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You could change your civics after you get whatever ascension perks you want, I guess. Or you can just declare war for tribute to expand your coffers even more.
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Oct 14, 2017 10:53
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Grocer Goodwill posted:Again, this is on normal difficulty with no advanced starts. Do I need to spam colonies? I thought that was a severe penalty to research, but maybe that's changed. I assume I'm just doing something obviously dumb, but I can't figure out what. Hopefully it's visible in the screen shot. Zane fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 15:47
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When in the early game as Fanatic Purifiers, how do you guys generally handle knocking over empires with planet types that your citizens will hate? There's an empire next to me with the same map color as me, so they have to go. But they have arctic worlds and my guys are desert preference. I'm tempted to just cleanse, but I don't want some other AI to move back into the space. I guess I should just take it over and let a few token guys be miserable on those planets for a few decades until I can terraform them? My dudes are fanatic xenophobe so I assume genemodding to make an arctic-preference subspecies wouldn't go over well.
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Oct 14, 2017 15:54
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Grocer Goodwill posted:See, this is what I'm talking about. I'm the little blue splotch in the corner. Each of these AI civs has 5 or 6 colonies, and has a relative power listed as "superior". Again, this is on normal difficulty with no advanced starts. Do I need to spam colonies? I thought that was a severe penalty to research, but maybe that's changed. I assume I'm just doing something obviously dumb, but I can't figure out what. Hopefully it's visible in the screen shot. Yes, you need to found more colonies. Your current expansion is something that should be achieved by year 5, not 30. If you influence is above 200 near the start of the game, you need to get more minerals rolling in so that you can afford more ships. Ignore anything related to research until you have so many minerals rolling in that your construction ships (build a lot) have to dump your excess cash someplace. When you site new colonies, prioritize border expansion over quality, in the beginning you don't have the population to work tiles, but you can build as many space mining stations as your influence allows you to claim. If you are short on minerals that is a huge problem, if you are short on energy get it to neutral while colonizing at least one planet, and if you're so short on influence you're not hiring an admiral or replacing that scientist who exploded you're on the right track. Edit: I just noticed you have 2500 energy credits. You are meant to draw a deficit while founding your first few colonies, you don't need to overbuild for energy unless you're going to hit 0 credits. Blorange fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 16:10
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Bold Robot posted:When in the early game as Fanatic Purifiers, how do you guys generally handle knocking over empires with planet types that your citizens will hate? I handle it through extremely adaptable.
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Oct 14, 2017 17:46
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Zane posted:your most critical objective from outset to mid-game is to colonize as quickly as possible to facilitate greater mineral exploitation. more colonies and minerals means larger fleets. larger fleets means the capacity to both deter aggression (ai will not attack you) and to use aggression to expand further. When I see phrases like "as quickly as possible", I think people are telling me strats for dominating the game, whereas I'm just trying to figure out how to stay in it. Especially since I'm talking about having all of the difficulty settings at minimum. Whatever it was - the new AI focus on expansion, or things like fanatical purifiers -- the game has gotten a lot more aggressive and cut-throat than when I last played it. I get that people who've been playing it a lot would like that, but I'm not enjoying it at all. I guess I'll put the game aside again for a while until they add a Very Easy For Big Dumb Babbys difficulty setting.
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Oct 14, 2017 18:43
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Grocer Goodwill posted:See, this is what I'm talking about. I'm the little blue splotch in the corner. Each of these AI civs has 5 or 6 colonies, and has a relative power listed as "superior". Again, this is on normal difficulty with no advanced starts. Do I need to spam colonies? I thought that was a severe penalty to research, but maybe that's changed. I assume I'm just doing something obviously dumb, but I can't figure out what. Hopefully it's visible in the screen shot. You don't need to spam colonies, but if you see a good planet that your guys can live on, you should take it, especially early. If you have 2 planets and your next-door neighbor has 6 planets, that means they're making roughly three times as many minerals as you are, and can build roughly three times as many ships as you can, three times as fast as you can. That's way more important than the relatively minor research and unity advantage you get from staying small. On top of that, if you only have 2 or 3 planets, your empire is small enough that a foe can annex the entire thing in one war. You're losing because owning more stuff means you can build more things and have more resources, so empires with more planets can build bigger fleets. Economy is important.
