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Unconditional Surrender! This greedy worm thinks we're like him. That what we're fighting for is merely property, sorium, money, figures on a balance sheet. What he doesn't understand - can't understand - is that we're not fighting for any of those things. We are not mercenaries looking for a bigger paycheck, or hostile stockholders who want a better return. We are fighting for the future of humanity! We stand on the cusp of our birthright, our finest expression of what it means to be human. We are taking our first step beyond our beloved, safe cradle and into the universe to live and breathe as adult, to insure our eternity among the stars. What kind of people shall we be out there? A cold, grasping calculus of credit flows and human "resources"? Yet another degenerate tyranny of cruel power mongers, merely the latest in a long line stretching back eons? Or what Mars represents - a place of freedom, a place of independance, a humanity of those who who are looking to a better future, not bound by the straightjackets and blinders of money and power. We shall not dishonor the fallen of our land, the bitter mixture of Red soil and Red blood that soaks it. For from such heady ground grew our true destiny, and from such a destiny we cannot shirk or turn back. The IC fights for money. The Terrans fight for power. We fight for our souls!
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Aug 30, 2017 17:24
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Nevets posted:What about a compromise where the Triumvir surrenders into the custody of the approaching Terran fleet? He agrees to stand trial in an interplanetary criminal court for warcrimes or crimes against humanity or some such. The TFS gets a promise of justice. In the meanwhile he gets to keep on living in a very gilded cage while he pays very expensive lawyers to drag out the trial and get him acquitted. I doubt he'll be willing to risk being hanged by the proles while there's a possibility he can get away by throwing money at something. The same Terrans whose designs on the TFS we're actively working to foil? No. They will use that against any trust the TFS has for us.
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Aug 30, 2017 17:31
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Accept. This is now about the next war. If our enemies know that if they're losing to us we will accept their surrender, they're less likely to fight until the bitter end and leave us with scorched
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Aug 30, 2017 17:31
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We do accept surrenders, we've been doing that the entire war despite many opportunities to warcrime defenseless IC personnel. The fact that half our fleet was built by the IC at this point is proof of that. We just only take unconditional surrenders, not this weaselly poo poo.
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Aug 30, 2017 17:33
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GunnerJ posted:I kinda feel like that's actually the strength of it? He is hosed when Terra shows up, so the clock is ticking for him. Not necessarily; Terra probably doesn't give a poo poo about him at this point and if he wants to get tied up in legalities or whatnot then that's fine with them. Terra does not care about people, it cares about sorium. Anyway given the estimates I've been presented with I'm shifting to unconditional surrender.
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Aug 30, 2017 17:33
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The real tipping point in the ground combat was the bombardment trashing the morale of many IC units. That and the absurdly good showing by the TFS means the IC tipped over well before expected. Pushing for surrender means he will doubtlessly go to ground. You can prevent travel offworld easily enough but the odds are he has a hard to find bolt hole somewhere.
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Aug 30, 2017 17:35
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Let's skip the intermediate 10 year search and just check Space Pakistan at the start.
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Aug 30, 2017 17:38
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Unconditional Surrender
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Aug 30, 2017 17:40
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Saros posted:The real tipping point in the ground combat was the bombardment trashing the morale of many IC units. That and the absurdly good showing by the TFS means the IC tipped over well before expected. For sure, but we will have him cornered. He can hide, but we will find him eventually. Or the TFS will. Either way, it is better than rolling out the red carpet and letting him leave.
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Aug 30, 2017 17:41
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Crazycryodude posted:We do accept surrenders, we've been doing that the entire war despite many opportunities to warcrime defenseless IC personnel. The fact that half our fleet was built by the IC at this point is proof of that. We just only take unconditional surrenders, not this weaselly poo poo. I'm not sure a man literally bartering for his own survival is equivalent to 'weaselly'. He's literally said he expects to be executed.
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Aug 30, 2017 17:48
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Aethernet posted:I'm not sure a man literally bartering for his own survival is equivalent to 'weaselly'. He's literally said he expects to be executed. He was selling out his own people, and holding the harvesters hostage with nukes. Pretty drat weaselly in my book.
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Aug 30, 2017 17:51
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Unconditional surrender
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Aug 30, 2017 17:52
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Crazycryodude posted:Let's skip the intermediate 10 year search and just check Space Pakistan at the start. Aren't we space Pakistan?
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Aug 30, 2017 17:59
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We are most of the population of Pakistan, in space. There's a difference 
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Aug 30, 2017 18:01
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xthetenth posted:The same Terrans whose designs on the TFS we're actively working to foil? No. They will use that against any trust the TFS has for us. It's in Terra's best interest to not execute him & piss off the IC, but they also want to keep the TFS they are trying to infiltrate pro-Terra, so they can't let him go. This means they stall, and we can pretend to be indignant that there isn't any progress being made on the trial to earn brownie points with the TFS. The triumvir is a hot potato right now, let Terra burn their hands trying to hold onto him.
