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Zaphod42 posted:And it ends with them... doing it anyways, even though the humans were outraged the whole time and they gave the big speech about how women matter and the Moklan bible was written by a woman. Which is great in a south park "gently caress the moral of the story" way I guess, like lots of goons cheered, but I dunno you've gotta kinda have some "gently caress political correctness" attitude to really get off on that, and there's too many lovely portrayals of LGBT people right now, sorry but you don't really need that. Yes. That was the point The point of the show isn't that the crew of the Orville were desperately out of their depth, do poo poo that is actively unhelpful, but they tried anyway. More importantly they tried and failed and were devastated afterwards. And in the face of that they still have to keep going on. They basically lucked into a way to convince Bortus of their way of things. And the trial was a year one procedural law student going up against the supreme court, there was basically no way that she could win until they lucked into the existence of the female poet. That was their best argument and the Moclans still decided to ignore it because their culture is too heavily entrenched in their literally toxic masculinity. Bortus even said before the trial that there was almost no chance that they would succeed, but the fact that they tried would be recorded in public record and the next time a female is born their parents would know that they weren't alone. And doing that was worth any amount of disgrace to him. Like seriously I think that either TNG or DS9 literally did the "have a female beat the klingon to prove that they're just as strong as a man." thing. The boxing match was a pretty good lampshade on the fact that it wouldn't work in the real world. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 04:35
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Zaphod, do you often feel that homosexual relationships and feminism are supposed to be laughed at? Edit: You're supposed to take Bortus and Klyyden's relationship seriously and you're supposed to agree with the feminism. That you think these must be weird, failed jokes suggests deeper issues (or that perhaps didn't watch the episode) Accretionist fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 04:36
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Zaphod42 posted:And it ends with them... doing it anyways, even though the humans were outraged the whole time and they gave the big speech about how women matter and the Moklan bible was written by a woman. Which is great in a south park "gently caress the moral of the story" way I guess, like lots of goons cheered, but I dunno you've gotta kinda have some "gently caress political correctness" attitude to really get off on that, and there's too many lovely portrayals of LGBT people right now, sorry but you don't really need that. Nobody is getting off on that. Throughout the episode, the human point of view, that women are equal to men and that sex/gender should not be imposed on anyone is painted as the right one and that is good! But the ending was also very fitting. This one crew, despite their best efforts, could not change the entirety of Moclan culture after one trial. But they have contributed and set a precedent. I know there are dozens of Star Trek episodes where our heroes illuminate the barbaric aliens, but sometimes it's not that easy. Zaphod42 posted:And the whole tough girl boxes guy to show girls can be tough... its all just like really old fashioned and out of touch. This i completely agree with, everything involving Alara in this episode was cringe-worthy. Not only was the approach out of touch, but using an alien proves nothing anyway. It's like making a point about human biology using a squirrel. Frionnel fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 04:39
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Accretionist posted:Zaphod, do you often feel that homosexual relationships and feminism are supposed to be laughed at? Oh gently caress off. Frionnel posted:This i completely agree with, everything involving Alara in this episode was cringe-worthy. Not only was the approach out of touch, but using an alien proves nothing anyway. It's like making a point about human biology using a squirrel. Thankyou, jesus.
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Sep 28, 2017 04:42
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Frionnel posted:This i completely agree with, everything involving Alara in this episode was cringe-worthy. I edited it into my post above but I think that this was an attempted lampshade on the fact that they had Dax fight more than a few Klingons in her day to prove that she's just as macho as them. And the fact that trying to beat gender equality into someone in the real world is an incredibly misguided idea.
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Sep 28, 2017 04:42
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Frionnel posted:Nobody is getting off on that. I do like how the lawyer guy brought up how dumb the Alara comparison was, her super strength is something her whole species has it really smelt of the whole "a woman who can punch hard like a boy = feminist"
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Sep 28, 2017 04:43
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The good guys don't have to win for them to be the good guys, Mr. Beeblebrox.
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Sep 28, 2017 04:43
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The episode of TNG where riker's non-gendered girlfriend gets sent to brainwashing camp to ungender her was clearly saying gays should all be brainwashed and erased because that's the thing that happened in the episode despite the human's attempts to convince them otherwise.
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Sep 28, 2017 04:45
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r.y.f.s.o. posted:The good guys don't have to win for them to be the good guys, Mr. Beeblebrox. That's certainly true, and depiction isn't the same thing as condoning. But I think it was still just really ham-fisted and really failed to establish any real theme. It was just an awkward boring hour of television. Ending it with "hah, we subverted your expected payoff!" just feels like a lazy copout on a lazily written episode. It didn't feel like people really trying to say something about something they deeply cared about. If they were trying to do something progressive they failed, and if they were trying to do something funny they failed. That's my point.
