just want to have a discussion to see if there are alternatives that can be explored which may be more constructive. The Gong Show is helpful, it is useful, it does what it sets out to do. Could it do more? Maybe. Let's have that discussion. Gunzil posted:Since you asked for it, here's the ending theme, it was the last thing I did before submitting the game (also I was drunk) https://clyp.it/hly2eths Thank you! I was giggling like a goof when I saw you posted it. It's a good song, especially for having been drunk at the time. Well done. Giggs fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 00:33
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Giggs posted:This is really uncalled for. It's dismissive and mean. No, it is neither dismissive or mean. It is addressing a specific arc which was expressed in several posts. If you're taking it literally, I'm open to rewording suggestions rather than painting antagonism where there is none. Either have the productive conversation you claim to aim for, or argue. I'll join you for one of them. If you have suggestions for what more could be construed /from/ the Gong Show, I'm all ears and the other judges will attest I am willing to ask these kinds of things, as I often do. They just can't amount to one of the following, because these have been addressed ad nauseam: - "I don't like it." (Not because we don't want to reach you, but because this is meaningless and unactionable) - "I want it to do other things outside the aims of the GS" (The goals have been stated. If it detracts from those goals, we all agree that's the wrong direction for the GS specifically) - "I want it to do a thing that will take monumental effort" (This is the most plausible productive point that has to be dismissed because it is a cost/benefit problem. There have been a few of these over the years.) Now accepting points that pass this filter. Try me if you don't know if it will pass, I'll let you down easy if you are trying to be earnest. I would advise not throwing accusations of my intent, though. You either give me the benefit of the doubt or I won't extend you the favor back.
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Aug 8, 2017 00:45
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TodPunk posted:No, it is neither dismissive or mean. It is addressing a specific arc which was expressed in several posts. If you're taking it literally, I'm open to rewording suggestions rather than painting antagonism where there is none. Either have the productive conversation you claim to aim for, or argue. I'll join you for one of them. You suck and this sort of ultra rigid criteria for discussion blows
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Aug 8, 2017 01:05
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a cyberpunk goose: Reading back through (what currently exists) of your recent posts, I think what you're advocating for would be better judge feedback. I (and others appear to) believe that this is mutually exclusive from the benefits provided by the Gong Show, and perhaps have been hasty/dismissive in responding to your points as they were worded, though not as they may have been meant. One of the biggest benefits of the Gong Show is getting feedback from a completely uninformed end user: JonTerp deftly fulfills the role of the unwashed masses and gives us unbiased feedback. As others have stated, this feedback is valuable because it's most representative of how 100% of the userbase would respond to these games were we intending to release them in the wild. The things you're asking for are reasonable and I think most of us would agree with them, except for their inclusion as part of the Gong Show. Of course we'd like someone to spend some time discussing the merits and failures of our game even if those failures would normally be offputting. We'd like some amount of effort put into analyzing and responding to these games because of the effort we put into them, even if the analysis itself may be initially painful. But I'd argue that's for the judges and the community to do: if Jon gets information in advance or even too much prompting then his feedback becomes tainted. I actually make an effort to see as little Gong Show as possible and to avoid reading reviews about any of the games I haven't played, because it prevents me from providing this specific form of genuine feedback to those games in the future: you only get one first impression, and as someone with vague fantasies of eventually releasing a thing to the public, unbiased first impressions are extremely valuable. How many of these AwfulJams have you participated in? I think another part of the problem is that we're picking up the statements that you're making and carrying them to their general conclusion, but not communicating any of the steps along the way that historically result in these opinioned responses.
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Aug 8, 2017 01:14
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Hey! Did you submit a game to this jam? If you did, and you're anything like me, then drama makes you hungry to apply markup to content and images! Why not take the inspiration and work on your game page? The team with the best game page will win a Steam copy of  Dream Daddy: A Dad Dating Simulator !!I will announce the winner after the gong show streams out!
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Aug 8, 2017 01:16
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I love the gong show and wouldn't change it for the world. It's a roast where we can all get together and laugh at the same stuff each of us did wrong or hilariously right in the same short timespan. However, it does sound like there's also a desire to have a more long-form stream spotlight on some games outside the gong show format. This is okay too! That's why I'm going to volunteer doing a stream a few nights this week for chilling and discussing some games from the jam, tentatively called Jamflix and Chill. What I'm planning on doing is an hour-long stream split into two half-hour blocks, one game for each block. There is a slight twist though; I will only stream a game if one or more of the team members will come on stream (via discord) and discuss the game with me. We'll have a nice chat, I'll ask some easy and hard questions, all while the game is being played. It'll be super laid-back and allow some devs to discuss how they operated during the jam or what pitfalls they hit. Right now I'm planning on hosting these streams sometime tomorrow around 6 PM PST until Friday or however long my attention holds out. That means I'm looking for anyone who wants to show their game off and discuss their experience that can also be on around this time with a microphone. Please volunteer in PM (or on Discord) with what day Tuesday-Friday you can be on and we can work out the arrangements! If there is a lack of dev volunteers then I will pick a game at random and start streaming regardless. So get in contact right away! edit: The schedule is as follows: Tuesday 6 PM PST: BBA Slam with TomR Tuesday 6:30 PM PST: Fast Forward Record Rewind with Giggs Wednesday 6 PM PST: Tamale Drive with Wazzit Wednesday 6:30 PM PST: PUNCH FIGHT 7: Boot to the Head with blastron and Ultigonio Thursday 6 PM PST: SimShine with Xibanya and Mihai Thursday 6:30 PM PST: The Smash Boys vs. The Nerdy Boys with Harold Krell Friday 6 PM PST: Soul Castle with Gunzil and Ultigonio Friday 6:30 PM PST: Mehrio with Forer http://twitch.tv/dietinghippo Dieting Hippo fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Aug 9, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 01:20
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Hammer Bro. posted:a cyberpunk goose: Reading back through (what currently exists) of your recent posts, I think what you're advocating for would be better judge feedback. I (and others appear to) believe that this is mutually exclusive from the benefits provided by the Gong Show, and perhaps have been hasty/dismissive in responding to your points as they were worded, though not as they may have been meant. I agree with your entire post. it'd be nice to have another team with streaming / video production / talking head experience to produce something like the Octojam showcase is but for Awful Jams. I'm hoping getting some YouTubers / Streamers involved helps to that end. Or it could just produce more Gong Show like content, I guess we'll see.
