Al Borland Corp. posted:

I wouldn't stress about things being out of order. Apart from this essentially two parter, all of the episodes are designed as standalone. The fourth episode synopsis (which was second filmed episode) is dealing with some Krill problem, which they probably felt would be redundant immediately after the pilot.

One interesting thing I'm surprised I hadn't noticed yet: There isn't any "ship's computer" that the characters talk to and responds to their verbal commands. If they want to do anything they have to press buttons and check screens.

Asimo posted:

Okay yeah, this is...actually lot better than expected. I wasn't sold by the first episode; the writing sure wasn't anything special, and the comedy side was forced and - worse - not all that funny. But it was earnest enough in style that I caught the next two on hulu, and it's noticeably improving with each episode so far. The second was still rough, but the character interactions were fun and it was more clearly a sincere sci-fi plot, and as already noted the third could basically have been dropped wholesale into TNG and you wouldn't notice. The comedy elements were a lot better fitted to the scenario too, and the foibles of the crew help keep the morality play Trek-style stuff from being too stuffy. I'm not sure it's really a... good show yet, but it's entertaining and I kind of want to see where they take it.

The only explanation I can think of for the horrible reviews is basically a bunch of reviewers outing themselves as lazy shits and only watching the awkward first episode (or even better, only parts thereof) and just assuming the rest would be like it.

Al Borland Corp. posted:

One interesting thing I'm surprised I hadn't noticed yet: There isn't any "ship's computer" that the characters talk to and responds to their verbal commands. If they want to do anything they have to press buttons and check screens.

Comrade Fakename posted:

As far as I remember, none of the pre-release reviews criticised this episode for being offensive, just for being over-preachy and heavy handed. And they were right, because while perhaps not politically offensive, this episode was offensively bad in every other regard. I am embarrassed for everyone involved.

So the big problems with this episode (outside of the general show problems like how cheap it looks, how badly it's acted, how stilted the dialogue is, etc) are in two sections: the sci-fi plot and the humour.

Plot: So, it's full of issues. We're talking about an alien race here, that both the viewers and, for some reason the characters, know almost nothing about. So, until the twist at the end, for all we (and the characters) know the Maclans are 100% to "correct" for being female. Maybe for them females really are drastically less healthy, or strong, or smart than males. Maybe females die after just a couple of years. Until the twist, we, and they, have no idea. And yet this possibility is never brought up, despite the fact that it's the most likely scenario, more likely than the Maclans never bothered to do a Ctrl-F: Ladies scan on their own planet.

Ex-wife's lawyering is awful. Her proof that a female of a completely different species is strong is completely irrelevant. And to demonstrate a stupid man she asks the ginger guy who I found quite charming on ER but is surprisingly unlikable in this a series of questions that we have no context to their obscurity in the future setting of the show. In hundreds of years time, the capital of the USA could very well be irrelevant knowledge to almost everyone. Suffice to say, her intended audience, the Maclans would be even more in the dark than than the viewers. Her bad lawyering is never intended as a plot point or anything. We're still supposed to see her as competent.

For all that, why are the characters so in the dark about Maclan customs anyway? Assuming the Union is a carbon copy of the Federation (and since everything else is, it's a safe bet) wouldn't Maclan have been heavily vetted before entry? And yet everyone on board the ship (which we assume is a fairly representative slice of Union culture) reels at horror at what is apparently a pretty central element of Maclan culture. How did Maclan even get into the Union?

These are basic errors of worldbuilding here.

Humour: Seth McFarlane only knows how to make sitcoms, and the wackier end of sitcoms at that. His goal to make a dramedy is understandable, even laudable, but he has no idea how to do it. So comedy is often completely at odds with the tone, or character or plot. Why were the two leads apparently sincerely suggesting the Maclan guy play Monopoly with them? It might have been a funny aside, but this was in the middle of a tense diplomatic negotiation. It was almost surreal.

The main dad's decision not to change his daughter should have been the crux of the entire show, and yet it is totally undermined by him out of nowhere completely 180 changing his firmly held belief because he watched Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. And for that matter, why did two characters who the dad had no previously shown cameraderie with turn up (at a time when the entire ship - including the two interlopers - were disgusted with his morals) with brewskies and a DVD of a children's cartoon anyway? It was one of the worst contrivencies I've ever seen.

I know everyone loves TNG, and would love to see it back, but seriously this is so far below TNG it's unreal. Even at its worst TNG was a show with boatloads of heart. This is cack-handed self-insert fan fiction.