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Aug 30, 2017 18:28
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Nevets posted:It's in Terra's best interest to not execute him & piss off the IC, but they also want to keep the TFS they are trying to infiltrate pro-Terra, so they can't let him go. This means they stall, and we can pretend to be indignant that there isn't any progress being made on the trial to earn brownie points with the TFS. All the while the TFS gets pissed at us for handing over the bastard to the un-involved Terrans. Yeah no, that plan doesn't help us at all.
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Aug 30, 2017 18:46
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Saros posted:Civilian casualties are around three million at the moment. About 2/3 from Triton fleet scattering 100kt warheads around and the rest from the ground fighting/misc other war related stuff. This comes to about 1.5% of the Titan population. Massive destruction but not the tens of millions people are slinging around. Don't we have some Spec-Ops Ninjas than can make him 'accidentally' disappear?
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Aug 30, 2017 18:48
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Hotdropping the SB on him now, before he can go to ground, is probably worth looking into. We've got a whole SB ship just kinda sitting in orbit doing nothing right now, I'm sure they want some action.
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Aug 30, 2017 18:56
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Crazycryodude posted:Hotdropping the SB on him now, before he can go to ground, is probably worth looking into. We've got a whole SB ship just kinda sitting in orbit doing nothing right now, I'm sure they want some action. At the same time though... do we want to entrust him to Senator Warcrimes?
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Aug 30, 2017 18:56
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Could always 'give him asylum' on one of the rocks that used to be Phobos.
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Aug 30, 2017 19:05
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Crazyeyes24 posted:At the same time though... do we want to entrust him to Senator Warcrimes? If anyone knows how to handle a high-value hostage (let's not mince words here) it'd be him.
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Aug 30, 2017 19:08
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Unconditional Surrender or nothing!
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Aug 30, 2017 19:22
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Unconditional Surrender. The Martian Federation does not recognise governments that do not hold a legitimate mandate from the people. Clearly the TFS has taken that mandate from the IC with respect to Titan so this man is nothing to us now. If SB wants to try and grab him, go for it, but I would emphasise to them that their mission is to prevent his escape. Alive would be nice but is by no means required.
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Aug 30, 2017 19:27
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Pharnakes posted:Unconditional Surrender. The Martian Federation does not recognise governments that do not hold a legitimate mandate from the people. Clearly the TFS has taken that mandate from the IC with respect to Titan so this man is nothing to us now. If SB wants to try and grab him, go for it, but I would emphasise to them that their mission is to prevent his escape. Alive would be nice but is by no means required. The Triumvir has no hope of escaping whatever Special Branch do, because we've got a fleet hanging around to board or incinerate any vessel that looks suspicious. He can try to go to ground, but on a world whose population knows his face and hates his guts, and with our commandoes hunting him down, I really don't fancy his chances. Smash the bastards until they offer unconditional surrender if we have a half-decent chance of pulling it off before the Terran fleet arrives, otherwise choke down our pride and bloodlust and accept the conditional surrender.
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Aug 30, 2017 19:34
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Yeah he probably isn't going to escape, but who knows. If we don't grab him now he very probably will go to ground and elude us for at least years. DO we really want to have to keep Titan on absolute lock down for the foreseeable future? Let's at least try to snatch him, what have we got to loose by trying?
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Aug 30, 2017 19:37
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I don't strike deals with the man, Unconditional Surrender or nothing.
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Aug 30, 2017 19:38
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Pharnakes posted:Yeah he probably isn't going to escape, but who knows. If we don't grab him now he very probably will go to ground and elude us for at least years. DO we really want to have to keep Titan on absolute lock down for the foreseeable future? Let's at least try to snatch him, what have we got to loose by trying? Free Titan will be doing most of that work anyway, so who cares? Though I do agree that we should at least try for a capture.
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Aug 30, 2017 19:50
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Also worth noting, if we end the fighting now, we give up the cover story for our purge of the Terrans from the TFS.
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Aug 30, 2017 19:57
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Crazyeyes24 posted:Also worth noting, if we end the fighting now, we give up the cover story for our purge of the Terrans from the TFS. Cowardly IC-supporting terrorists murdering the heroes of Free Titan, who will of course be buried with full military honours and their families supported with generous pensions. Dead easy.
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Aug 30, 2017 20:05
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Unconditional Surrender.Then maybe give the Terrans one of the harvesters in exchange for seizing all his Swiss bank accounts and transferring them to the Titan Fund for War Orphans. Because making him poor before hanging him from the top of one of the Titan Hab domes would be fitting.
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Aug 30, 2017 21:38
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What is the difference between unconditional surrender and accepting? And double crossing him and giving him to the people? Isn't that a "have our cake and ear it too" moment? I mean sure. Diplomacy. But who else are we ever going to negotiate with? Aliens? Earth?
