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Strom Cuzewon posted:I didn't get the impression they were going for a 24-style TOUGH MEN MAKING TOUGH CHOICES story. Yeah there was a load of militaristic dick waving, and the end result was an unmitigated disaster for both sides. I think the pilot is very much supposed to be what happens when the Federation forgets its the Federation. As if a brain damaged man mumbling "this isn't who we really are" before getting violently spaced wasn't enough of a clue. 
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Sep 27, 2017 15:51
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Gammatron 64 posted:I think something like 80% of the people who aren't happy with this show would probably enjoy it if it wasn't called Star Trek and was it's own thing. But it claims to be Star Trek, so I can't help but feel really disappointed with it. I think if this were a B5 reboot about first contact with the Minbari, I'd probably have been super pleased with it. I think I remember someone calling one of the Klingons "warrior caste."
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Sep 27, 2017 15:53
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I didn't get the impression they were going for a 24-style TOUGH MEN MAKING TOUGH CHOICES story. Yeah there was a load of militaristic dick waving, and the end result was an unmitigated disaster for both sides. I think the pilot is very much supposed to be what happens when the Federation forgets its the Federation. As if a brain damaged man mumbling "this isn't who we really are" before getting violently spaced wasn't enough of a clue. I think the show isn't going to go "federation forgets to federation", I think it wants to go DS9 and show them as ignorant to their own arrogance, but the pilot set that part up so ambiguously it's hard to say. Tkuvma or whatever keeps specifically calling the "we come in peace" line a lie, which might mean there's a legitimate beef/backstory there that the federation is conveniently forgetting about or unaware of. That or it's bad writing, which at this point is legitimately hard to determine. I'd love if this series seriously explored the concept of the federation just being so far up its own rear end with being the good guys that they don't stop to consider that maybe they aren't, but who knows, could just be like that other poster said and it's a full season of "yeah you'd shoot bin Laden too"
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Sep 27, 2017 15:55
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Their heads and super advanced ships are right for it.
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Sep 27, 2017 15:56
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albany academy posted:I think the show isn't going to go "federation forgets to federation", I think it wants to go DS9 and show them as ignorant to their own arrogance, but the pilot set that part up so ambiguously it's hard to say. Tkuvma or whatever keeps specifically calling the "we come in peace" line a lie, which might mean there's a legitimate beef/backstory there that the federation is conveniently forgetting about or unaware of. That or it's bad writing, which at this point is legitimately hard to determine. I'd love if this series seriously explored the concept of the federation just being so far up its own rear end with being the good guys that they don't stop to consider that maybe they aren't, but who knows, could just be like that other poster said and it's a full season of "yeah you'd shoot bin Laden too" "We come in peace" is a lie, because while the Federation might not want a war, they really want to disrupt the way you live, to join their club and be like them. The Klingon old guard are afraid of having their culture stolen from them without a shot even being fired.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:05
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albany academy posted:I think the show isn't going to go "federation forgets to federation", I think it wants to go DS9 and show them as ignorant to their own arrogance, but the pilot set that part up so ambiguously it's hard to say. Tkuvma or whatever keeps specifically calling the "we come in peace" line a lie, which might mean there's a legitimate beef/backstory there that the federation is conveniently forgetting about or unaware of. That or it's bad writing, which at this point is legitimately hard to determine. I'd love if this series seriously explored the concept of the federation just being so far up its own rear end with being the good guys that they don't stop to consider that maybe they aren't, but who knows, could just be like that other poster said and it's a full season of "yeah you'd shoot bin Laden too" To me it seemed like a similar beef as the villain in Beyond, or Quark and Garak's root beer conversation in DS9, that the Federation is a melting pot that destroys distinct cultures, analogous to the Borg.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:05
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It is a lie though, we've seen the 24th century with Klingons as Federation allies, if anything they are less human in behavior and more traditional than ever.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:06
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albany academy posted:I think the show isn't going to go "federation forgets to federation", I think it wants to go DS9 and show them as ignorant to their own arrogance, but the pilot set that part up so ambiguously it's hard to say. Tkuvma or whatever keeps specifically calling the "we come in peace" line a lie, which might mean there's a legitimate beef/backstory there that the federation is conveniently forgetting about or unaware of. That or it's bad writing, which at this point is legitimately hard to determine. I'd love if this series seriously explored the concept of the federation just being so far up its own rear end with being the good guys that they don't stop to consider that maybe they aren't, but who knows, could just be like that other poster said and it's a full season of "yeah you'd shoot bin Laden too" There was more nuance to it than saying that We Come In Peace is followed by violence. There is some xenophobia and a little bit of insidious root beer whereby they feel they will be conquered or at least softened and altered by "peaceful" interactions with the Federation. They will no longer be Real Klingons if the multiculturalists force them to tolerate
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Sep 27, 2017 16:08
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Firebert posted:"We come in peace" is a lie, because while the Federation might not want a war, they really want to disrupt the way you live, to join their club and be like them. The Klingon old guard are afraid of having their culture stolen from them without a shot even being fired. What would a Federation that didn't want to disrupt the way others lived look like?