Comrade Fakename posted:

Ex-wife's lawyering is awful. Her proof that a female of a completely different species is strong is completely irrelevant. And to demonstrate a stupid man she asks the ginger guy who I found quite charming on ER but is surprisingly unlikable in this a series of questions that we have no context to their obscurity in the future setting of the show. In hundreds of years time, the capital of the USA could very well be irrelevant knowledge to almost everyone. Suffice to say, her intended audience, the Maclans would be even more in the dark than than the viewers. Her bad lawyering is never intended as a plot point or anything. We're still supposed to see her as competent.

Comrade Fakename posted:

As far as I remember, none of the pre-release reviews criticised this episode for being offensive, just for being over-preachy and heavy handed. And they were right, because while perhaps not politically offensive, this episode was offensively bad in every other regard. I am embarrassed for everyone involved.

So the big problems with this episode (outside of the general show problems like how cheap it looks, how badly it's acted, how stilted the dialogue is, etc) are in two sections: the sci-fi plot and the humour.

Plot: So, it's full of issues. We're talking about an alien race here, that both the viewers and, for some reason the characters, know almost nothing about. So, until the twist at the end, for all we (and the characters) know the Maclans are 100% to "correct" for being female. Maybe for them females really are drastically less healthy, or strong, or smart than males. Maybe females die after just a couple of years. Until the twist, we, and they, have no idea. And yet this possibility is never brought up, despite the fact that it's the most likely scenario, more likely than the Maclans never bothered to do a Ctrl-F: Ladies scan on their own planet.

Ex-wife's lawyering is awful. Her proof that a female of a completely different species is strong is completely irrelevant. And to demonstrate a stupid man she asks the ginger guy who I found quite charming on ER but is surprisingly unlikable in this a series of questions that we have no context to their obscurity in the future setting of the show. In hundreds of years time, the capital of the USA could very well be irrelevant knowledge to almost everyone. Suffice to say, her intended audience, the Maclans would be even more in the dark than than the viewers. Her bad lawyering is never intended as a plot point or anything. We're still supposed to see her as competent.

For all that, why are the characters so in the dark about Maclan customs anyway? Assuming the Union is a carbon copy of the Federation (and since everything else is, it's a safe bet) wouldn't Maclan have been heavily vetted before entry? And yet everyone on board the ship (which we assume is a fairly representative slice of Union culture) reels at horror at what is apparently a pretty central element of Maclan culture. How did Maclan even get into the Union?

These are basic errors of worldbuilding here.

Humour: Seth McFarlane only knows how to make sitcoms, and the wackier end of sitcoms at that. His goal to make a dramedy is understandable, even laudable, but he has no idea how to do it. So comedy is often completely at odds with the tone, or character or plot. Why were the two leads apparently sincerely suggesting the Maclan guy play Monopoly with them? It might have been a funny aside, but this was in the middle of a tense diplomatic negotiation. It was almost surreal.

The main dad's decision not to change his daughter should have been the crux of the entire show, and yet it is totally undermined by him out of nowhere completely 180 changing his firmly held belief because he watched Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. And for that matter, why did two characters who the dad had no previously shown cameraderie with turn up (at a time when the entire ship - including the two interlopers - were disgusted with his morals) with brewskies and a DVD of a children's cartoon anyway? It was one of the worst contrivencies I've ever seen.

I know everyone loves TNG, and would love to see it back, but seriously this is so far below TNG it's unreal. Even at its worst TNG was a show with boatloads of heart. This is cack-handed self-insert fan fiction.

Comrade Fakename posted:

The main dad's decision not to change his daughter should have been the crux of the entire show, and yet it is totally undermined by him out of nowhere completely 180 changing his firmly held belief because he watched Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. And for that matter, why did two characters who the dad had no previously shown cameraderie with turn up (at a time when the entire ship - including the two interlopers - were disgusted with his morals) with brewskies and a DVD of a children's cartoon anyway? It was one of the worst contrivencies I've ever seen.

Regy Rusty posted:

I only wanna address this point because it feels like you missed the whole idea here. It's supposed to be silly. You've got these two goofy idiots who see the situation and think of a children's movie that has a passing relevance to the situation and think it's a fuckin brilliant idea to try and convince Bortus using it. The fact that it actually works is supposed to be absurd and amusing. This dude having a major life changing revelation because of Rudolph the Red Nosed loving Reindeer is just great.

Comrade Fakename posted:

As far as I remember, none of the pre-release reviews criticised this episode for being offensive, just for being over-preachy and heavy handed. And they were right, because while perhaps not politically offensive, this episode was offensively bad in every other regard. I am embarrassed for everyone involved.