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Sep 28, 2017 04:45
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I'm starting to think that maybe trying to explain "About A Girl" to people who completely missed the point is pointless. Also I am tired of people intentionally choosing to interpret movies or TV shows incorrectly to make them about their personal pet causes. Death of the author and all that but loving hell I'm done with people ignoring text in favor of some imagined subtext that exists only in their head or, even better, complaining that the way the tv show or movie handled said issue was bad WHEN IT WAS NEVER ABOUT IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. asecondduck fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 04:46
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I like that the guy with trollsihly simplistic objections is getting people to explain the themes of the episode in interesting ways. Thanks obnoxious rabblerouser guy for indirectly causing some good posts. One idea that's come up that I think is kind of interesting is that the gender stuff wasn't even the chief conflict. I think it was the one the writers were most concerned with, but they story as presented had cultural differences as the most compelling conflict. Like, what do you do when people of another culture have morally objectionable beliefs/practices? That idea wasn't too deeply explored, even though it was central to the episode. Some nasty issues were avoided by presenting the two cultures as fairly equal. The humans weren't in a position to impose anything on the Moclans, which would have been uncomfortable. It's an interesting and difficult issue. It's utterly unresolved by this episode (how could it be?) but I thought it was really interesting to see people grappling with the issue.
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Sep 28, 2017 04:50
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...Have you guys never encountered Zaphod42 before?
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Sep 28, 2017 04:56
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Snak posted:...Have you guys never encountered Zaphod42 before? Yeah, he does this all the time.
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Sep 28, 2017 04:58
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socialsecurity posted:I do like how the lawyer guy brought up how dumb the Alara comparison was, her super strength is something her whole species has it really smelt of the whole "a woman who can punch hard like a boy = feminist" Kurieg posted:I edited it into my post above but I think that this was an attempted lampshade on the fact that they had Dax fight more than a few Klingons in her day to prove that she's just as macho as them. And the fact that trying to beat gender equality into someone in the real world is an incredibly misguided idea. This might be it, but it requires Seth and co to be completely self aware about what they're writing, which i'm still not convinced of. Who knows, i could very well be in the wrong. Also, i think it is better that the good guys didn't win in this episode, because fighting racism/sexism/genderism is hard work that takes decades, centuries. Doesn't matter that you're 100% factually right, some people will still double down on their bigotry because it is just too entrenched.. It would be too simplistic if the person with almost zero experience with law practice and the poet succeeded and i like that this episode was above that. To bring a Trek example: Quark never stopped being mysoginistic even after seven seasons of living with hyu-mons and his mom directing sweeping changes on his home planet.
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Sep 28, 2017 04:59
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Frionnel posted:This might be it, but it requires Seth and co to be completely self aware about what they're writing, which i'm still not convinced of. Who knows, i could very well be in the wrong. That's exactly where I'm at. Maybe this is all just a parody of old star trek times values but I feel like it'd come across more genuine if that was the case and I really don't see Seth as being that self-aware. Maybe its all the rubber foreheads throwing me off or something but I dunno, it felt ridiculously ham-fisted and I know others have said the same. (But yeah, write me off as not having seen the episode and just here to troll toxic stuff or something) Frionnel posted:Also, i think it is better that the good guys didn't win in this episode, because fighting racism/sexism/genderism is hard work that takes decades, centuries. Doesn't matter that you're 100% factually right, some people will still double down on their bigotry because it is just too entrenched.. It would be too simplistic if the person with almost zero experience with law practice and the poet succeeded and i like that this episode was above that. To bring a Trek example: Quark never stopped being mysoginistic even after seven seasons of living with hyu-mons and his mom directing sweeping changes on his home planet. That's true, but its diminished when all of this neatly fits within an episodic structure and everything will basically stop mattering after this week. I guess hopefully we'll return and have a "About A Girl Pt 2" or something, Trek did have serials within the episodic structure, but I don't really see that in the cards.
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Sep 28, 2017 05:04
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Kurieg posted:Well, sort of, they have mammalian X chromosomes, but that's all they have, as in both males and females have a single X chromosome and we have no idea what sex determination system they use. Also it's a vole. There's a shrew that uses X0 determination (XX is female, X alone is male). Nice thanks! I hope your coffee company is doing well.
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Sep 28, 2017 05:12
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Kurieg posted:Bortus is angry with Klyden not because he "lied" about being male, but that he felt that he needed to hide the truth of his past once he discovered it. This was a good swerve, by the way, because I expected Bortus to make the former point and was wincing in preparation for the distaste of the "surprise trans" issue. So it was nice when it turned out he was mad about the latter point.
