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Burnham gets ordered back to sickbay right after she goes to the bridge. She returns from sickbay 2 hours later.
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Sep 26, 2017 21:20
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And More posted:I was unsure whether I'd like Enterprise, until this dude had his second appearance: That the words 'Jeffery Combs' aren't normally proceeded with the words 'Hollywood Megastar' is a goddamn crime. There's a wider point though, I literally can't imagine some of the more fun characters like Shran, Rom, Q, or Mudd existing in this universe. (I know, Mudd is in Discovery, but from what we've seen in the trailers it's a far more sinister madman-type character than the campish conman in TOS). This show is just really really dark, both visually and tonally. Every character who advocates an attempt at diplomacy ends up loving dead. The first officer knocks out the Captain who overrules her, only for her to come back with a gun. The science officer recommends someone suicide-runs a shuttle craft into the Klingon ship, and the captain decides to mine a loving corpse instead. That's a war crime, btw. That's a literal war crime, today, right now, in 2017. That's not an optimistic future - that's not even an optimistic present. If this team were doing the old shows, Shran would be murdering prisoners, Rom would have escaped arrest for people smuggling because Odo half beat him to death in his cell and Farpoint would have ended with Q tricking the enterprise into murdering the Jellyfish for fun. You can do gritty space drama - BSG did it really well for 3 seasons before it disappeared up it's own arse, and I really like what I've seen so far of the Expanse - but....can't we have our fun camp sci-fi adventure show again? Surely there's a gap in the market for just one show that's not just angry space-arseholes in space?
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Sep 26, 2017 21:32
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They didn't die because they advocated diplomacy. They died because their cultural insensitivity and wilful ignorance meant that they didn't actually employ diplomacy and allow for the other culture's beliefs and perspective. They were told how to talk to the Klingons, and instead chose to only consider the Federation's terms. That was kind of the whole point. They never altered their position, which was inflammatory and offensive to the Klingons. It's what the Klingon gambit was predicated upon, that the insult would be repeated in front of the council members. Had they taken the Vulcan advice then the antagonist would have been made to look a fool.
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Sep 26, 2017 21:44
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Pastamania posted:That the words 'Jeffery Combs' aren't normally proceeded with the words 'Hollywood Megastar' is a goddamn crime. There's room within a series, and even within a single episode, for both camp and grimness. In the Pale Moonlight is both very dark and still very campy, for example. Discovery hasn't done that yet (I found some parts cringey, but not campy in the same way) but that doesn't mean it can't.
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Sep 26, 2017 22:15
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Arglebargle III posted:As a Trek fan, the thing I dislike about it most is how tired it is. Star Trek has done the spiky dark post 9/11 aliens thing before and both times it's been awful. Enterprise and Nemesis are low points in the franchise. Trek2009 wasn't a whole lot better and also featured spiky post 9/11 aliens. Beam over to the enemy ship at the end so our heroes can punch them, yadda yadda. It's boring and it's a misunderstanding of what popular Star Trek was about. 2009 received a fairly tepid response and Nemesis and Enterprise were rightly panned for their dark action movie take on Trek. That's not what the franchise is good at. Yeah we will probably never get a good ST series again. TNG and DS9 were products of their time, it's hard to imagine DS9 being produced today. DS9, like X-files, hit that sweet spot between monster of the week and serial arcs, it had both arc episodes and "filler" isolated ones, which let characters develop in an unhurried way. Today's TV has to have something dramatic happen every second. That's why the first 5 minutes of STD was an as-you-know infodump, they didn't want to spend time developing the characters because every minute without monster size ships epically blasting each other is wasted time. I would've liked to know more about that timid tall alien guy, or the daft punk robot, maybe give them a nice focused episode where they deal with a dumb problem so they can grow on you, and THEN put them in a long arc. There's no way that will ever happen again in the foreseeable future.
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Sep 26, 2017 22:16
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Why the gently caress would I want a back story episode for a second string character before the introduction of the main character and the establishing of the world in which the series takes place? What you are describing is the classically bad storytelling which leads to the vast majority of pilots, and especially Trek ones, being unrepresentative shite. It is a bad form of storytelling that came about because of the constraints under which programmes were pitched to networks and which now, for shows like this, is obsolete. And yeah, loving bravo "we''ll never get a good Trek show again" because by show you seem to mean time travel to the past. Excessive nostalgia is unhealthy. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Sep 26, 2017 |
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Sep 26, 2017 22:44
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I can't believe no one's said space orcs. Look at them, they're Uruks. The Federation is fighting some kind of futuristic Sauron and these "klingons" have the worst disguise ever.