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Aug 8, 2017 01:23
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a cyberpunk goose posted:You suck and this sort of ultra rigid criteria for discussion blows It's a difficult message to communicate, but one funny thing about humans is they can perceive what is felt even if it hasn't been said. I would actually like to have the conversation about how to improve the format in a manner that's acceptable to all parties, though I feel special consideration must be given to those who are burdened the most (the judges / streamers). In aggregate, your actions even before this point create the impression of one who would rather be offended than further a cause. Which game did you submit? If I haven't done so already, I'll give it a play-through when I next get around to recording some runs. Maybe Tuesday if I'm lucky. SharpenedSpoonv2 posted:The team with the best game page will win a Steam copy of Shhh! Quit reminding people! I did the majority of the work on my page before this prize was announced and am totally neglecting it because of a firm belief that it'd be against the spirit of the deadline. Definitely not because of laziness. Edit: Dieting Hippo posted:That's why I'm going to volunteer doing a stream a few nights this week for chilling and discussing some games from the jam, tentatively called Jamflix and Chill. Beautiful! Thanks for stepping up. That sounds like a wonderful solution to a myriad of situations -- lack of reviews, poor implicit communication between developers and end users, a heavy burden on too many people, etc. The nice thing about a community activity is that its shortcomings can be addressed by the community. And honestly I feel like all parties benefit from doing so. I certainly learn a lot by absent-mindedly articulating vaguely game-development-oriented thoughts while distracted by the submitter's shinies. Hammer Bro. fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 01:27
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Hammer Bro. posted:It's a difficult message to communicate, but one funny thing about humans is they can perceive what is felt even if it hasn't been said. I would actually like to have the conversation about how to improve the format in a manner that's acceptable to all parties, though I feel special consideration must be given to those who are burdened the most (the judges / streamers). This is an important point. I will add a clarification that I would genuinely like to have such a conversation, and frankly for the future I see no need to give special consideration to judges or organizers if it's valuable enough. If I knew going into judging that I needed to spend an extra 4 hours on judging, I could easily evaluate if I have the time to make that commitment. The judging is somewhat stressful but stress is easy to manage if you know what you're getting into and we are up front about those requirements these days. I don't do this because it's fun, I do this because I've been told it is helpful to aspiring game devs. It's a nice niche way to give up evenings for a couple weeks, and I enjoy the process, including the constructive feedback the jams have taken over the course of years (some may remember the Gong Show being created originally out of that feedback).
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Aug 8, 2017 01:36
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Hammer Bro. posted:In aggregate, your actions even before this point create the impression of one who would rather be offended than further a cause. Only if you ignore how my basic originally careful statements were construed and thrown back at me by a lot of internet warriors who aren't really saying anything constructive, in a discussion I originally had renegged and chosen not to have (but was pulled back in  still my fault). I don't owe anyone anything, no one owes me anything, I just think the Gong Show can probably come up with a way to let less games "Fall through the cracks" as it were without a dramatic restructuring or huge time reinvestment, we could probably figure this out if people were less busy trying to say "RIGHT!!" "WRONG!!!"edit: Like returning to the idea of "a checkbox to opt out of the gong show" is almost valid in my eyes, but moreso if all that did was move your game into a secondary bucket of games to showcase after the gong show. You barely have to do anything differently re: the format, go through the gong show games the way you do, then maybe get a bunch of less game-style-partisan devs/jammers/judges in to discord for thumbing over the non-gong-show games, discuss the merits y'all have discovered and maybe encourage the driving-streamer down a path or two a little longer than you'd allow for the gong show, then move on once you feel you've explored what the game has to offer in a discussion. Combine them all in the end in a youtube video of "Gong Show & Showcase Games". This satisfies both the people working to deliver hyper polished "I want to do games as a living" style, spank me jonTerp  entries, and the "I'm doing weird poo poo and don't expect it to click right away"  entries, without a major restructure of how the stream is actually organized or is edited and ran.