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Sep 28, 2017 05:16
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CPColin posted:This was a good swerve, by the way, because I expected Bortus to make the former point and was wincing in preparation for the distaste of the "surprise trans" issue. So it was nice when it turned out he was mad about the latter point. See it still felt muddy to me, because its not really fair to demand that someone come out sooner about some personal detail of their lives. Its still wrong to say somebody lied just because they didn't share something very personal the instant they found out. People need time to process or cope sometimes. That's not the same thing as lying to your partner or intentionally keeping some secret that you know would upset them. I guess I see your take on it too but it feels like you're giving them way too much credit.
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Sep 28, 2017 05:19
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Arglebargle III posted:Nice thanks! I hope your coffee company is doing well. loving  Personally, I thought episode three followed the "normal chumps in space trying to be the good guys but not always winning" theme pretty well. And I thought the Rudolph reaction was loving hysterical, I thought Bortus was going to bitch them out for such an obvious ploy at first but the actor played it perfectly straight, I loved it.
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Sep 28, 2017 05:21
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What exactly do you expect from a guy whose prior work consists of roughly equal parts anatomy jokes and pop culture gags? Snak posted:...Have you guys never encountered Zaphod42 before? Cojawfee posted:Yeah, he does this all the time. Do what?
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Sep 28, 2017 05:23
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Zaphod42 posted:Oh gently caress off. When you see two men in a relationship you get confused and wonder where the punchline is
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Sep 28, 2017 05:25
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Zaphod42 posted:I guess I see your take on it too but it feels like you're giving them way too much credit. I think you're still being influenced by your preconceptions of this as a Seth MacFarlane show, and that's what's preventing you from seeing it the way some of the rest of us do.
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Sep 28, 2017 05:30
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Zaphod42 posted:I guess I see your take on it too but it feels like you're giving them way too much credit. Fair enough. I feel like I'm giving them an appropriate amount of credit, which is convenient for me, because it let me enjoy the episode a whole lot!
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Sep 28, 2017 05:31
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It's one thing to call the attempt at storytelling blunt and un-subtle, and that's perfectly valid, Macfarlane is not and will never be Stanley Kubrick,. It's another to question the motives and heart of the story, and to misread the actual point and find offense in the misreading. Zaphod, do you get that the point of the episode was to grapple with the problems of cultural relativity, of imposing human values on other species, no matter how abhorrent we might find them? The gender thing was a device, an admittedly blunt and un-subtle one, but it wasn't the issue at the heart of the story. If it was a blue baby instead of brown, the thrust of the story would be identical, but it wouldn't prompt an emotional response from the human viewers quite the same way. Maybe the writers intended to prompt thought and discussion about both, but nowhere in the story did I get the impression that there was any moral uncertainty about gender / sex reassignment or gay relationships.
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Sep 28, 2017 05:54
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Seeing the scene of two guys talking about their marriage and thinking it was supposed to be a goof reminds me of the early Family Guy cutaway where Peter is seeing Philadelphia and he goes "Alright, Tom Hanks! Funniest man in America! Get a load of this, everything he says is a gag!" "I have aids." "Haha!"
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Sep 28, 2017 06:04
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Zaphod42 posted:Oh gently caress off. dude i cut you WAY more slack than pretty much every other goon on these forums and i am telling you, you seriously need to learn to admit when you're wrong because you are very wrong about this, like just on a basic fundamental objective level. this episode was not about transgender people. at all. not even a little bit. it was more about state vs. individual rights, cultural policing, etc etc. nothing to do with trans people. jeez man. smoke a bowl and play some No Man's Sky
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Sep 28, 2017 06:29
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Zaphod42 posted:That's exactly where I'm at. Maybe this is all just a parody of old star trek times values but I feel like it'd come across more genuine if that was the case and I really don't see Seth as being that self-aware. Maybe its all the rubber foreheads throwing me off or something but I dunno, it felt ridiculously ham-fisted and I know others have said the same. (But yeah, write me off as not having seen the episode and just here to troll toxic stuff or something) Both times they used Alara's strength to prove the point it didn't take and the flaws were immediately observed, it was completely genuine as a bad example. It was super hamfisted, which is why it's so amazing that you keep misreading everything about this situation (and this episode) so badly.
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Sep 28, 2017 08:24
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Kurieg posted:Well, sort of, they have mammalian X chromosomes, but that's all they have, as in both males and females have a single X chromosome and we have no idea what sex determination system they use. Also it's a vole. There's a shrew that uses X0 determination (XX is female, X alone is male). I love poo poo like this, can you recommend any good books that go into detail on sex in different species? (I've only read the red queen)
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Sep 28, 2017 08:28
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My :2cents: about the girl episode (S1E3): On the one hand, I agree that the moral issue being argued about in the episode was pretty awkwardly presented and I also agree that the ending to the episode was pretty anti-climactic and seemed shoe-horned in there. But on the other hand, I really do appreciate that they're at least trying to make a sci-fi Morality Play™ a la TNG (which we arguably haven't seen since Voyager?) but with more humour and a more down-to-Earth personality. Here's a dumb picture I drew. I used Comic Sans to emphasize how dumb it is: 
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Sep 28, 2017 14:40
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I thought it was awkwardly presented but not particularly anti climactic. They lost, but told each other they still loved I've another and would work through it, and would love the child and work for its happiness no matter what. I thought it was bittersweet.