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Sep 26, 2017 22:53
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Shibawanko posted:Yeah we will probably never get a good ST series again. TNG and DS9 were products of their time, it's hard to imagine DS9 being produced today. DS9, like X-files, hit that sweet spot between monster of the week and serial arcs, it had both arc episodes and "filler" isolated ones, which let characters develop in an unhurried way. Today's TV has to have something dramatic happen every second. That's why the first 5 minutes of STD was an as-you-know infodump, they didn't want to spend time developing the characters because every minute without monster size ships epically blasting each other is wasted time. I would've liked to know more about that timid tall alien guy, or the daft punk robot, maybe give them a nice focused episode where they deal with a dumb problem so they can grow on you, and THEN put them in a long arc. There's no way that will ever happen again in the foreseeable future. Yeah this is just a big problem with a lot of TV now, everything needs the drama and tension and movement turned up to 11 at all times with no moment to breathe. But even shows like Breaking Bad which was full of manufactured and idiocy-fueled-tension still managed to have some humour and heart here and there and even if you loved or hated a character you felt something about them pretty quickly. You had skinny pete going on about trek and babylon 5, just little fun character moments that gave the show time to breathe. Plus, as manufactured as the drama often was, it was well written and things mostly made sense. It's the same with The Expanse, it's gritty and dramatic and dark but outside of Holden the characters are interesting and even likeable, plus they stop to breathe and have a laugh here and there, or at least stop to digest and discuss. Discovery thinks to be a modern dark gritty prestige drama or whatever it needs to be 100% serialized and the core plot can never stop, things have to keep moving full speed ahead at all times. Don't worry about what a character would do or wasting time developing them, characters just exist to keep the plot and action moving. Only develop characters as a means of advancing the core plot, and the core plot just exists as a basic framework to hang drama and action on. Just move so fast and make everything so bright and shiny hopefully no one notices how terrible the writing is.
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Sep 26, 2017 23:01
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You know what else they didn't have back in the day when the other Trek shows started? A metastasised viewer base who were invested in hating them before they got off the ground.
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Sep 26, 2017 23:08
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:You know what else they didn't have back in the day when the other Trek shows started? A metastasised viewer base who were invested in hating them before they got off the ground. Well you're wrong there!
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Sep 26, 2017 23:09
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Baronjutter posted:Discovery thinks to be a modern dark gritty prestige drama or whatever it needs to be 100% serialized and the core plot can never stop, things have to keep moving full speed ahead at all times. Don't worry about what a character would do or wasting time developing them, characters just exist to keep the plot and action moving. Only develop characters as a means of advancing the core plot, and the core plot just exists as a basic framework to hang drama and action on. Just move so fast and make everything so bright and shiny hopefully no one notices how terrible the writing is. Yeah the Doctor Who Syndrome I call it. They don't have the budget nor the patience with their audience enough to slow it down. The way how it's papered over how they get back to Star Fleet command for a nice little military trial really sticks out.
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Sep 26, 2017 23:10
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Also kinda seems too early to condemn the entire show as grimdark when we're one (doublesized) episode in and former Trek episodes include 'the one where Kira travels into the past to find out her mother slept with Cardassian officials during their internment in prison camps in order to give her family better medical treatment and access to more rations during the warcrime filled Cardassian occupation of Bajor, whereupon Kira attempts to assassinate the official who has taken possession of her mother in such a way that her mother would also die. Kira finds this an acceptable punishment for a collaborator until she realizes her mother is doing this for her family.' Like, if that was the only episode you'd seen of Deep Space Nine, you'd think it was a horribly grimdark show, too! The first episode of Discovery is setting up the political/religious crisis inside the Klingon empire and has a lot of bad stuff happen, and all this is setting up stuff that we're not sure of yet, but this is... setting up the conflicts of the first season, probably, not the tone of the entire first season. More importantly, how did Michael rise to First Mate only 7 years after she got dropped off with the Federation by Sarek?
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Sep 26, 2017 23:11
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ewe2 posted:I can't believe no one's said space orcs. Look at them, they're Uruks. The Federation is fighting some kind of futuristic Sauron and these "klingons" have the worst disguise ever. I immediately said orcs to my wife. I think it's the lack of hair
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Sep 26, 2017 23:13
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I honestly think we're going to get some good old fashioned bottle episodes. I mean, they've already hinted there's going to be time loop and mirror universe episodes, so it seems they're at least thinking about not going full speed ahead plot explosion.