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Sep 27, 2017 16:09
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Firebert posted:"We come in peace" is a lie, because while the Federation might not want a war, they really want to disrupt the way you live, to join their club and be like them. The Klingon old guard are afraid of having their culture stolen from them without a shot even being fired. I'm pretty sure literal imperialists don't have moral standing to complain about cultural imperialism. Farmer Crack-rear end posted:What would a Federation that didn't want to disrupt the way others lived look like? If only they had some sort of... directive...
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Sep 27, 2017 16:10
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:What would a Federation that didn't want to disrupt the way others lived look like? About six planets off in a corner of the Alpha Quadrant.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:11
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Firebert posted:"We come in peace" is a lie, because while the Federation might not want a war, they really want to disrupt the way you live, to join their club and be like them. The Klingon old guard are afraid of having their culture stolen from them without a shot even being fired. 
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Sep 27, 2017 16:12
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:What would a Federation that didn't want to disrupt the way others lived look like? Sort of like it already does. They have rules for membership but they also don't force membership. Quite the contrary in fact it seems pretty difficult to become a member planet. They don't go into Klingon space looking to institute regime change just because they have billions of slaves etc
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Sep 27, 2017 16:13
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mllaneza posted:About six planets off in a corner of the Alpha Quadrant. The sarcastic answer that came to my mind was "a shithole that nobody wanted to join in the first place", but I feel like just being a successful interstellar civilization that others want to join is a ludicrous standard for "wanting to disrupt the way others live".
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Sep 27, 2017 16:14
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The Bloop posted:Sort of like it already does. They have rules for membership but they also don't force membership. Quite the contrary in fact it seems pretty difficult to become a member planet. I'm inclined to agree, myself.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:15
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I want my next Star Trek to be Disney Channel original series called House of Mogh about the hijinks Alexander's son gets up to in the space hotel Alexander owns with Nog. Harry Kim is the concierge. Robert Picardo is every maid.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:20
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Al Borland Corp. posted:I want my next Star Trek to be Disney Channel original series called House of Mogh about the hijinks Alexander's son gets up to in the space hotel Alexander owns with Nog. Harry Kim is the concierge. Robert Picardo is every maid. In one episode they show the sister location on Selbar III and Andy Dick is the maid.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:24
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Yeah I get all that, it was more the way tkuvma delivered the line and focused on it made me think there was something specific that happened. Basically if "we come in peace" called back to a real Klingon encounter that they're still sore about, it would make more sense that the council would listen to him and go all Lee Ving, as opposed to just saying "yeah technically what they're saying is untrue." That's a harder sell imo.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:28
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Lexy and Gluon learn an important lesson about confiding in adults when the hotel is visited by the Talaxian ambassador
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Sep 27, 2017 16:29
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Al Borland Corp. posted:Lexy and Gluon learn an important lesson about confiding in adults when the hotel is visited by the Talaxian ambassador The Grand Nagus pays a surprise visit but a Tellarite dignitary already has the Emperor's Suite. A delicate situation soon becomes raucous.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:57
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Lexy reprograms a hologram to look like his crush so he can practice asking her out, but the hologram replaces all of the hotels holostaff, just as his crush checks in!
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Sep 27, 2017 17:03
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Angry Salami posted:I'm pretty sure literal imperialists don't have moral standing to complain about cultural imperialism. The Klingons in the Discovery premiere aren't depicted as imperialists at this stage. They are a bunch of scattered, feudal houses and what we're being shown is how T'Kumva (re)imperializes them. I did like how their fear of the Federation's philosophy basically echoes real-life fears among rightists and Islamic extremists of "globalization." This strikes me as the sort of allegory Fuller might have been trying to introduce.