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Sep 28, 2017 14:43
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Al Borland Corp. posted:I thought it was awkwardly presented but not particularly anti climactic. They lost, but told each other they still loved I've another and would work through it, and would love the child and work for its happiness no matter what. I thought it was bittersweet. Yeah, it was definitely bittersweet. I thought it was done perfectly at turning how it probably would have ended in TNG on it's head and still remained Trek, especially with Trek's Prime Directive.
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Sep 28, 2017 14:45
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Kurieg posted:I edited it into my post above but I think that this was an attempted lampshade on the fact that they had Dax fight more than a few Klingons in her day to prove that she's just as macho as them. And the fact that trying to beat gender equality into someone in the real world is an incredibly misguided idea. Anything in this show that is objectively bad and dumb can be waved away as them lampshading a Star Trek trope. Smith McFarland is a goddamn genius, he has created a show impervious to criticism
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Sep 28, 2017 14:47
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Iron Crowned posted:Yeah, it was definitely bittersweet. I thought it was done perfectly at turning how it probably would have ended in TNG on it's head and still remained Trek, especially with Trek's Prime Directive. Well in the one TNG episode analogous to this they actually had the same ending where the nongendered society won and altered the female to conform. It was more bitter though because you got the sense no one would see this person again and Riker got no resolution.
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Sep 28, 2017 14:55
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I love poo poo like this, can you recommend any good books that go into detail on sex in different species? (I've only read the red queen)  Sorry I can't, that's all from Wikipedia, and I stumbled upon those about a year back when I was reading up on bees.
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Sep 28, 2017 15:08
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r.y.f.s.o. posted:It's one thing to call the attempt at storytelling blunt and un-subtle, and that's perfectly valid, Macfarlane is not and will never be Stanley Kubrick,. I get that and I don't see why you couldn't use anything else as the device. Its still a sensitive subject so it'd be better to use something far less ambiguous to parody if the whole focus was actually on cultural relativity. precision posted:dude i cut you WAY more slack than pretty much every other goon on these forums and i am telling you, you seriously need to learn to admit when you're wrong because you are very wrong about this, like just on a basic fundamental objective level. this episode was not about transgender people. at all. not even a little bit. it was more about state vs. individual rights, cultural policing, etc etc. nothing to do with trans people. jeez man. smoke a bowl and play some No Man's Sky Dude, no. Accretionist is calling me a homophobe because I said the depiction of gay men was lacking? That's directly backwards. He's full of poo poo and should be told to gently caress off. He's just trolling to stir the pot. I am very obviously NOT doing that. I am here to discuss the show and I've been happy to recognize others' interpretations as well. McSpanky posted:Both times they used Alara's strength to prove the point it didn't take and the flaws were immediately observed, it was completely genuine as a bad example. It was super hamfisted, which is why it's so amazing that you keep misreading everything about this situation (and this episode) so badly. It shouldn't be that weird that when you see Seth MacFarlane joking with dildo goo aliens and rubber face gay aliens, the first thought is "this is awkward" and not "this is next level woke parody"  People pointed that out and I responded to it. You guys seem to expect an echo chamber and call anything that even slightly disagrees a troll. That's not healthy. Eiba posted:I like that the guy with trollsihly simplistic objections is getting people to explain the themes of the episode in interesting ways. This is what happens when you have a discussion instead of an echo chamber. I'm not trolling. (Accretionist is) Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 18:32
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Accretionist posted:Zaphod, do you often feel that homosexual relationships and feminism are supposed to be laughed at? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3h6es6zh1c That's obviously not true.  My concern was always that it was a bad portrayal for laughs, not that it SHOULD be for laughs.Love Stole the Day posted:On the one hand, I agree that the moral issue being argued about in the episode was pretty awkwardly presented and I also agree that the ending to the episode was pretty anti-climactic and seemed shoe-horned in there. Dude stop trolling 
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Sep 28, 2017 18:37
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It was a normal portrayal (for TV) played for drama.
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Sep 28, 2017 18:44
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I definitely enjoy the tone of the show more than the tone of the thread
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Sep 28, 2017 18:46
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It isn't a parody. Bortus and Klyden are not a parody of gay men played for laughs. They are just two gay alien husbands on TV. What the gently caress in their scenes made you think they were attempting to play it for laughs?
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Sep 28, 2017 18:53
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Brawnfire posted:I definitely enjoy the tone of the show more than the tone of the thread Please make this the thread title
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