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Sep 26, 2017 23:14
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PetraCore posted:Also kinda seems too early to condemn the entire show as grimdark when we're one (doublesized) episode in and former Trek episodes include 'the one where Kira travels into the past to find out her mother slept with Cardassian officials during their internment in prison camps in order to give her family better medical treatment and access to more rations during the warcrime filled Cardassian occupation of Bajor, whereupon Kira attempts to assassinate the official who has taken possession of her mother in such a way that her mother would also die. Kira finds this an acceptable punishment for a collaborator until she realizes her mother is doing this for her family.' That also isn't the first episode. The first episode tends to be the one that sets the tone of the entire series, even if that tone has some variance. I mean, I don't think anyone is expecting lighthearted trek after this, even if there is a happy go lucky moment or two here or there, are you? Hell, just look at the preview that continues the same grimdark tone.
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Sep 26, 2017 23:16
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ewe2 posted:Yeah the Doctor Who Syndrome I call it. They don't have the budget nor the patience with their audience enough to slow it down. The way how it's papered over how they get back to Star Fleet command for a nice little military trial really sticks out. That's another huge problem with JJ-Trek and new Starwars, everything seems tiny because a sense of scale or time is boring man, keep things pumping, keep the action moving, next tense scene, next setpiece battle, next big dramatic twist. Make it like 24, make it all feel to be happening in real time without any breaks. They want to create this feeling of non-stop movement and action, its so intense the characters don't have any time to take a breath and neither does the viewer. Waiting a day for a reply from command, sitting down to discuss the situation, or taking a week to travel somewhere all break up this breakneck pacing. It's like how joggers have to jog in place while waiting at traffic lights, you gotta keep your heart rate up and consistently up. Shows like Discovery and movies like JJtrek treat the audience like joggers, you have to keep their heart rate consistently elevated at all times or you're not doing it right. I don't think this sort of pacing is enjoyable, and I think it's generally used to hope no one has time to stop and digest how bad everything is.
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Sep 26, 2017 23:19
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Half the people in the thread are evaluating the TV show based on the pilot. The other half are evaluating the pilot to decide whether it's Star Trek or something else with Star Trek wallpaper pasted over it to try to appeal to a built-in fanbase.
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Sep 26, 2017 23:19
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Caros posted:That also isn't the first episode. The first episode tends to be the one that sets the tone of the entire series, even if that tone has some variance. I mean, I don't think anyone is expecting lighthearted trek after this, even if there is a happy go lucky moment or two here or there, are you? Hell, just look at the preview that continues the same grimdark tone. I think there will be lighthearted moments and stand-alone episodes after this, yes.
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Sep 26, 2017 23:20
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Beachcomber posted:Half the people in the thread are evaluating the TV show based on the pilot. 
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Sep 26, 2017 23:22
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Baronjutter posted:Things. Is this why I enjoy movies in the theatre but feel no real desire to watch them ever again?
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Sep 26, 2017 23:23
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That said I do hope the pacing isn't all action all the time. I just think it's too early to unilaterally declare that just because the pilot was action-packed, that that's the show from now on.
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Sep 26, 2017 23:25
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I read this tiny article and their complaint is that the charm and chemistry of the original crew can never be replicated. No one here is saying that. It's all about tone and plot and continuity. Edit: and the continuity is just nitpicking. If the show does well every problem will be no-prized out of existence Beachcomber fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Sep 26, 2017 |
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Sep 26, 2017 23:31
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The really great thing here is that someone apparently felt Geordi was the closest analog in the TNG crew to Spock 
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Sep 26, 2017 23:37
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Ok, now respond to me again when you actually read my posts. Quidam Viator posted:Well, isn't the Shenzhou just an on-ramp into the show? I mean, they DID light Saru and Michael and the captain, because they were important to the plot. The rest of those fuckers are dead. Why light them up and get you attached to them? They have a whole, real bridge crew they want you to love, probably not mourning over daft-punk-face, right? Oh, i totally get the idea that they're not important, but it is annoying to me personally that half of the scenes are pitch black. It's just ugly. JJTrek, for all it's faults, didn't have this problem at all, and like i said, i am completely fine with how it looked. I am not at this moment complaining about the visual elements themselves, just the lighting.
