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Saros posted:The leadership of the Union revolution (such as it is) is contacting us and asking for whatever aid we can give. It is possible to perform missile strikes but due to the nature of the colony (primarily domes) and the combat zones being population centers civilian casualties would be high from any orbital strikes. We have the combat brigade from Tempel 1 and eight companies of Marines but it would take nearly a day to disembark the non-Marine troops. However we are confident our forces plus the Unionists backed by ground strikes could eventually carry the battle albeit probably with heavy loss of Martian life. To do this we would need to hold Saturn space against any IC counter-attack until the ground battle had completed. I don't get a sense from these descriptions that "topple" is any more war-crimesy than "revolution."
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Aug 10, 2017 16:21
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Can we get a list of whats left of our fleet? I'm thinking we could use a list with ships still in fighting shape, ships damaged severely or disabled (things we were having run to Neptune) and ships destroyed. Would probably help give us a better idea of what we can deal with once enemy ships start showing up in a few days.
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Aug 10, 2017 16:32
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Revolution, Topple
sniper4625 fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 17:16
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Revolution, Topple Maximum chaos 
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Aug 10, 2017 17:25
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HiHo ChiRho posted:1. Viva la revolución! This isn't a wise choice, but it is the right choice. Full Communism Now. If possible, it would help if we could make doing joint rebel/martian photo-ops and press releases about how the revolution owes everything to their Martian Allies. It would make it harder to walk back joining us later in favor of United Earth. Especially if the most pro-UE elements of the rebel leadership were to be "tragically slain by perfidious IC agents" with the help of our friends from SB. As several other people have suggested. Especially, especially if we can persuade our IC contacts to switch sides and support the revolution. They probably won't like it, but they were all ambitious enough to connive with Senator Warcrimes. They're probably also ambitious enough to decide they'd rather be valued members of the post-revolutionary order than shot along with all the other capitalist stooges. Really loved reading the battle reports Saros. Keep up the good work!
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Aug 10, 2017 17:28
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Pash posted:Can we get a list of whats left of our fleet? I'm thinking we could use a list with ships still in fighting shape, ships damaged severely or disabled (things we were having run to Neptune) and ships destroyed. Would probably help give us a better idea of what we can deal with once enemy ships start showing up in a few days. The Fleet around Saturn Yellow = Damaged but combat capable. Red = Combat ineffective requiring shipyard time. 
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Aug 10, 2017 17:35
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Something to consider: Saros just confirmed in the Discord that if we decide to support the Revolution, the dockworkers and shipwrights are rather understandably sympathetic to the Union revolutionaries and we can get lots of shipyard time to patch up our hosed ships right here at Saturn. Going with the Harris Plan might still get us some shipyard time, but nowhere near as much. Burning them down and leaving obviously gets us none, but it really won't matter because we'll be running home to our own shipyards anyways. Honestly, I think if we're gonna have to stick around and fight off the incoming IC forces either way, we might as well go all in and be as ready as we can. Half-assing it with the Harris Plan just means we'll have to fight some of the IC without getting as many repairs in first. And remember that Third Fleet is gonna get a proper look at and hopefully kill most of what's coming from Jupiter, we'll have more than enough time to disengage our ground troops and leave if they see an unbeatable force. But either way we have to fight the Uranus force, and I'd rather do it with as many repairs as possible. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 18:26
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HiHo ChiRho posted:1. Viva la revolución! I concur. Also glad to see I survived, even if I did have my ship blown out from under me! Still any one you walk away from and all that. BwenGun fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 18:28
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We clobbered the IC in beam range. Those 24 strength Plasma Carronades are badass. The 10 strength laser hits from even the corvettes are 3 times as strong as an ASM hit. Next time we get in a fight we should try to rush straight into beam range I think. With that in mind, we should prioritize repairing the corvettes. Especially Snaggletooth. She deserves special treatment for taking out two enemy vessels. Actually, can we award the Snaggletooth a medal? The Double Tap Crosshairs - For eliminating two enemy vessels at beam range in the same combat. LLSix fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 18:33