a cyberpunk goose fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 01:45
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TodPunk posted:I really don't get why this game jam is still not understood, every year. The Summer Awful Jam is about making a game and getting some decent industry level feedback in a real-but-not-shark-tank way. You (to nobody in particular) make a game, you get feedback on design, play-ability, art, and some exposure to how an audience would perceive it. The Gong Show is the highest-profile and most thorough exhibition of all of the games. For most participants, it's the only time they'll get to see someone play through their game and give feedback in an entirely uncontrolled setting. This is also the most exposure that your game will likely get, since it seems like the overall level of post-jam feedback in the thread is really light. This kind of thing can be an intensely vulnerable experience, especially if you're not used to getting unvarnished feedback. Hell, I've been doing game jams for over a decade and watching this kind of thing still has me on the edge of my seat. On top of that, the fact that it's the people running the jam doing this, and not just some random SA celebrity streamer, adds extra weight to it. Until the actual judging hits, this is the most authoritative indication that you have of how well you actually did. Seeing the people who are supposed to be carefully considering your game and scoring it just kinda breeze past it because it's not very good (or, worse, doesn't stream well) is not a great feeling. It feels unfair. The fact that this isn't intended to be the showcase is immaterial. It is, until something bigger comes along. The fact that this isn't intended to be the actual judging is immaterial. It feels like it is. I don't have any solutions to this problem that don't involve significant changes to the format and direction of the stream. Hammer Bro. posted:I believe the scalable answer is for everyone who wants their game to be reviewed to themselves review the games of others. It's mathematically likely that if everyone who made one game did two reviews then they'd get at least one review of their game. This is a good suggestion.
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Aug 8, 2017 01:48
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blastron posted:On top of that, the fact that it's the people running the jam doing this, and not just some random SA celebrity streamer, adds extra weight to it. Until the actual judging hits, this is the most authoritative indication that you have of how well you actually did. Seeing the people who are supposed to be carefully considering your game and scoring it just kinda breeze past it because it's not very good (or, worse, doesn't stream well) is not a great feeling. It feels unfair. I believe this could be solved by putting the gong show after judging has actually happened. This would mean more suspense in time without any information, but would alleviate the catch-22 of intent vs void-filling need we humans tend to have. (I'm ignoring historical reasons for the scheduling for the sake of discussion, but someone else can make that point if they wish.)
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Aug 8, 2017 01:59
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Dieting Hippo posted:I love the gong show and wouldn't change it for the world. It's a roast where we can all get together and laugh at the same stuff each of us did wrong or hilariously right in the same short timespan. However, it does sound like there's also a desire to have a more long-form stream spotlight on some games outside the gong show format. This is okay too!  This rules, you're a hero
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Aug 8, 2017 02:03
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TodPunk posted:I believe this could be solved by putting the gong show after judging has actually happened. This would mean more suspense in time without any information, but would alleviate the catch-22 of intent vs void-filling need we humans tend to have. That's actually a really good idea, now that you mention it. The order in which games are presented might have to be tweaked (each judge's block is ordered from worst to best?) and the judge might want to do more commentating to elaborate on things mentioned in their review, but I like the concept.
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Aug 8, 2017 02:04
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TodPunk posted:No, it is neither dismissive or mean. It is addressing a specific arc which was expressed in several posts. If you're taking it literally, I'm open to rewording suggestions rather than painting antagonism where there is none. Either have the productive conversation you claim to aim for, or argue. I'll join you for one of them. No one flatly said "I don't like it" as far as I remember. I could not ask or expect anyone to hear such a statement as a serious thought. It has been suggested that the Gong Show maybe should not be settled on as the solution in perpetuity. Goose tries to open the discussion by asking why this is what it is, and I think people were not understanding this being the main point which led to some frustration from those involved. I think it's clearer now? Gunzil posted:I agree. Like it or not, the gong show as it stands is the canonical showcase for awful jam entries. JonTerp posted:We don't like that it's this way, since Gong Show was never meant to be a "showcase" and are working toward getting more exposure for submitted games on other popular streams. a cyberpunk goose posted:Okay, well some feedback then: it'd be cool if it was this way, or had some room to be this way in some cases. Am I a crazy person? Did I get this far in life and never realize how bad my reading comprehension is, or that I'm an emotional infant? TodPunk posted:I believe this could be solved by putting the gong show after judging has actually happened. This would mean more suspense in time without any information, but would alleviate the catch-22 of intent vs void-filling need we humans tend to have. Hammer Bro. posted:I believe the scalable answer is for everyone who wants their game to be reviewed to themselves review the games of others.