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Oct 14, 2017 18:51
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Grocer Goodwill posted:When I see phrases like "as quickly as possible", I think people are telling me strats for dominating the game, whereas I'm just trying to figure out how to stay in it. Especially since I'm talking about having all of the difficulty settings at minimum. Whatever it was - the new AI focus on expansion, or things like fanatical purifiers -- the game has gotten a lot more aggressive and cut-throat than when I last played it. I get that people who've been playing it a lot would like that, but I'm not enjoying it at all. I guess I'll put the game aside again for a while until they add a Very Easy For Big Dumb Babbys difficulty setting. You don't have to hard-optimize or anything, just try to at least hit your system cap by 10-15 years in, which is very doable by just picking a point in time and saying 'I'm saving 500 minerals to make a colony ship' every few years. if you just try to stay at your system cap as you get those colonial techs that increase it you should be able to survive (barring unfortunate happenstance), and if you make sure to frontier outpost juicy looking systems you can earmark yourself some future expansion without having to worry about speed. You can play the game slow for sure, but you still have to at least put yourself out there a bit if you want to make sure you'll survive, because taking territory both keeps you strong and prevents other empire from swooping in and getting stronger off it. If you're playing that kind of game, though, turn off Crises because they will end you if you aren't competitive.
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Oct 14, 2017 18:51
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Grocer Goodwill posted:Okay, I think I've figured out what the problem is. This "fanatic purifiers" thing is new since I last played, and, uh... it sucks. Their ships are 15% cheaper, 33% stronger, and their capacity is 33% larger? Going back over my last few games, it was always one of these that got me. Some of the games had two of them. Are they guaranteed to appear? Do you need a mod to turn them off? Lucky you, generally purifiers perform poorly in most of my games because everyone immediately allies against them and curb stomps them into the dirt as soon as possible. Your best defence against them is a similar thing, make friends with someone else. Really you should always do this in any game you play because the best way to win a way is not to get into one, and defensive pacts are the best way to deter them. If you're having trouble actually staying in the game I think this is probably your biggest stumbling block. Other empires will eat you if you don't make a little effort to get along with them. This means any time you find someone who doesn't hate you, get a NAP with them and then upgrade to defensive pacts with at least one strong empire. Diplomacy in stellaris is reliable, if someone likes you they won't magically stop liking you for no reason and won't betray you. Grocer Goodwill posted:See, this is what I'm talking about. I'm the little blue splotch in the corner. Each of these AI civs has 5 or 6 colonies, and has a relative power listed as "superior". Again, this is on normal difficulty with no advanced starts. Do I need to spam colonies? I thought that was a severe penalty to research, but maybe that's changed. I assume I'm just doing something obviously dumb, but I can't figure out what. Hopefully it's visible in the screen shot. If you have that much clear space around you, you should be plopping down frontier outposts to claim it. Plant your flag on as much physical space as you can, even if you have to backfill it later with colonies. The early game is a land grab so if you don't spend some minerals to claim land, the other empires will because you clearly don't want it. Colonization and outpost placement are important parts of the early game, you don't have to colonize everything you see but your objective is to spread your borders over as much space as possible because space is what gives you your income. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 19:03
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Is there a way to modify allied fleet behavior or is it hard coded? Its really annoying that if your enemy has a 15k fleet and you and your ally both have 12k fleets your ally will just turtle up in their own space despite being able to easily take the enemy fleet if you worked together. I mean thats the entire point of a defensive pact right. edit: apparently complaining on a forum is how you get an allied fleet to follow you. Is it only SA? paradox plaza? reddit? Wiz, you need to document this!! hobbesmaster fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 19:10
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hobbesmaster posted:Is there a way to modify allied fleet behavior or is it hard coded? Its really annoying that if your enemy has a 15k fleet and you and your ally both have 12k fleets your ally will just turtle up in their own space despite being able to easily take the enemy fleet if you worked together. I mean thats the entire point of a defensive pact right.
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Oct 14, 2017 19:22
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Grocer Goodwill posted:When I see phrases like "as quickly as possible", I think people are telling me strats for dominating the game, whereas I'm just trying to figure out how to stay in it. Especially since I'm talking about having all of the difficulty settings at minimum. Whatever it was - the new AI focus on expansion, or things like fanatical purifiers -- the game has gotten a lot more aggressive and cut-throat than when I last played it. I get that people who've been playing it a lot would like that, but I'm not enjoying it at all. I guess I'll put the game aside again for a while until they add a Very Easy For Big Dumb Babbys difficulty setting. That's the thing. The game was sold as grand strategy and as 4X, but it's not. It's RTS(And becoming more so as penalties are eased up), and the AI is rush-happy, as a player would be. Don't let the timeframes like 60 days or 12 months fool you. If it borders you, it will over-build past it's official capacity, then attack. You have to do these things to stay in the game(especially if you start in a crowd). Because the AI WILL do them itself. It will grab everything it possibly can, and fill out it's fleets, and so on. You are on the clock from day 1, if not from other Empires, then from the Crisis Events, or a Fallen Empire Awakening. You must be ready, and that means you do not have the luxury of trundling about like you might with Crusader Kings 2. Sad as that sounds. It's not even about dominance, but survival. You must pump out as much as possible, as fast as possible. Small forces either band together or die.