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Sep 27, 2017 17:11
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I noticed on reddit that whenever someone says that the tone of the series is all wrong, has a lot of moral ambiguity and it feels like military sci-fi, someone is always like "Well, have you not seen DS9? It's all about war and Sisko does a lot of really lovely things in it too." I mean, I have. I really like the show a lot. But... I dunno man, I can't help but feel like DS9 is different than Discovery and saying they're the same is kind of a disingenuous argument. Yes. it tackled a LOT of dark subject matter, but it did it in a way that it still felt like Star Trek. I mean, Trek had episodes on nasty issues like war and racism since the beginning. Am I on to something here, or am I just imagining it? I dunno, I'm having trouble putting it into words. It goes into dark places but still manages to keep that general sense of optimism and hopefulness. I don't think these shows are the same thing. On another note, this is kind of unrelated to that, but one thing I noticed about STD is that the aesthetics of the show are really, really weird. The designs are one thing, but the thing that I think distracts me the most is the cinematography. It kinda feels like... overkill. It's kind of excessive. There's dutch angles everywhere, lots of lens flares, sudden flashbacks for even minor characters... it's really strange seeing this. They definitely spared no expense and it feels more like a movie than a TV show, that's for sure. Is this necessarily a bad thing? No, it's just loving weird to see all this in Star Trek, that's all. The old Star Trek shows might have actually benefited from their limited budgets. For example, "The Measure of a Man" is one of the very best TNG episodes and it has no special effects in it at all and is basically a stage play. Limitation breeds creativity. Without constraints on budget or technology it's very easy to go overboard.
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Sep 27, 2017 17:11
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Gammatron 64 posted:I noticed on reddit that whenever someone says that the tone of the series is all wrong, has a lot of moral ambiguity and it feels like military sci-fi, someone is always like "Well, have you not seen DS9? It's all about war and Sisko does a lot of really lovely things in it too." At the start of DS9, the Federation are still the heroes, trying to help put a civilization back together after a brutal occupation. They didn't come out of the gate trying to take the Federation down a few pegs. That developed over time, and only after we saw our heroes face multiple difficult tests. EDIT: Also, those episodes about war and racism you mentioned usually used other races as the stand-ins for humanity's ugliness, with the Federation looking in from the outside and setting a moral standard. We occasionally got shown humanity succumbing to these exceptions, but when we did it was usually a big deal and we were still shown trying to set a path out of these messes. Drink-Mix Man fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 17:18
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The "tone" really wasn't dark in most of DS9, even when the subject matter was.
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Sep 27, 2017 17:21
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It's like all of Discovery is set on the jaunty-angled gloomy Empok Nor
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Sep 27, 2017 17:22
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You're describing one of the reasons why I'm so disgusted by many Reddit Trek fans, and why I much prefer talking Trek with you guys: they're so determined to like Discovery, because it's the first Star Trek on TV in over a decade, that they're swallowing everything the show does - no matter how dumb it is - and actively down voting people who express anything less than adoration for the show. /r/startrek is becoming (or has become) toxic. Discovery is giving me a newfound respect for DS9. I've resented it somewhat, because I think that its popularity sometimes comes at the expense of older series, like the original. But DS9 is Star Trek doing dark right: Sisko and his crew bend Starfleet Values in order to fight against the Dominion and the Maquis. Sometimes they go too far, but reluctantly. "In The Pale Moonlight" is a great example of that. Discovery looks like it's doing dark and gritty in an effort to be more in the vein of shows like BSG. I love BSG, but I don't want Star Trek to be BSG.
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Sep 27, 2017 17:25
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It really does seem like the whole maybe everything except three cast members is going to change on the first non-pilot episode. This could include the tone of the show etc. We can then discuss if it was good for the pilot to be so different, but I'm still waiting to see the proper show for a few episodes, like with the Discovery actually on the show, before I pass too much judgement.
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Sep 27, 2017 17:29
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And because of the streaming scheme, a lot of Americans can't give it that luxury
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Sep 27, 2017 17:37
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I'm wondering if part of the impatience with STD is because of all access, because I think you're right. We're going to move to the actual Discovery, and the regular cast and who knows what you'll get thematically and tonally. And I think if the whole show was on broadcast tv, prople would be more patient to see how the show plays out. But because this was the only episode not paywalled, it became an advertisement for the show and for all access. It's basically CBS saying, "Hey, do you like what you're seeing? Want to see more? Subscribe to All Access!". So for a lot of people, this first episode is en as a typical episode, and that affects people's expectations of the show.