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Aug 8, 2017 02:09
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Dieting Hippo posted:Current Jamflix and Chill Schedule: The schedule is starting to fill up! We've got BBA Slam with TomR tomorrow at 6 and then Soul Castle with Gunzil on Friday at 6. If you and/or your teammates want to come talk about your game, PM me here or on Discord with the time slot you want. edit: Three slots left, thanks to Giggs, Wazzit, blastron, and Ultigonio for all offering to come on as well! edit: Two left, thanks Harold Krell for taking a Thursday slot! Dieting Hippo fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 02:14
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TodPunk posted:I believe this could be solved by putting the gong show after judging has actually happened. This would mean more suspense in time without any information, but would alleviate the catch-22 of intent vs void-filling need we humans tend to have. I like the delay idea FWIW. I'm also gonna elaborate on something I said earlier that I think is actionable and quick: improve the messaging (about the Gong Show). Depending on the year-over-year reputation is (evidently) not good enough: new people come to the jams, veterans come back after absences, etc. For example, right now the AwfulJams.com main page reads: "At the end of the jam we’ll play all the games live on stream in front of a bunch of other nerds during our regular Gong Show." This tells me nothing about what I can expect from the GS, other than it implies some possibly like-minded nerds will be there. Contrast this with the section on judging: "At the end of the jam our team of professionally trained game jam judges will crush your hopes and dreams." This is honest! It tells me what to expect! I appreciate you telling me. I think the bit about the GS could be improved to tell me more about what kind of criticism to expect (which would go a long way to alleviating concerns). NuclearEagleFox!!! fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 02:27
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Giggs posted:I thought the discussion was going fine. I don't know why you said the things you did. If the Gong Show's goals are never to change, that's fine. The point was just to ask why not, and to give some reasons why maybe, it should. Those reasons have been given so I don't understand what the issue is. You don't have to take these benign opinions and extrapolate them into thoughts like "You'll never make it professionally if *wow* you can't even handle the Gong Show not catering to your specific needs". I'm paraphrasing and emphasizing not because I'm trying to belittle you or make you sound a fool, but to emphasize what aspects of your posts were phrased in what I think is acceptably understood as dismissive or even condescending. I feel that if you are being earnest here, you specifically might benefit from some explanation of my motivations in posting. I'm hoping this will be taken well, but to be honest, your posts in this thread before I got here have left me questioning a bit of your intent. I don't yet have the information to pass such a judgement so I'm acting on the assumption that you mean well until you prove otherwise. I'm hoping this pays out. - I posted to cut through drama. There are a couple posters that need not be named that are simply whining and they feed a sentiment that ends up negative and stresses out the organizers. I don't have such an emotional investment (this isn't my baby) but I don't wish to see them stressed. Some of these posters have posted the same thing (almost word for word last time I checked) every year. This is not acceptable, and is in no way can they mean to be providing honest feedback or anything of the sort. - I posted to address not only people in the thread, but the peanut gallery. This thread bleeds out to the rest of the jam and gamedev resources. I believe this point alone should explain some of the broader brushes I chose to use, but it all started here and is easy to see how side-chatter could become burdensome in a community. - I posted to raise the level of discourse. "This is bullshit" is a sentiment I expect from my teenagers. It is not acceptable as feedback on anything, let alone this game jam (and I'm not referring only to the time it was used in response to me, it was a sentiment equivalent to previous postings from others). You can go back to my original post and see I chose wording specifically to flow from colloquial nonsense to more formality. This has worked, it seems. We have even had some good discussion, as you have also pointed out. - I posted to explain. There are a few people that are new to the gamejam and deserve an explanation. If I was posting to just them it would be different, but it has to exist within the context of this thread. So this is only a minor goal, if I'm being honest, but smart people will pick up on information even from contexts they themselves don't feel a part of, so being informative is an easy goal to achieve. Low-hanging fruit. I believe you have taken my postings much more directed at your position. Sincerely, go back to my first response to you, Giggs, specifically. Instantly you can see I raised the bar, because you were not kvetching, even if I feel your presentation had room for improvement in the goal of keeping the peace. My only regret in that post was that I did not emphasis that discussion points can't amount to those points. You say nobody was saying "I don't like it." If you go back, I believe you will agree that there are some that can be boiled down to that sentiment. Most constructive attempts won't, but there's a lot of posts before which aren't constructive. If this doesn't make sense, I'm happy to explain whatever is needed. I will just end by reiterating that addressing a group, especially through text, is nuanced and difficult, and I think we've all done well at turning the negativity around this time. I'd like to keep it at that level for a while.
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Aug 8, 2017 02:41
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Next year I'm going to also contribute to/champion/participate in a thorough per game critique stream similar to the one Giggs is proffering on a per request/recommendation/arbitrary basis. Anyone (inc JonTerp  ) will be welcome to join. This can also function as a critical mass for the rare MP-only/heavy game entry, I can wrangle irl friends for same-screen combat games too (see: OVERREACH)quote:I posted to cut through drama. There are a couple posters that need not be named that are simply whining This is feeding the drama fwiw, criticism or charged language you don't like isn't "simply whining" a cyberpunk goose fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 02:42
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Things are getting kind of heated here... we should all play some Super 256-in-1 to calm down imhoDieting Hippo posted:The schedule is starting to fill up! We've got BBA Slam with TomR tomorrow at 6 and then Soul Castle with Gunzil on Friday at 6. If you and/or your teammates want to come talk about your game, PM me here or on Discord with the time slot you want. drat, I'd love to do this but my time zone is 16 hours ahead. Will the streams be archived?
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Aug 8, 2017 02:51
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Hitlersaurus Christ posted:Things are getting kind of heated here... we should all play some Super 256-in-1 to calm down imho They should be, and I'll post 'em up on YouTube after.
