Jedit posted:No, he didn't. That's how Lyta's mind interpreted Kosh's memory of the event, but Kosh himself had to have been poisoned through his encounter suit. It's the big unexplained plot hole of the pilot. I haven't seen The Gathering in a very long time but isn't the sequence of events... Kosh comes out of his ship. The security cameras are turned off under specific instructions from the Vorlon government. Kosh sees 'Sinclair', whom he knows is Valen. Why Kosh doesn't have any awareness of the Minbari under the Net is a question. Kosh extends a hand/tentacle/whatever in greeting. 'Sinclair' applies poison to hand/tentacle/whatever. Kosh collapses. Later, Lyta interprets as a hand because she has a human mind -- also, Kosh was aware of her on some level (the encounter suit opens before she touches it). Why would Kosh have to have been poisoned through the suit when we plainly see him extending a limb? How is it a plot hole? We've seen plenty of times that Kosh can open up his encounter suit to no ill-effect, because the encounter suit is a disguise and not actually a life-support mechanism. edit: I mean, I can find heaps of things where people are saying "JMS, how did Kosh get poisoned if he's wearing a suit?" and responses like "It's not a plot hole but a plot point", it wasn't "faked" by Kosh, and even a "It didn't have to get past the encounter suit; he was distinctly shown extending a portion of himself *outside* the suit." Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 08:49
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Narsham posted:Some actors rely a lot on directors, especially if they're uncomfortable with their role, and some don't. I think much of the "bad acting" in the early part of the show is down to actors getting little or no help from their directors. Try watching S1 performances from episode to episode tracking the director and you'll see some interesting variation. Season 1 is really the only time you can sort of notice that Biggs is deaf, because the shot framing has him staring to the other actors mouths very often. Once you get to the second season they don't frame him with other actors, they'll switch cameras instead. Also tidbit: JMS hated Jerry Doyle's habits of putting his hand in his pockets because it hosed with continuity and caused reshoots, so he ended up giving him uniforms without pockets. Doyle responded to this by punching his fists through the sitched seams and driving the costumers crazy. Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 09:22
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Milky Moor posted:Why would Kosh have to have been poisoned through the suit when we plainly see him extending a limb? How is it a plot hole? We've seen plenty of times that Kosh can open up his encounter suit to no ill-effect, because the encounter suit is a disguise and not actually a life-support mechanism. I'm not sure "plot hole" is the right term, but it's certainly inconsistent/strange. Throughout the series, Vorlons fiercely hide their identity until the time is right. It's a big point that no one has ever seen a Vorlon. Then Kosh sees Sinclair and goes in for a human-style handshake? I get that Sinclair is going to be important, but you don't see Kosh ever trying this again. Sinclair visits him plenty of times in his quarters, and Kosh is always in his suit, except for that time when he's a ball of light behind a screen, and makes a point of whizzing into his suit when Sinclair isn't looking. Yes, in The Gathering Kosh could easily have been literally shaking Sinclair's hand, but it's a familiar and very human gesture for a species that builds an identity around being aloof, indirect and guarded. Kosh simply isn't the handshaking type, except for this one time when the plot requires it. So either they aren't shaking hands, in which case what actually is happening, or they are shaking hands and it's totally out of character. Considering that the Vorlons seem generally out of character in The Gathering, I'm assuming the latter. It's a pilot. It happens. Also worth noting that they actually added in the line where's Kosh is all like "yo, Valen" when he goes for a handshake for the special edition, presumably to justify this familiarity and try make it seem less out of character. That in itself is pretty odd, as well as a big spoiler. Also it makes Kosh seem like he doesn't understand what's going on. Lucky Sinclair wasn't like "Wait... I'm Valen?? Holy crap, this changes everything..."