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Crazycryodude posted:Something to consider: Saros just confirmed in the Discord that if we decide to support the Revolution, the dockworkers and shipwrights are rather understandably sympathetic to the Union revolutionaries and we can get lots of shipyard time to patch up our hosed ships right here at Saturn. Going with the Harris Plan might still get us some shipyard time, but nowhere near as much. Burning them down and leaving obviously gets us none, but it really won't matter because we'll be running home to our own shipyards anyways. That's...actually good news on the shipyard front. Very well then: 1. Revolution 2. Toppling
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Aug 10, 2017 18:46
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LLSix posted:We clobbered the IC in beam range. Beam shots do more damage than ASM because they have about 0.1% of the range of an ASM. A beam ship doesn't get to do anything if it dies to missiles first, which is what usually happens to them. And while the finale of this battle was a beam charge, it was enabled by us wrecking most of the Titan defenses with missiles first. We only resorted to it when we ran out of missiles. Also, I'm very skeptical of the idea that SB can just swoop in and improvise a counter-AstroTurf operation in a few days. People keep thinking of Earth as passive when they're very much not, and they are way more prepared for this scenario than us.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:06
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The big thing is that we are not at war with Earth. If they come we will see if they're going to deal with us or dick with us.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:10
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HiHo ChiRho posted:The big thing is that we are not at war with Earth. If they come we will see if they're going to deal with us or dick with us. We may very well be at war with Earth thanks to the sensor incident at Pluto. It's important to remember that Pluto is Earth's sovereign territory. We've put warships above it and seized a Terran facility with armed troops, so if they want to come at us they have ample justification. So if it's "dick with us" then Earth straight up gets the Saturn system, cause a BB squadron plus escorts will go right through us without slowing down. Given that we can't stop them, they have little need to seek a deal.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:25
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I mean, that would start a massive war that probably ends with both of us nuking each other into extinction..... not the kind of thing they start lightly, even if they are literal Space Nazis.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:26
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If we're that worried about the squadron and what it can do against our fleet, then earth has already won the outer system by sending 8 ships plus fighters. If they don't want to negotiate, there is not much else we can do. But we now control Saturn and are sitting on Pluto after taking it from the IC since they tried to take it. We should shake the branch first before deciding nothing is going to fall out of it.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:41
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1. Revolution 2. Toppling
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Aug 10, 2017 19:41
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Right now Earth has alot more to lose than Mars. If it looks like we won the war with the IC only to have them swoop in and claim all the spoils for themselves, there are going to be alot of people on Mars chanting for "fire and fury". Most of Earth's population doesn't give a poo poo who sells them Sorium as long as it doesn't cost too much, and would much rather take a slow diplomatic approach to resolving an IC revolution/balkanization than to try for a territory grab. Just make sure a joint Earth/Mars mission to Pluto is in there somewhere and they'll stand down. Bottom line is Earth is full of lazy entitled cowards who just need to understand how far good old fashioned Martian patriots will go when pushed.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:48
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Earth's got more than enough near-rebellious territory to worry about already, they don't want even more colonies to police in the outer system. If someone sells them sorium at an acceptable price, they don't give a single gently caress who's name is on the deed for the harvesters. They're amenable to detente, don't freak out about them suddenly declaring war on us.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:52
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Scorched Titan Look it would be nice and all to support these rebels and maybe come up with a free Saturn but some of our ships are destroyed or badly damaged whilst others are damaged. Don't forget that as Saros mentioned we are almost completely out of missiles for our ships and if the IC is smart their missiles would be incompatible with our launchers. We just don't have the strength to remain and duke it out with the IC. On top of the state of our fleet we also have to consider the fact that we would be restricted to maintaining a position where we have to protect the workers/our ground troops giving the IC the tactical advantage in positioning and maneuvering. A third consideration is if the Terran fleet heading outwards is under orders to say secure Saturn for Terra then we won't be in any condition to fight/hold them off after beating any IC attack. Gentlemen we need to trash every IC asset we can and withdraw and repair our forces for the coming conflicts ahead.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:02
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I am changing my vote from Scorch to; 1 Revolution 2 Scorch Excellent points regarding the fleet from Earth but the harvesting facilities are a significant bargaining chip which may allow us to not fight that fleet at all (at this time). We should preserve the facilities unless we are absolutely certain we cannot hold them in the immediate term, in which case we Scorch