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Aug 8, 2017 02:53
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Here are some thoughts on games I played so far. I tried to include something I thought worked well and something I thought could be improved for each. Missile Champions: Nailed the aesthetics. Controls and ball physics felt really good, worked much better than I would have expected when restricted to 8 directions. Camera felt a little too zoomed in. It often seemed like I was hitting the ball as soon as it appeared on screen, especially when boosting. Dum II: Beautiful art, very coherant look. Great feedback from blood/particles. Being able to cancel the reloading animation with a roll would have made me feel more in control and able to respond to enemy actions. Bat-Man: I liked the traversal mechanics a lot. It was an engaging puzzle to figure out how to combine the web grappling hook with wall climbing to move around. The web shooter gun and enemies felt a little tacked on and could be fleshed out more in some way. BBA Slam: Very funny and charming. Lots of little surprises to keep it interesting all the way through. Feedback for player actions were hard to interpret. I often felt like there was a disconnect between the buttons I pressed and when/what the result would be. Bootleg Krew: Really impressive. BIOS boot sequence, fake IRC, and desktop were very well done and elevated this beyond a collection of mini games. The games mostly lasted just as long as they needed to to make their point without overstaying their welcome. I almost gave up on this because it took me so long to figure out what I needed to do to play the games. Maybe somebody could chime in in IRC to give more explicit instructions if the player isn't getting it fast enough. Smash-em Randal: I like the concept of a platformer level that can be approached two different ways with two different move sets. Level seemed designed for the de-bootlegged character while the bootleg character just walked forward directly to the exit. Perhaps a different spacebar ability for the de-bootlegged guy would have opened up more interesting obstacles for him. Bootleg Miners: I loved how faithful this was to the original Duck Hunt, down to the light gun hitboxes when you fire. Gus's animations were funny. Duck Hunt isn't very challenging with the precision of mouse input. Some additional mechanics and more varied enemies may have helped keep things interesting. DMCA Takedown: Seize and Desist: The animations are really nice. I especially like the glitchy idle animation. The recovery time on the punch animation before I could move again seemed too long, making it hard to do anything other than stand and punch in one direction. Shield didn't seem very useful, maybe it could counter the enemy attack and stun them for a bit. Thrifynauts: The paint splatters left behind by dead enemies were great. Starting with the blank grey canvas and gradually turning it into a colorful mess gave a sense of progress. I would have liked to see more radical growth through the Katamari mechanic. It would be fun to fight larger and larger enemies by gobbling up the smaller ones. Thanks so much to anybody who has taken the time to play and provide feedback on my entry, Naked Bootleg. I'm planning on posting an updated version in a few days that polishes up some of the rough areas that have been highlighted.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:24
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TodPunk posted:I'm hoping this will be taken well, but to be honest, your posts in this thread before I got here have left me questioning a bit of your intent. I'm disappointed by this, to be honest. I didn't think I was being negative or harmful and that is, I would like it to be known, the last thing I intended. I don't remember previous threads having discussion like this. It's been a while, and I don't remember taking part in those discussions before, so I will totally accept that I've just forgotten. I am fully aware that I didn't provide any concrete solutions to the concerns I was talking about, but I thought that at least bringing it up could lead to some kind of progression. It was probably unfair of me to put that responsibility on others, but the alternative in my mind was to just not say anything and that feels like a bad decision to make. My thought process was "If they disagree, that's fine, and if they don't, we can talk about it". I wasn't aiming for some resolution or quick change to materialize from nowhere. I also didn't expect any kind of widespread acceptance or validation. I just thought that expressing my opinion was the right thing to do. Perhaps that was selfish. It just irks me that people who would have negative feelings would also be the least likely to bring up criticism and I wanted to open the space. I will be honest, after I first posted about it I immediately thought, "Oh no, this could go real bad." but chose to think better of everyone. I didn't think it got anywhere near as toxic as it could have, but I suppose it's not my place to make that decision. TodPunk posted:I will just end by reiterating that addressing a group, especially through text, is nuanced and difficult, and I think we've all done well at turning the negativity around this time. Hitlersaurus Christ posted:Things are getting kind of heated here... we should all play some Super 256-in-1 to calm down imho
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Aug 8, 2017 03:26
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Nate405 posted:Bootleg Miners: I got to the end of making it, looked back, and thought: "Oh gently caress, Duck Hunt is boring, and maybe always was." In retrospect I should have tried to improve on Duck Hunt, rather than rebuild it at it's simplest level. I should have built some crazy poo poo on top of my foundation. It feels strangely excellent to to have my own negative thoughts about a creation echoed by the people who tried it out. Like having a giant highlighter drawn on my internal self-improvement checklist. Your Naked Bootleg was a really pleasant suprise. I went from "Oh football?" to "Oh gently caress yeah football!" pretty quickly. That's some good tactics, man. Some good tactics.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:44
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I've almost played all the games. Woo! Red Planet IV The music is great, and evolves over stages. The cutscene art is really quite nice, and the gameplay loop is equally fun and frustrating. Someone on the Gong Show mentioned Spelunky I think, and it’s an apt comparison from my perspective. Knowing the rules, playing run after run, and momentarily forgetting about them leads to a suspenseful and often disappointing conclusion. I died so many times. I still haven’t finished it, I have the window open and silenced while I’m writing this because I need to not play it for a while before I get back in. The background on stage one has too much contrast and makes vision a little difficult, especially since precision is so important in this game. The first dozen or so lives can be pretty rough, since everything feels so underpowered, but I’m surprised by how quickly one acclimates to the enemies and earns the money to progress. The enemies themselves could be more varied, though the difficulty would probably ramp up unless the distinctions were minimal, and the first two bosses at least are actually kind of easy. I like that, to be honest, considering how stressful dodging bullets can be with the regular enemies. Bosses don’t have to be particularly difficult to play a meaningful role in games. The third stage is very hard. Even with cloaking and full shields I have yet to reach the boss, but I’ll keep trying. This is solid!   