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Sep 20, 2017 09:51
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Dirty posted:I'm not sure "plot hole" is the right term, but it's certainly inconsistent/strange. Throughout the series, Vorlons fiercely hide their identity until the time is right. It's a big point that no one has ever seen a Vorlon. Then Kosh sees Sinclair and goes in for a human-style handshake? I get that Sinclair is going to be important, but you don't see Kosh ever trying this again. Sinclair visits him plenty of times in his quarters, and Kosh is always in his suit, except for that time when he's a ball of light behind a screen, and makes a point of whizzing into his suit when Sinclair isn't looking. Sinclair is Valen. Kosh being deliberately enigmatic on numerous occasions (rushing into his suit, basically laughing about the Feeder, giving Sinclair the cold shoulder by shutting down his suit at one point) isn't really an argument against Kosh recognising Valen. Arguing that Kosh wouldn't handshake is weird, particularly in any context involving the actual messiah figure Valen. As mentioned, even the Vorlon government knew that something was going to happen between Kosh and Sinclair that required absolute secrecy -- maybe something identity related (why request the cameras be turned off otherwise?) quote:Yes, in The Gathering Kosh could easily have been literally shaking Sinclair's hand, but it's a familiar and very human gesture for a species that builds an identity around being aloof, indirect and guarded. Kosh simply isn't the handshaking type, except for this one time when the plot requires it. So either they aren't shaking hands, in which case what actually is happening, or they are shaking hands and it's totally out of character. Considering that the Vorlons seem generally out of character in The Gathering, I'm assuming the latter. It's a pilot. It happens. This one time 'when the plot requires it' is an incredibly weird 'one time'. It isn't like Kosh was getting his mail. quote:Also worth noting that they actually added in the line where's Kosh is all like "yo, Valen" when he goes for a handshake for the special edition, presumably to justify this familiarity and try make it seem less out of character. That in itself is pretty odd, as well as a big spoiler. Also it makes Kosh seem like he doesn't understand what's going on. Lucky Sinclair wasn't like "Wait... I'm Valen?? Holy crap, this changes everything..." You are overthinking this and imagining possible problems instead of engaging with the text as-is. For example, why do you assume Sinclair would have any idea what Kosh meant, or even interpret it as anything other than a greeting? It's a big leap to assume that he, Sinclair, is also Valen. How could Sinclair possibly figure it out? For all he knows, it's a weird Vorlon ritual. There's a big thread running through B5, albeit one that gets dropped and picked up seemingly at random, that the Vorlons knew exactly what was going on. For example, an earlier version of Severed Dreams had the Vorlons riding in to protect B5 instead of the Minbari. But if you want to argue the evolving production side of things, that's a whole different conversation. In that case, Gathering-Sinclair isn't Valen at all. But also, JMS has said that the Valen remark is Kosh's internal thoughts, so... Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 10:39
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Milky Moor posted:Kosh being deliberately enigmatic on numerous occasions (rushing into his suit, basically laughing about the Feeder, giving Sinclair the cold shoulder by shutting down his suit at one point) isn't really an argument against Kosh recognising Valen. quote:Arguing that Kosh wouldn't handshake is weird, particularly in any context involving the actual messiah figure Valen. As mentioned, even the Vorlon government knew that something was going to happen between Kosh and Sinclair that required absolute secrecy -- maybe something identity related (why request the cameras be turned off otherwise?) quote:This one time 'when the plot requires it' is an incredibly weird 'one time'. It isn't like Kosh was getting his mail. quote:You are overthinking this and imagining possible problems instead of engaging with the text as-is.
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Sep 20, 2017 11:12
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Considering Kosh was also surgically operated on in the The Gathering, the real takeaway from it is "it's the series pilot and things changed". Especially when it aired a full year before the series got underway.
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Sep 20, 2017 11:17
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I had a job interview at a school. I introduced myself with a handshake to the man doing my interview. When I came to start my first day, I didn't handshake him again. Is my behavior inconsistent? I can't argue against something you feel. But there's a difference between feeling something is inconsistent and something actually being inconsistent. quote:that kind of implies that the Minbari agent knew Kosh was going to do that. Which raises some questions. This is definitely more of a weird thing that doesn't make much sense.
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Sep 20, 2017 11:19
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Considering Kosh was also surgically operated on in the The Gathering, the real takeaway from it is "it's the series pilot and things changed". Especially when it aired a full year before the series got underway. Vorlons have physical forms.
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Sep 20, 2017 11:21
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I've never bought the Kosh "Valen" line as a spoiler- considering that at the time it's just a nonsense sci-fi word in a pilot uttered by a mysterious source. I watched that version of The Gathering and wasn't later let down during the Valen reveal. It more feels like a rewatch easter egg.