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Aug 10, 2017 20:14
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Fray posted:Beam shots do more damage than ASM because they have about 0.1% of the range of an ASM. A beam ship doesn't get to do anything if it dies to missiles first, which is what usually happens to them. And while the finale of this battle was a beam charge, it was enabled by us wrecking most of the Titan defenses with missiles first. We only resorted to it when we ran out of missiles. Almost every combat, and every major combat so far has ended with a beam duel. Given that we're getting in beam fights anyways and that we have a decisive advantage both in beam tech and number of beam ships, we should work to maximize those advantages by closing to beam range as quickly as possible. This would also help minimize the impact of our fighter weakness by giving them less time to re-arm. It would also minimize the value of the ICs ECM advantage. Even if we were fighting someone like the UE with big tough ships, closing to beam range is a great way to neutralize tonnage advantages because beam weapons are so effective at damaging systems through heavy armor. Both because of their deeper damage profile and their ability to inflict shock damage which ignores armor altogether.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:14
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I think Saros said we'd be able to find plenty of missiles, both for the IC ships and ours. I've already mentioned the repairs, and how we'd get way more with happy Unions. The big thing I think people are missing however, is Earth's intentions. The last thing the fascist state with internal unrest problems wants is to annex a bunch of heavily armed socialist revolutionaries weeks away from their nearest fleet base. What Earth does want is sorium. Oh god do they want sorium. They consume the most out of any faction, and have no native production. The fleet is coming to make sure the sorium harvesters are protected. Political careers are destroyed by gas prices rising 30 cents, imagine what a huge spike destroying ~35% of the universe's fuel supply would do to Earth's government. They absolutely cannot afford to let us blow up the harvesters. So let's not blow up the harvesters. Instead, cut a deal with them. I'm sure Fray is typing up all the ideas we've been hammering out in the Discord right now, so I'll let him go into more detail, but a detente with Earth by giving them a portion of the harvesters is in both our best interests, and having those battleships come protect newly acquired Earth assets instead of to evict us will be a godsend for scaring off the IC.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:27
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1. Vive Le Revolution 2. Burn it all down I have no idea how IC politics work, but i rather doubt Full Scale Proletarian Uprising gives any Saturn reps influence to push for a peace deal even if Warcrimes' plan works and they get replaced. In that case, may as well go for the two options that are max gently caress THE IC.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:49
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LLSix posted:Almost every combat, and every major combat so far has ended with a beam duel. Given that we're getting in beam fights anyways and that we have a decisive advantage both in beam tech and number of beam ships, we should work to maximize those advantages by closing to beam range as quickly as possible. Part of this though is our knowledge of the IC having box launchers. This means that we are going to eat their entire missile wave regardless of what happens. So us holding off does not really mean more damage gets done to us, it means we have more time to shoot all our missiles at the IC brawlers to make that advantage go even more in our favor.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:00
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Ok, we've been hashing this out on discord and we have an idea that appears to have consensus. We really, really don't want a war with Earth right now, and if they come to Saturn guns blazing we won't be able to stop them. What we do have is control of the sorium harvesters and the ability to destroy them at a moment's notice. This is our bargaining chip. It's time to play some realpolitik. We propose to approach Earth with the following terms: + Earth and Mars will arrange joint sovereignty between us over the Saturn system. + Saturn's sorium production will be split 2:1 in favor if Earth. + Mars will back the revolution on Titan, and recognize the revolutionary government, in exchange for control of all former IC naval facilities. Earth will recognize the new Titan government and our access to these facilities. + Earth may have control of Rhea or some other moon and construct military facilities on it and station military forces there. In exchange, Earth will recognize the Kuiper Belt as within Mars' sphere of influence (this includes Pluto but try not to draw attention to that). + Earth and Mars will agree to keep their forces in the Saturn system at (roughly) equal tonnage. This means most of that big BB fleet of theirs needs to turn around and go home. + Each side may station up one brigade of garrison troops to guard our respective facilities. No offensive troop units are allowed. + Earth and Mars agree to militarily resist any attempt by IC to retake Saturn. Earth will not interfere in our war beyond that. + If Earth isn't interested in a deal, they will get nothing but wreckage and the middle finger (don't actually come out and say this but diplomatically imply it).