as you may be able to tell, I've hit a bit of a wall BOOTLEGS Well it’s really good, I don’t know what else can be said that hasn’t been already. It’s so clean and neat and contained. It’s cute and a great theme interpretation. One thing I’d like to see considered is the frequency of hazards at the bottom of blind drops, but I guess if you really want to do well you can just learn where they are. It feels tight and about as predictable as can be when your spider has 3 legs unevenly spread out from its body. I hope you look into the possibility of releasing this widely somehow!  Super Gargle Blaster “suited blyat” Nice. My only major complaint is that it’s pretty easy to lose track of your direction when you’re flying around the place and your sprite is pretty small, among a bunch of other crazy moving objects. I’m not sure how to fix this, perhaps some visual marker of the front of your ship like headlight beams that trail off? Besides that though, I’m impressed by the powerup selection variety, and really their existence. The audio is nice, though some background music would be cool. The last level also raises the difficulty a bit steep. After a few tries I did manage to beat it and was rewarded quite well. I also liked the opening crawl, it got a chuckle or two from me. The overlay when using the Martini Timespin was also a really nice little touch. Good thinking!   SUPER MEGA 256-IN-1 Alrighty. Yup, sure. It’s a good idea for the theme, and the path is more or less easy enough to follow between games. I hit a bug in Castle of Black Man where hitting space cued the shots, but they didn’t fire until I turned the character the other way, and then they all flew out at once. It was cool, though not super useful. The silly dating game thing made me laugh a few times, as did the ending dialogue in Zodiac Bible III in the coliseum. The inclusion of Honeybee Havoc was really nice. I didn’t play Game Ball 98 my first time through so I went back to see what was up with it, and it was pretty informative. I’m not big on scanlines and by the end of it I was a bit tired of its affect on the legibility of text, but otherwise everything matched up consistently in terms of visuals (besides Game Ball). It was fun to go around the different games, and though the ending was pretty long it was still enjoyable. I expect things (I don’t know what, specifically) from you every jam and you always bring it, so I’m pleased!  
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Aug 8, 2017 04:44
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a cyberpunk goose posted:Next year I'm going to also contribute to/champion/participate in a thorough per game critique stream similar to the one Giggs is proffering on a per request/recommendation/arbitrary basis. Anyone (inc JonTerp Why wait 'til next year? There are plenty of people still itching for reviews, and you will feel better about the events of this year's review-oriented-activities if you've demonstrably objectively improved the situation.
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Aug 8, 2017 07:01
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Giggs posted:lovely gargle blaster review Thanks for playing Giggs! You made some good points, the headlights in particular are a great idea. Good work on beating the game. Also mad props for playing and reviewing (almost) all the games! I got half way and need to try to finish them all. I wish we could leave reviews under the games, would make the process a lot easier.
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Aug 8, 2017 09:39
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TodPunk posted:No, it is neither dismissive or mean. It is addressing a specific arc which was expressed in several posts. If you're taking it literally, I'm open to rewording suggestions rather than painting antagonism where there is none. Either have the productive conversation you claim to aim for, or argue. I'll join you for one of them. Emphasis added. Thought you should know your posting is actively hostile. Not sure if that's your intent.
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Aug 8, 2017 09:47
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Right, I don't know how long I'll keep this up for but I'm attempting to do feedback on a blog. I'll just copy+paste the feedback sections over here and see how that works out. I feel kinda dirty using this as an opportunity to promote a personal blog all the same, so I'll leave that out. First up: Soul Castle! Sprites The sprite-work, backgrounds and enemy design are all fitting and I like the animations on their movement. Like art-wise, I have no real suggestions to make as I feel like it delivers its message appropriately. Movement and Enemies Regarding player movement, I feel like the player moves just a tad too slowly and I don’t really like the delay on his attack. I understand it’s a heavy weapon, but I found it mildly frustrating as it’d feel like an enemy would telegraph then carry out an attack before my attack hitbox was activated. This might have been exacerbated by the fact the most common enemy; the hopping guy with a knife, was so much more nimble than the player was. Half the time I swing for him he’d hop way out of range. This would be neat enemy play if my character felt more responsive, but in his sluggish state it renders the enemy kind of annoying to me. If it helps, his movement speed in late game feels much better to me. The bone-throwing enemies I have no issue with. Every time I got hit by those guys it felt like it was totally my fault, so those guys are fine. I like their hopping animations. The rest of the enemies also felt alright. “Why Can’t Boneguy Turn?” I was a little bit weirded out that I couldn’t turn around in a game like this, but you clearly designed enemies with this in mind (they can’t turn around either!), so what initially felt weird ended up feeling completely fair to me so props for that. Another thing that weirded me out was his lack of jump, which was replaced by his dashing motion. It took a little getting used to but again it seems like the game was designed with it in mind so it sorta meshed well overall. I am a fan of how you let us walk up steps, as this would have been really annoying if we had to spend stamina on a dodge just to climb a small ledge! I do think the dashing motion needs some animations to go with it to help sell it. I also feel you should try adding i-frames to it if you haven’t already to see if it might help make combat feel better (if they’re there already I apologise, I guess I just suck at timing dodges!) Hitboxes I feel like hit-boxes need a minor rework. This might just be solidly opinion, but I hate it when enemy attack boxes persist after their attack. This is particularly noteworthy on the knifeguy; I don’t feel like his atack hitbox should persist beyond the initial stabbing motion. Again, this might just be opinion, but I reckon it’s worth experimenting with to see how it feels. The hitbox on the player’s melee attack seems about right on the horizontal but its vertical reach might be a little too generous! Overall It took me a little bit to get used to the controls and the movement of the game as I daftly wandered into knives, bones and sometimes both at once! After a few failed attempts I managed to crawl my way through the first two stages where what felt like the real game was ready to welcome me. While level 1 and 2 do get hit with the flaws of the game the hardest, 3 onward was a lot more fun. Maybe it's the goofiness of it or maybe it's just movement from then on feels so much better than in the early game. I'm not sure, either way it was more fun! The final boss was also really nicely done and the credits song was hilarious. All in all, it didn't take me too long to clear the game and there weren't really any major roadblocks. I'm glad I persisted to experience the 2nd half of this bizarre little adventure.