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Sep 20, 2017 11:26
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Milky Moor posted:Vorlons have physical forms. Yes as energy
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Sep 20, 2017 11:30
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Milky Moor posted:I had a job interview at a school. I introduced myself with a handshake to the man doing my interview. When I came to start my first day, I didn't handshake him again. Is my behavior inconsistent? Well that depends. Was the man doing an interview actually not really him, but an agent from a different school trying to kill you. Once everything had been sorted out, on your first real meeting, did you then go for that handshake, or politely refuse because you'd already shook hands with someone who looked like him? Do you also engage in other social norms with this person? The handshake is strange because it sits totally in isolation. There's a whole level of interaction missing there that makes the handshake... well... inconsistent. Kosh never otherwise has any interactions with Sinclair that fit in with starting your relationship with a warm handshake. quote:But there's a difference between feeling something is inconsistent and something actually being inconsistent. As I've said, this is where I sit: Neddy Seagoon posted:... the real takeaway from it is "it's the series pilot and things changed". Especially when it aired a full year before the series got underway.
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Sep 20, 2017 11:48
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Clouseau posted:I've never bought the Kosh "Valen" line as a spoiler- considering that at the time it's just a nonsense sci-fi word in a pilot uttered by a mysterious source. I watched that version of The Gathering and wasn't later let down during the Valen reveal. It more feels like a rewatch easter egg. Yes, true. They say "Valen" a lot, but not that much. And I think Kosh says "Entil'Zah Valen" or something, so yeah it's even muddier. Kosh just saying "hi" in Vorlonese, you wouldn't really know where those words start and end.
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Sep 20, 2017 11:50
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bobkatt013 posted:Yes as energy Incorrect. A lot of noise is made about the Vorlons being 'energy beings', like they're ghosts, but it's inaccurate. The Vorlons have physicality. They have a physical form that can be poisoned and ripped apart (and you'd assume Lyta is being pretty accurate!) Again, you have to go to JMS' comments on this, but I think even The Gathering mentions that Kosh's physical form is weird and crystalline (hence why the poison worked on Kosh in the first place). Look at the far-future human in Deconstruction. He has a physical form and can also take on properties of light and energy (turning into a ball). The Vorlons have physicality -- Kosh can be poisoned on his hand, Kosh can catch Sheridan, Kosh can be ripped apart by Shadows, Kosh can get tired and require rest -- but can also render themselves somewhat insubstantial (Kosh and Kosh 2 flying through Babylon 5's decks). Essentially, the Vorlons can incarnate. And, if they can do that, it's not a stretch to assume that taking a physical form can make them vulnerable. Shadows have fallen to PPG fire before, after all. And they are older than the Vorlons. Dirty posted:Well that depends. Was the man doing an interview actually not really him, but an agent from a different school trying to kill you. Once everything had been sorted out, on your first real meeting, did you then go for that handshake, or politely refuse because you'd already shook hands with someone who looked like him? Hah, good point. Got me there. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 12:13
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Milky Moor posted:Incorrect. The problem is you're still relying on The Gathering's events as the crux of your argument and; Neddy Seagoon posted:...the real takeaway from it is "it's the series pilot and things changed". Especially when it aired a full year before the series got underway. The series proper brushes over those events pretty casually for just the key details it needs (Someone tried to assassinate Kosh, Lyta getting a look inside the Encounter Suit and touching Kosh's mind). Don't forget Delenn's Magic Rings, the Changeling Net, the phaser knockoff PPG's, and the flying camera drones following Sinclair. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 13:08
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Neddy Seagoon posted:...the flying camera drones following Sinclair... They show up elsewhere! The reporters in "And Now for a Word" and "Illusion of Truth" have them!
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Sep 20, 2017 13:11
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Angry Salami posted:They show up elsewhere! The reporters in "And Now for a Word" and "Illusion of Truth" have them! I stand corrected then on that one 
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Sep 20, 2017 13:12
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The problem is you're still relying on The Gathering's events as the crux of your argument and; When talking about a text should I not rely on the text-as-presented? My evidence comes directly from the text. I'm arguing what is there, what we were told and what we were shown. I'm not here to talk headcanons built from 'feelings' about the text. For example, here is something else we were shown that supports my argument -- that is, an energy being taking a corporeal form to physically affect the world around him: Lorien. Neddy Seagoon posted:I stand corrected then on that one The Changling Net is also mentioned a few times throughout the series proper. Lyta's whole arc is based off the events of The Gathering, too. It's not exactly brushed over.
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Sep 20, 2017 13:28
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but seriously what happened to lorien's ship
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Sep 20, 2017 13:32
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I probably wouldn't ever shake hands again if it got me poisoned the first time.