So the big problems with this episode (outside of the general show problems like how cheap it looks, how badly it's acted, how stilted the dialogue is, etc) are in two sections: the sci-fi plot and the humour.

Plot: So, it's full of issues. We're talking about an alien race here, that both the viewers and, for some reason the characters, know almost nothing about. So, until the twist at the end, for all we (and the characters) know the Maclans are 100% to "correct" for being female. Maybe for them females really are drastically less healthy, or strong, or smart than males. Maybe females die after just a couple of years. Until the twist, we, and they, have no idea. And yet this possibility is never brought up, despite the fact that it's the most likely scenario, more likely than the Maclans never bothered to do a Ctrl-F: Ladies scan on their own planet.

Ex-wife's lawyering is awful. Her proof that a female of a completely different species is strong is completely irrelevant. And to demonstrate a stupid man she asks the ginger guy who I found quite charming on ER but is surprisingly unlikable in this a series of questions that we have no context to their obscurity in the future setting of the show. In hundreds of years time, the capital of the USA could very well be irrelevant knowledge to almost everyone. Suffice to say, her intended audience, the Maclans would be even more in the dark than than the viewers. Her bad lawyering is never intended as a plot point or anything. We're still supposed to see her as competent.

For all that, why are the characters so in the dark about Maclan customs anyway? Assuming the Union is a carbon copy of the Federation (and since everything else is, it's a safe bet) wouldn't Maclan have been heavily vetted before entry? And yet everyone on board the ship (which we assume is a fairly representative slice of Union culture) reels at horror at what is apparently a pretty central element of Maclan culture. How did Maclan even get into the Union?

These are basic errors of worldbuilding here.

Humour: Seth McFarlane only knows how to make sitcoms, and the wackier end of sitcoms at that. His goal to make a dramedy is understandable, even laudable, but he has no idea how to do it. So comedy is often completely at odds with the tone, or character or plot. Why were the two leads apparently sincerely suggesting the Maclan guy play Monopoly with them? It might have been a funny aside, but this was in the middle of a tense diplomatic negotiation. It was almost surreal.

The main dad's decision not to change his daughter should have been the crux of the entire show, and yet it is totally undermined by him out of nowhere completely 180 changing his firmly held belief because he watched Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. And for that matter, why did two characters who the dad had no previously shown cameraderie with turn up (at a time when the entire ship - including the two interlopers - were disgusted with his morals) with brewskies and a DVD of a children's cartoon anyway? It was one of the worst contrivencies I've ever seen.

I know everyone loves TNG, and would love to see it back, but seriously this is so far below TNG it's unreal. Even at its worst TNG was a show with boatloads of heart. This is cack-handed self-insert fan fiction.

Accretionist posted:

This is an extension of my general distaste for 'running into doors'

You kick open doors. The shoulder's a crap joint. It is not suitable to battering.

Comrade Fakename posted:

For all that, why are the characters so in the dark about Maclan customs anyway? Assuming the Union is a carbon copy of the Federation (and since everything else is, it's a safe bet) wouldn't Maclan have been heavily vetted before entry? And yet everyone on board the ship (which we assume is a fairly representative slice of Union culture) reels at horror at what is apparently a pretty central element of Maclan culture. How did Maclan even get into the Union?

Hipster_Doofus posted:

e: think I'm just gonna rewatch B5 to fill the hole I'd hoped to have filled; I was long overdue anyway. At least I already know I have 5 seasons of that.

Comrade Fakename posted:

Regy Rusty posted:

I only wanna address this point because it feels like you missed the whole idea here. It's supposed to be silly. You've got these two goofy idiots who see the situation and think of a children's movie that has a passing relevance to the situation and think it's a fuckin brilliant idea to try and convince Bortus using it. The fact that it actually works is supposed to be absurd and amusing. This dude having a major life changing revelation because of Rudolph the Red Nosed loving Reindeer is just great.

Snak posted:

I also like that Bortas sees Kermit and Rudolph valuable legendary characters. With the original kermit joke, it seems like Bortas doesn't understand what Kermit is and the captain passes him off as... More prestigious than he is. But after Rudolph, it's clear tha Bortas, and his culture, place great value in stories.