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Sep 26, 2017 23:43
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I can't get over frakes' hair
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Sep 26, 2017 23:56
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I'd just like to point out that the Klingons' skepticism of the humans' catchphrase is entirely justified: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCARADb9asE&t=98s
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Sep 27, 2017 00:03
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Show sucks. Writing sucks. Visuals are alright, but the camera work is either too slanted or the cuts are too frenetic to enjoy the scenery. Most of the actors suck, but I'm not sure if it is a lack of talent or the garbage they were given to work with. Would have been better served as a sequel. CBS All Access strategy is poo poo. People talking about this as some kind of bold, gritty re-imagining of the series have clearly never seen DS9. I'll pirate the rest, and continue to enjoy The Expanse instead.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:04
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Yeah, the Federation was never going to just start shooting Klingon ships wherever they saw them, but I think the basic argument that Klingon diplomacy works a different way than Vulcan or human diplomacy is a valid one, and maybe if Michael had taken the time to pull an argument together and present it calmly and been willing to talk about alternate methods of respecting Klingon culture instead of attempting diplomatic gestures that Klingons see as insincere and insulting things would have been different. Too bad about that deep emotional trauma that... probably wasn't addressed very well by the Vulcans?
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Sep 27, 2017 00:07
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Caros posted:That also isn't the first episode. The first episode tends to be the one that sets the tone of the entire series, even if that tone has some variance. I mean, I don't think anyone is expecting lighthearted trek after this, even if there is a happy go lucky moment or two here or there, are you? Hell, just look at the preview that continues the same grimdark tone. I couldn't agree more. They don't have to dish out all the themes of the show in condensed form like it's classic literature, but setting the tone is important. Some people in this thread are talking about STD like they're willing to wait a few seasons to see if it gets better. Personally, I'm not that optimistic. If it's not better by next week, I'll
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Sep 27, 2017 00:09
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Well, I certainly think the All Access thing means there's less validity to going 'wait and see', because the producers want you to have to pay to watch each episode, meaning the show gets less benefit of the doubt. And that's... kind of their fault!
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Sep 27, 2017 00:15
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PetraCore posted:Well, I certainly think the All Access thing means there's less validity to going 'wait and see', because the producers want you to have to pay to watch each episode, meaning the show gets less benefit of the doubt. And that's... kind of their fault! That's not really an issue for me, since I'm watching STD on Netflix. Still, there are so many good shows out there these days, why should people bother watching something mediocre.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:24
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I did watch Voyager, and that is worse than this, so i guess i can give STD one more chance.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:27
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Frionnel posted:I did watch Voyager, and that is worse than this, so i guess i can give STD one more chance. Here is how I watched Voyager: I compiled a list consisting of a bunch of top tens, watched the episodes in chronological order, and then marvelled at all the insane bullshit they kept referencing. That show is two solid seasons worth of decent episodes. The only real deal breaker is that the captain is loving insane, and will happily choose the most violent option, even in the good episodes. (This aspect also got slightly more entertaining after a while.)
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Sep 27, 2017 00:37
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:They didn't die because they advocated diplomacy. They died because their cultural insensitivity and wilful ignorance meant that they didn't actually employ diplomacy and allow for the other culture's beliefs and perspective. They were told how to talk to the Klingons, and instead chose to only consider the Federation's terms. Woah hold on, first, Sarek didn't say "this is what you guys should do," as a matter of fact he explicitly said that it might not necessarily apply to their situation and that she needed to be really careful with how she used that information. Also, if I remember right, Burnham basically presented it as "we need to just start attacking every Klingon ship we see until they back off and
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Sep 27, 2017 00:50
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Woah hold on, first, Sarek didn't say "this is what you guys should do," as a matter of fact he explicitly said that it might not necessarily apply to their situation and that she needed to be really careful with how she used that information. Yeah Burnham wasn't right. The problem is everyone on the Federation side including Burnham were severely uninformed of what was actually going on on the Klingon side, but there's not really a way they could have been informed, either. I'm wondering if this episode is going to be basically the dark point of the season and stuff after this will work to show her why she was wrong?
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Sep 27, 2017 01:06
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Ensign Daft Punk is apparently called Lieutenant Jira Narwani and there's information about her in some Star Trek book that came out today.
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Sep 27, 2017 01:11
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Levar Burton: The new spock! Lmao, Geordi? skasion posted:The really great thing here is that someone apparently felt Geordi was the closest analog in the TNG crew to Spock gently caress beaten
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Sep 27, 2017 01:12
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Kibayasu posted:I'm going to take this post at face value and respond seriously. They're singing in these scenes. KLING-ON! DIC-TION! IS! SOME-WHAT! KIRK-LIKE!
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Sep 27, 2017 01:23
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Zaphod42 posted:Levar Burton: The new spock! It makes sense, Geordi gets laid about once every seven years.
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Sep 27, 2017 01:24
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AndyElusive posted:Oh poo poo that was supposed to be a fuckin bat'leth? the thing that literally looks like a batleth is a batleth, yes
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Sep 27, 2017 01:29
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