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Aug 8, 2017 12:18
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Humans, I see that you have all catastrophically misinterpreted my unimpeachable attempt at elevating the discourse. This can only be for a few reasons:
I will henceforth adapt my diction in such fashion that your so-called "feelings" will not be hurt. Such an attempt is laudable as it requires significant reduction in logic, the binding force of all creation that guides our universe away from entropy. Only I am capable of a professional, productive conversation, as you are all a bunch of slapdick diaper ninnies that I would not trust with a watermelon, much less a game engine and a keyboard. I sincerely hope that this missive reduces the drama.
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Aug 8, 2017 14:34
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Hammer Bro. posted:Why wait 'til next year? There are plenty of people still itching for reviews, and you will feel better about the events of this year's review-oriented-activities if you've demonstrably objectively improved the situation. I know how much work goes into a stream worth watching, I didn't set my life up to do a stream this week or next and I've got a full rear end calendar  I'm going to do written reviews when I get a moment to breath though, if anyone wants a review please say soEdit: I could do some video reviews of games per request though, not in a live format
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Aug 8, 2017 15:27
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The last batch of games have been played. Smash-em Randal It’s very short and simple, and I’m not entirely sure the point of the game gets across. My assumption is that the goal is to avoid the corruptions and make it to the end. To that end, I did it and got the “debootleg ending” which I think is the good ending. I’m sure you’re aware of the negative aspects of the game so I’ll try not to belabour it but I’m going to point things out anyway because I think it’s helpful. The difference between the new and OG character isn’t particularly well built up. Either you can jump or you can’t, you can not break things or you can. This idea for a game is a good starting point, but unfortunately you weren’t able to really capitalize on it for the jam. The controls felt a bit swimmy and the wall jumping was awkward. I think decreasing the time of impulse from the wall you were touching could help with this. The way it is makes it feel like you don’t have control for the period when you jump away is pretty significant for a platformer. If you had more time obviously more levels would have been good to add. I’m also assuming this is your first jam, so if you want to keep participating I hope you do so.   PUNCH FIGHT 7: BOOT TO THE HEAD The theme adherence is nice and different in this one. Having a disembodied voice talk mad poo poo was pretty funny, though the ending was the only part that really got me good. Some more exploration into this concept could have been really cool, like spawning weird objects to block your path or shrinking the size of your wheels so you move slower or expanding them to make it difficult to control or something. Making your boosters unbalanced? Uhh… changing the texture of the rover to say “F U” instead of “USA”? Endless possibilities to mess around with pirates! It was fun and relaxing, though if it weren’t for the setting the rover’s speed and maneuverability may have become grating. The music definitely keeps the player soothed though, so it’s all cohesive. Ultigonio is still, still good at audio. It looks really nice. It’s clean and crisp and colourful in the right ways. The water (is it water? or is it ethanol or something?) is a bit clashy in terms of its hue, but that’s pretty dang minor. The physics objects also get angry at the universe sometimes and try to vent their frustration through wild, aggressive flailing. I had a bit of a buggy audio thing, where taking the long elevator (the one Jon wanted to try experimenting with that box during GS) cued a second song to play over top the song that was already playing. Your amendment on PUNCH FI6HT came true, and I’m glad it did!   Headphone Hero This game is really close to being much better which is frustrating. A bunch of small things all add up to make the experience worse than it needs to be. Some of these things include: The gravity is pretty high, especially considering how tight the camera is. Movement in general is just a touch too fast. Losing power in your shots by taking damage feels like odd punishment. The amount lost also leads to an unfortunate average decline since getting hit subtracts 3-5 pips or so, but landing a hit only adds 1. If you have a level 2 og blaster weapon thing, that means a notmario hits you, and you can only hit it once as it dies immediately. The height of platforms necessary to jump on are too close the the peak of your jump and consequently simple jumps are oddly difficult. The earned weapons are too weak to start with and getting them powered up is very difficult. Some of the enemy placements are unavoidable traps which feels unfair. No checkpoints before bosses! (I don’t know if you respawn at the boss fight if you die in there, I didn’t die then). The levels are decently long, but without checkpoints it’s too harsh. On to the positives. The bootleg characters are great, and they animate really really well. Twerk Lion is my favourite and should win the jam itself. Best game of the jam is just the Lion. I love this lion. The music choices were fitting, the backgrounds/environmental art are nice and consistent. The bosses, while they could use tweaking in terms of tells or how ridiculous a rocket volley they can fire, are good replicas of megaman style bosses. The story idea is interesting, and shooting big walls of energy is fun. Enemies are distinct in both movement and attacks. In summary, I’m excited to see what you submit next jam, when your jam-legs will be stronger and better able to support your jam brain while it does the heavy lifting. What a stupid analogy. Keep it up!   