Snak posted:

I also like that Bortas sees Kermit and Rudolph valuable legendary characters. With the original kermit joke, it seems like Bortas doesn't understand what Kermit is and the captain passes him off as... More prestigious than he is. But after Rudolph, it's clear tha Bortas, and his culture, place great value in stories.

turn left hillary!! noo posted:

Comrade Fakename posted:

I think fundamentally you're expecting this show to be something it's not trying to be.

vermin posted:

I really liked the look of their homeworld. I'm a sucker for industrial hellscapes and cultures/species dedicated to war.

The Deviations posted:

I can't remember where I read it, but someone on the internet said that the show bit off more than it could chew here. I slightly disagree; the crew did the biting and inadequate mastication - which from a viewer's perspective is awesome. (I hope the universe regularly overwhelming these idiots in a tin can is part of the show's MO. Sign me the gently caress up for this.)

DrPlump posted:

I think it comes back around perfectly at the end the part where he gives his child the reindeer is super sad.

Paradoxish posted:

People keep saying things like this (I think someone else mentioned The Orville being like Down Periscope in space at some point), but this feels more like head canon than something the writers are intentionally going for. Nothing that's said in the show implies the Orville is supposed to be some piece of crap, it's just a generic ship that's not particularly special. Mercer isn't given the command because it's a poo poo assignment, he's given it because there's a shortage of qualified people. Only him and pilot guy are explicitly supposed to be out of place, everyone else is at least supposed to be good at their jobs.

Issues like this are why critics keep complaining about the show being tonally weird, not because they just all have a raging, unquenchable hatred for Seth MacFarlane.

Snak posted:

The average person in real life is loving terrible at their job.

Edit: and this is the subject of basically every workplace comedy series ever made.

The_Doctor posted:

Can confirm. Earlier this week, there was the rumour that I'll be taking over as manager of the tail end of my work's current project. I'm basically a glorified admin person, and the idea terrified me.

Paradoxish posted:

People keep saying things like this (I think someone else mentioned The Orville being like Down Periscope in space at some point), but this feels more like head canon than something the writers are intentionally going for. Nothing that's said in the show implies the Orville is supposed to be some piece of crap, it's just a generic ship that's not particularly special. Mercer isn't given the command because it's a poo poo assignment, he's given it because there's a shortage of qualified people. Only him and pilot guy are explicitly supposed to be out of place, everyone else is at least supposed to be good at their jobs.

Issues like this are why critics keep complaining about the show being tonally weird, not because they just all have a raging, unquenchable hatred for Seth MacFarlane.

Snak posted:

The average person in real life is loving terrible at their job.

Edit: and this is the subject of basically every workplace comedy series ever made.

Paradoxish posted:

I don't even dislike the show, I just find the "hurr the reviewers are all biased" attitude in this thread really tiring.

Variety posted:

An air of self-congratulation hangs over the entire hour, as if MacFarlane, who wrote it, couldn’t get over his awe at his own bravery in engaging with a difficult, complex topic. Without giving anything away, suffice it to say that the show takes a big creative swing tackling issues of gender and identity, but it does not connect, and the end result is disastrous. If it’s challenging for “The Orville” to wring laughs from the audience, it’s all but impossible for it to earn the dramatic (and tone-deaf) conclusion it attempts in the third episode.

SF Chronicle posted:

Bortus and his partner Klydon (Chad L. Coleman) come from a single-gender race and learn they are going to be parents. The infant turns out to be female. Klydon wants to have the child’s gender altered; Bortus does not. The dispute plays out in complete seriousness, drenched with import and pronouncements about gender reassignment and female empowerment.

Vox posted:

The Orville sure looks amazing. Set on a sleek spaceship in a galaxy far, far away, the new Fox show spares no expense on its sweeping space vistas, the prosthetics of its alien crew members, the sleek weaponry, the gorgeous foreign planets teeming with otherworldly life.

same Vox review posted:

Without getting into the specifics of the story, I can at least tell you that the way this episode plays out makes it one of the most transparent and least necessary takes on the vast complexities of gender. The episode, written by MacFarlane, clearly thinks it’s shedding light and nuance on a fraught topic; it’s unclear if MacFarlane, a straight cis white guy, consulted anyone other than himself on said topic. But I would be shocked to discover that was the case, since the episode just ends up reciting bullet points too simplistic even for the transgender Wikipedia entry, and letting characters exchange the same basic arguments in scene after excruciating scene.

Indiewire posted:

But then there’s Episode 3, which, without spoilers, may be one of the most tone-deaf and offensive discussions of gender ever seen on screen, especially in an era when many people have come to embrace the idea that gender is a concept that goes beyond biology to personal identity.

precision posted:

It's not so much that they seem biased, it's that the reviews don't even seem to line up with reality.