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Aug 10, 2017 21:10
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Approach Earth with terms has my support
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Aug 10, 2017 21:13
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Are we sure those Terran ships aren't headed to Pluto, btw? Because as far as I'm concerned there is nothing more important to us than protecting our current control of Pluto, and the possibility of establishing a dominant position in our inevitable interstellar, trans-species politics.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:21
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If they're going to Pluto they're sure taking the scenic route. They're beelining Saturn, which is southeast, while Pluto is north-northeast-ish. They could be on a dual mission to first stop any fighting in the Saturn system/protect the fuel harvesters and then go to Pluto after that's done, but they sure as poo poo ain't going to Pluto right now.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:25
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I have 4 responses to those proposed negotiation terms: 1) We're not the guys to decide on diplo things. Maybe we can make suggestions to Sen. Warcrimes + Our Boss. 2)Theres no way in hell Terra is giving us sole possesion of Pluto without seeing whats there themselves. MAYBE a joint custody arrangement. 3)Letting them have military assets near Titan? Of Equal Tonnage? Thats just begging for them to start off a war by headshotting the Titan shipyards or something similiarly damaging. 4)Lets not have this as our inital offer. Seriously.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:26
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Whatever the diplo-types eventually decide to send, we should definitely send something. Diplomatically neutralizing those battleships is one hell of a lot easier (read: even slightly possible) than doing it militarily.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:29
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Nick Esasky posted:I have 4 responses to those proposed negotiation terms: I mean, we're also not the guys to say "gently caress it, let's back this revolution," but it's a valid option on the table. I'm honestly kinda curious about this. It seems like if we're in a tactical decision making role strictly, making calls like that is disobeying orders at best. But if we're assuming narratively that these decisions have buy in from high command then I guess it's fine?
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Aug 10, 2017 21:30
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HiHo ChiRho posted:1. Viva la revolución! Rest In Particles IC
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Aug 10, 2017 21:31
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I mean, we're not some random lieutenant, we're the flag officer corps for about 3/4ths of the entire solar system. Making military decisions like whether or not to support friendly rebels within our theater is well within the scope of our powers, the entire reason a chain of command exists is so that CENTCOM doesn't have to make every single decision themselves. But I agree that seeking a detente with Earth is probably above our paygrades, that's the kind of thing the Space State Department handles. We can totally send our ideas up the chain with a request that they start talking now or we're all gonna die and see what the diplomats come back with, though.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:35
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Nick Esasky posted:I have 4 responses to those proposed negotiation terms: 1. As others have said, this is hardly the first time we've been involved in major decisions. It was we who decided to start a friggin war by intercepting an IC convoy. 2. It's true, if anything blows up the negotiations it'll be Pluto. But our first round of proposals will go for it. We still have negotiating room to soften it to some sort of tech sharing agreement. 3. Martian ships are more powerful ton-for-ton, so an equal-tonnage presence gives us the upper hand. We will also get all the existing naval facilities, so Earth will have to build from scratch before they can project significant power here. We'll be the ones with a gun pointed at Earth's only source of sorium. 4. No.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:48
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Crazycryodude posted:I mean, we're not some random lieutenant, we're the flag officer corps for about 3/4ths of the entire solar system. Making military decisions like whether or not to support friendly rebels within our theater is well within the scope of our powers, the entire reason a chain of command exists is so that CENTCOM doesn't have to make every single decision themselves. I'm just saying that it's not 100% clear to me where the line between "our paygrade" and "above our paygrade" is.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:50
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Intentionally hazy/wherever Saros decides it is. Rigid rules about what we can and can't do are no fun.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:52
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Crazycryodude posted:Intentionally hazy/wherever Saros decides it is. Rigid rules about what we can and can't do are no fun. Functionally this. You guys are the officers of Triton Fleet but also a representation of Mars political will when political decisions like to attempt negotiations etc come up.
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Aug 10, 2017 22:59
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Saros posted:Functionally this. You guys are the officers of Triton Fleet but also a representation of Mars political will when political decisions like to attempt negotiations etc come up. The Free State of Titan was founded in [whatever year we're in] when members of a Martian fleet out of Neptune and a Terran fleet thought it would be hilarious to see if their respective governments would go along with it.
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Aug 10, 2017 23:08
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One more vote for negotiate with UT, these terms seem a reasonable start to me.
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Aug 10, 2017 23:21
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Why don't we just ask them why they are on the way to Saturn before doing anything much less negotiating the partitioning of the Outer Solsys.
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Aug 10, 2017 23:31
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