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Sep 27, 2017 17:49
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:
See, I'm very torn by this myself. I love DS9, but there is no doubt that it is a radical departure from TNG. I would say the overarching theme of TNG isn't even "optimism" so much, as it is about truly living up to your principles. Picard's speech in The Drumhead is amazing because it clearly warns about what happens when you start to compromise on your values. Time and time again Picard made decisions based on principles knowing that the consequence could be dire (see I Borg, for example). By contrast, in The Pale Moonlight, we have Sisko compromising his values for what he considers the greater good. Given the stakes and how things could have gone catastrophically bad if the plan failed, Sisko's actions aren't even objectively "worth it" (without the benefit of hindsight). But he is rewarded for his actions and never has face repercussions. Picard would have 100% handled that episode differently and it speaks entirely to the different tones of the series. In my personal opinion, there has never been a show that has been more principled than TNG, and because of my age when i watched the show for the first time i think it had a significant impact on my perspective as ive grown up. I think that is the type of show the world needs right now.
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Sep 27, 2017 17:53
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Taking two entire episodes to get to the point where the actual premise of the rest of the show kicks off is a very questionable decision regardless of the All Access nonsense (though that certainly doesn't help). How many people would have kept watching Lost if they didn't crash on the island until the third episode?
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Sep 27, 2017 17:54
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:You're describing one of the reasons why I'm so disgusted by many Reddit Trek fans, and why I much prefer talking Trek with you guys: they're so determined to like Discovery, because it's the first Star Trek on TV in over a decade, that they're swallowing everything the show does - no matter how dumb it is - and actively down voting people who express anything less than adoration for the show. /r/startrek is becoming (or has become) toxic. Yeah. I wasn't even really making GBS threads on the show, I was just like "hey you know it's pretty decent, it just doesn't feel like Star Trek because the tone is all wrong and it feels more like BSG or Mass Effect" and that got immediately downvoted into oblivion and enraged fanboys felt the need to flame me lol Drink-Mix Man posted:At the start of DS9, the Federation are still the heroes, trying to help put a civilization back together after a brutal occupation. They didn't come out of the gate trying to take the Federation down a few pegs. That developed over time, and only after we saw our heroes face multiple difficult tests. I mean granted, Sisko does really do some lovely stuff. Like making a whole planet full of civilians uninhabitable out of spite. But that isn't your first impression of the character and it took him 6 seasons to get there.
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Sep 27, 2017 18:02
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:You're describing one of the reasons why I'm so disgusted by many Reddit Trek fans, and why I much prefer talking Trek with you guys: they're so determined to like Discovery, because it's the first Star Trek on TV in over a decade, that they're swallowing everything the show does - no matter how dumb it is - and actively down voting people who express anything less than adoration for the show. /r/startrek is becoming (or has become) toxic. r/startrek is as toxic as TV IV about the show.
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Sep 27, 2017 18:04
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Al Borland Corp. posted:
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Sep 27, 2017 18:04
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Thom12255 posted:r/startrek is as toxic as TV IV about the show. The most negative poo poo I've seen anywhere about all this are value judgments about people who didn't like the show coming from people that did. The TVIV thread is fine.
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Sep 27, 2017 18:12
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Thom12255 posted:r/ is toxic
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Sep 27, 2017 18:14
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skasion posted:Taking two entire episodes to get to the point where the actual premise of the rest of the show kicks off is a very questionable decision regardless of the All Access nonsense (though that certainly doesn't help). How many people would have kept watching Lost if they didn't crash on the island until the third episode? Yeah this idea that the show is going to suddenly become something different seems really bizarre. If it does, that doesn't speak well of anything. And frankly the preview for the rest of the season is telling you it's not changing. Harry Mudd is now some sort of populist-anarchist. The show is what it is.
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Sep 27, 2017 18:14
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Bucswabe posted:See, I'm very torn by this myself. I love DS9, but there is no doubt that it is a radical departure from TNG. I would say the overarching theme of TNG isn't even "optimism" so much, as it is about truly living up to your principles. Picard's speech in The Drumhead is amazing because it clearly warns about what happens when you start to compromise on your values. Time and time again Picard made decisions based on principles knowing that the consequence could be dire (see I Borg, for example). Yes yes yes, oh my God, yes. This. The Drumhead is one of my favorite TNG episodes and really defines Picard as a character. That episode probably had a huge effect on me growing up. This is going to make a ton of people roll their eyes, but my moral compass is probably influenced by Captain Picard. I feel there's a serious lack of things like this today. And it kind of shows because we have almost a whole generation of kids who think the ends justify the means. I vehemently disagree with that sentiment because it's what's led people to commit horrible atrocities throughout history. If you have a moral high ground, don't sacrifice it. Ever. If others have done horrible things, that doesn't give you the right to do the same. Always aim to be the better man\woman\whatever.
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Sep 27, 2017 18:15
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How do you get more populist than generous and automated state basic income lol
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Sep 27, 2017 18:17
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