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Aug 30, 2017 21:39
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Affi posted:What is the difference between unconditional surrender and accepting? The rest of the IC, when we try to buy out their remaining assets. Double cross hurts us there, and also sets a bad precedent going into any conflicts with the Terrans.
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Aug 30, 2017 21:41
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Double crossing will come back to bite us in the rear end. Might not be any time soon but it will, one way or another. That's the kind of thinking the CIA embraced in the 60s and 70s and look where that got them.
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Aug 30, 2017 21:42
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Crazyeyes24 posted:The rest of the IC, when we try to buy out their remaining assets. Double cross hurts us there, and also sets a bad precedent going into any conflicts with the Terrans. All we really need is to win here and be in a commanding position/keep the harvesters. Uranus they can blow up if they want to honestly I think the people there will rise up fairly soon. Jupiter? If they actually thrash the harvesters there we will be the only source of sorium in the system. If they give them to terra then well that is something that will probably still happen.
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Aug 30, 2017 21:47
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Unconditional Surrender. Essentially A - He is bluffing about the nukes (either having them or being willing to use them), in which case we lose nothing by forcing a surrender. or B - He isn't bluffing, in which case he attempts (and probably succeeds) in blowing up the Sorium platforms in the Saturn system. This means we go from controlling 1/4 (and contesting a further 1/4) of system-wide sorium production to controlling 1/3 with the best claim on the Saturnian sorium. The only redeeming points of giving him a conditional surrender is 1) shortening the conflict on Titan (which should be resolved one way or another before the Terrans get here), and 2) potentially salvaging the platforms. There's no guarantee though that they won't blow up the sorium harvesters anyway - either the triumvir will (if he doesn't get to walk away free) or someone further down the chain (who won't be walking away free). There may in fact not be a way to defuse the bombs - I suspect the bombs may have been built in at the very start when there was nobody to watch for them. The IC are finished - the first Triumvirate collapsed after Crassus went to war with Parthia, and there's no reason to think the IC would be any different. Even if we let this guy go, he would lose his assets and respect and would no longer be a player in any real sense. Question: If he isn't bluffing and is able to blow the harvesters, what level of civillian casualties would we expect for the TFS? If the civillian casualty levels would be high enough that the TFS ceases to be a valuable strategic asset we may have to re-evaluate our options.
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Aug 30, 2017 23:30
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The harvesters are orbital platforms around Saturn, if they blew the TFS would just lose their crews in terms of people. Titan has a population in excess of 100 million, so the people on the harvesters are negligible in comparison. Losing the harvesters would really gently caress their economy, though. Not enough to make them non-viable, I think 100+ million people are well past the critical mass to have a diverse economy, but it would make life a hell of a lot harder on them. Probably millions move away over the course of years, but the settlement doesn't disappear totally.
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Aug 30, 2017 23:36
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Crazycryodude posted:The harvesters are orbital platforms around Saturn, if they blew the TFS would just lose their crews in terms of people. Titan has a population in excess of 100 million, so the people on the harvesters are negligible in comparison. Losing the harvesters would really gently caress their economy, though. Not enough to make them non-viable, I think 100+ million people are well past the critical mass to have a diverse economy, but it would make life a hell of a lot harder on them. Probably millions move away over the course of years, but the settlement doesn't disappear totally. And I take it we could support it until it is able to become viable again? How long would it take to get Sorium production back up again? I still think we need to bite the bullet. If this guy can blow up the harvesters, he will do it at some point. Pushing him forces his hand to do it now, meaning the situation will be resolved (one way or the other) by the time the Terrans get here. If we allow him to negotiate a personal surrender he either gets away Scot-free or blows the harvesters later. In addition to this everyone will know we negotiated with him (including the TFS).
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Aug 30, 2017 23:58
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What happens if he blows it up? What does Terra do? I'd laugh if he spares us war with Terra trying to inconvenience us.
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Aug 31, 2017 00:00
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Yeah they'll still have a nice big shipyard we can lease for exorbitant amounts to subside them for the few years it would take to either rebuild the harvesters or transition their economy to something not sorium-based off it came down to that. I wouldn't be too worried about Titan's long term viability unless the IC goes full warcrimes and starts carpet-nuking them as revenge or whatever. E: X, Earth would be turbo pissed and gently caress him to the Heliopause and back with no lube. Then possibly glare really hard at us for allowing out to happen. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 00:03
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Demand unconditional surrender, if he wants to detonate nuclear weapons causing major civlian casualties, let him. And let us see if that does not constitute casus belli to wipe the IC off the face of the solar system. If the IC demolish their assets and have no fleet, why would Terra want to keep them around? Negotiation is for when you have not already done the majority of the work. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 00:25
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