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Sep 20, 2017 16:15
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Milky Moor posted:When talking about a text should I not rely on the text-as-presented? If you want an explanation in-setting that explains what we actually see, simply imagine that Sinclair described this incident to Kosh after travelling back in time and that leads to Kosh deliberately allowing himself to be poisoned by extending a hand/whatever. Milky Moor posted:but seriously what happened to lorien's ship Obviously, there was never a ship: that was all Lorien. The Babylon 5 Wars game (which is, arguably, canon, or at least JMS endorsed) identifies one of the First One groups as the Triad, a group of three entities born immortal like Lorien who have the ability to create limited amounts of matter at will and who thus can create ships that way. When they stop maintaining a ship, it just disperses again. So Lorien just did that. You would think someone would notice it was missing, but presumably we just missed that scene. Would have been useful for Garibaldi to notice and add that to the list of suspicions.
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Sep 21, 2017 05:02
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We just watched "Objects in Motion" as we've been putting off the end of this. I'll tell you this, I've been enjoying DS9, but coming back to B5 is like the first time you open the windows in springtime. I can't think of any other show that has a whole quarter of the last season as epilogue and denouement, but it is so good to have this.
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Oct 5, 2017 04:02
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I'm doing a slow re-watch on a lunch break or two a week. Last night I skipped ahead to The Coming of Shadows. Oh god that was the good stuff.
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Oct 5, 2017 04:19
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:I can't think of any other show that has a whole quarter of the last season as epilogue and denouement, but it is so good to have this. I've got an answer to this, but you won't like it. It's Girls.
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Oct 5, 2017 04:20
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I don't even know what that is, haha. And I suspect I wouldn't care if I did.
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Oct 5, 2017 04:29
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:We just watched "Objects in Motion" as we've been putting off the end of this. I'll tell you this, I've been enjoying DS9, but coming back to B5 is like the first time you open the windows in springtime. DS9 still has all the trappings and window dressings of the TNG trek so it doesn't have the same feel as B5 once it goes into the darker plot territory. Also, aside from Sisko and Dukat no one could yell and get loud and really command a screen presence and mean it. Whereas in B5 you had Londo, Garibaldi, G'Kar, Franklin, Sheridan, Delenn, Ivanova, Sinclair, etc. Even a lot of the guest actors showed up ready to act in intense scenes and brought their A game.
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Oct 5, 2017 05:35
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:
Six feet under did!
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Oct 5, 2017 05:52
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What I wouldn't give to listen to Garak and Londo have a conversation over dinner.
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Oct 5, 2017 05:52
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The Unlife Aquatic posted:What I wouldn't give to listen to Garak and Londo have a conversation over dinner. Dude. Gul Dukat and G'Kar.
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Oct 5, 2017 06:43
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You know that'd degenerate into a fight within five minutes. G'Kar would do his weird squatting combat stance and Dukat would bring the double handed axe handle.
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Oct 5, 2017 09:15
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G'Kar and Kira would be good for a wholly different reason. And I'm trying to decide if Odo and Garibaldi would get along, or hate each other. But for my money, give me Quark and Morden.
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Oct 5, 2017 12:54
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:
They'd have the most cordial conversation and then, the moment the other was out of sight/earshot, they'd begin a full-scale investigation.
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Oct 5, 2017 14:19
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ConfusedUs posted:They'd have the most cordial conversation and then, the moment the other was out of sight/earshot, they'd begin a full-scale investigation. That's absurd and stupid. They'd have profiled eachother well before the conversation.
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Oct 5, 2017 14:25
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How about Bashir and Zathras? Or Dax and Ivanova?
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Oct 5, 2017 15:26
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Narsham posted:How about Bashir and Zathras? Or Dax and Ivanova? Bashir would just have an increasingly confused, then baffled, then dumbfounded look on his face the longer it went on.
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Oct 5, 2017 15:40
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*click* *click* *click* "Zathras see O'Brien have very sad life too."
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Oct 5, 2017 16:11
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Bareil and Byron. Bareil is silent because Byron is too boring to talk to and Byron won't read Bareil's mind because it's just too boring.
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Oct 5, 2017 16:15
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Sisko and Sheridan would be natural allies, and unstoppable. I'm not sure about Lwaxana and Lady Morella though....
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Oct 5, 2017 16:31
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Ivanova and Chekov would spend the whole crossover discussing all the cool poo poo Russians invented.
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Oct 5, 2017 21:39
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Delsaber posted:Ivanova and Chekov would spend the whole crossover discussing all the cool poo poo Russians invented. "Wait, don't I know you?
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Oct 5, 2017 21:50
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Bester would eat Chekov alive. Morn would fit right in on B5.
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Oct 6, 2017 03:59
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