The Smash Boys vs The Nerdy Boys The audio was great in a number of ways. The jingle for the Smash Boys was catchy and appropriately rockin’, the noise made by punting downed enemies multiplies by not limiting the number of instances of it being played when doing a combo makes it much more punchy and satisfying, and there are plenty of instances of repetition for comedy's sake which work well (each end of stage). Variety in behaviour or animations or mechanics with the different PCs would have been great, but it doesn’t negatively impact the game with its absence. The inter-level screens showcase the humour well too. The parallax of the water looks great, and the boss designs are goofy and fun. The introductions are fun and quick which fits the genre. Their behaviour is also simple and effective, though perhaps SHAAAARK could have had a second attack or something. SHAAAARK was also sorta confusing in that it's hitbox wasn't completely obvious. I was only totally certain I wouldn't take a hit if my sprite had no overlap with theirs. I liked the voice acting/singing. The first and last stage feel a bit drawn out, and if there was time for different enemies that may have helped distract me from the length. This may also have been my fault though, because I wanted to see what a high score may accomplish, so I was playing it pretty slow to try and get combos. It's different for a beat-em-up to reward careful positioning afaik, so that's cool. The ending is real dumb. I barely missed getting 100,000 points. Another really solid game Krell, nice!   Sherlock Holmes and the Three Mysteries The fact that you went and made a patreon to support the premise of your game is some next-level poo poo. I can appreciate that. Since text plays the heaviest role in your game I’m going to focus on it. Musgrave’s dialogue works pretty well, but Sherlock's could use some sort of indication of inflection on his part. Ellipses, or phonetic spellings or something to that effect might help convey how smarmy his character’s bullshit can be. Without something like this to make his statements more evocative, they tend to fall flat. The flavour text around the game is mostly adequate but it feels a bit inconsistent. The bookshelf talking about how the books are empty is a good bit, but the first door is weird in a way that it hadn’t earned. The main puzzle isn’t as clear as it needs to be. The oak tree can be talked to from 4 different locations, so when it talks about the elm, that’s 4 positions that could potentially be the correct one without being able to be certain. I started from one of the wrong positions and realized when I was stuck against the shed, so I arbitrarily moved upward, continued and accidentally hit the solution space. There’s also a typo that says the elm is to the left, when the oak is almost at the left border, but it’s obvious enough to be a typo. For some reason the S key doesn’t work on the locations menu, and spacebar didn’t work inside the shed. I couldn’t tell if there was anything previously given about the chests in the shed, but luckily I started going through all of them near the entrance so it didn’t take too long. If I hadn’t though, I don’t think I’d be able to convince myself to keep playing. You’ve got to be really careful when you design puzzles and riddles and such because there is such a wide breadth of possible thought processes out there and your own mind is so specific and singular. I had this experience recently when I made a big puzzle/riddle event thing for my D&D party even though I knew it might be bad. It ended with me having to spell it out for them almost literally. I’m not saying to avoid puzzles or riddles in the future, but keeping in mind that there’s a pretty low probability something you write yourself can be solved by someone else and that you should always try to account for alternative solutions is invaluable. The story is simple but intriguing enough for a Sherlock style mystery, though the ending could have been revealed with more pomp or flair. I hope you’re not too annoyed by all my criticisms! First jams are the worst jams!  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After double checking I'm pretty sure I didn't miss any games besides Bootquake which I didn't manage to get a copy of before the show? If I did then please let me know so I can try and give some feedback! Good job everyone! Giggs fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 21:34
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Don't think Bootquake got a public release did it? Thanks for the feedback, Giggs. I recognise all the issues you noted but its interesting you're the first to note issues with weapon EXP. I'll give it a tweak but I wonder if how it feels is gonna be pretty heavily tied to level and enemy design (as you say, its hard to level it off the Grand Dads where as its trivial to charge off a Sonic or a Lion in my experience). I'm curious how the game will feel after I've finished making my adjustments (and adding much needed checkpoints!). Thanks again!
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Aug 8, 2017 21:51
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Giggs posted:Kurm Frog Teach ABC But yeah, I really appreciate all the nice/constructive stuff people have said about Kurm Frog here & in the stream! I totally expected poor Kurm to get clobbered over his wonky gameplay. Good to know him still has a place in heart of America childs.
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Aug 8, 2017 21:56
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Want to say that I am happy with how the jam went, thoroughly enjoyed the Gong Show, and am looking forward to next one!
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Aug 8, 2017 22:30
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Will there be an announcement when the judging is complete? Are we supposed to expect any feedback from the judges on the AwfulJams site for our games or was that just from the Gong Show (which was great, btw)?
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Aug 8, 2017 22:34
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nolen posted:Will there be an announcement when the judging is complete? There's a stream of the judges discussing top picks. At the end of that, judging write-ups on the site are released to their devs. All games at least get a full examination from their judge even if they're not a top pick to make it to deliberation about category winners, and sometimes we discuss some games with other judges to get further feedback well before this stream.
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Aug 8, 2017 23:10
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