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Oct 14, 2017 19:25
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Splicer posted:One of your fleet's buttons is a take point button. You friends should follow you if you press it. There are hidden conditions for whether or not they actually will.
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Oct 14, 2017 19:28
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Bloodly posted:The game was sold as grand strategy and as 4X, but it's not. It's RTS That's an excellent way of putting it, and succinctly explains why it's not for me. It's a shame, because I was really enjoying it in its original incarnation.
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Oct 14, 2017 19:43
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Grocer Goodwill posted:That's an excellent way of putting it, and succinctly explains why it's not for me. It's a shame, because I was really enjoying it in its original incarnation. I think you're misunderstanding us, Stellaris might be RTSish in multiplayer but a single player game on the easiest setting should have a relaxed feel to it. In your screenshot, you are actually making fewer minerals per month than you start the game with. That's telling me that something is going incredibly wrong, and you'll enjoy the game a lot more if you figure out what that is. Saying to prioritize minerals and colonies early shouldn't be taken to mean to max your APM, get colonies ASAP, it means that once you get those down you have a lot more choices to make. It's akin to saying prioritize food in Civ 5. It's the resource that compounds to get you more of everything else that you need, and once that's no longer an issue you can open the rest of the game up. Blorange fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 20:02
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I really don't agree that it's an RTS, the only time you have to fight is if a crisis happens or if you want to take over someone else's territory. It's a 4x, your ability to conduct unilateral diplomacy is determined by how many resources you control, but your ability to conduct bilateral diplomacy is determined by how nice you want to be. If you want to not fight anything you can do so by just getting along with your neighbors. Yes if you want to claim neutral territory you will have to actually do something to claim it, the AI isn't going to just not settle places you've ignored for 50 years out of kindness but nor are they particularly aggressive. They're stupid in that they'll occasionally fly through your empire to settle a planet that is miles away by hyperlane but which is absolutely closer to their capital, but that's an issue with how they comprehend distance more than anything. There just really is no reason why you should be pressured in a normal game of stellaris unless you deliberately pick an empire that cannot do diplomacy, the AI is incredibly passive for the most part and won't attack you even opportunistically as long as your relations are in the positive. Even fallen empires waking up are not an existential threat, because you can just sign whatever treaty they're offering and they'll leave you alone and back you up in a fight. An empire waking up is a change of context for the game, not a threat, unless you make it one. Literally the only thing that puts pressure on people in the game is a crisis and even that is largely down to chance whether it lands on you or not. If it lands on some other fucker on the other side of the galaxy it's their problem not yours. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 20:09
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Grocer Goodwill posted:That's an excellent way of putting it, and succinctly explains why it's not for me. It's a shame, because I was really enjoying it in its original incarnation. Try another game, but this time, once you've started spacemining all the energy and mineral deposits in your initial system, don't build research stations but instead save up 500 minerals for a colonist ship and settle a good nearby planet. Then once that planet is colonized and the -8 energy drain goes away, do the same again. Do this until you've reached your cap. You'll have plenty of minerals in the meantime to develop your homeworld and expand your fleet. Focus your initial research on things like those solar panels and other techs that give you extra energy and minerals until you have at least 3 planets. That should get you going, and you'll see you've surpassed that screenshot by year 10.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:18
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Also have more than one active science ship and expand towards systems with lots of space based mineral and energy income. I try to shoot for around 5 science ships running at once.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:23
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Bloodly posted:That's the thing. Stellaris is far closer to Civ than Starcraft and much more forgiving than either. On Hard/Hard the AI is less aggressive than any Civ game on Prince. Nothing you have said would be out of place in a "how to play above Chieftain" post.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:30
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Taeke posted:Try another game, but this time, once you've started spacemining all the energy and mineral deposits in your initial system, don't build research stations but instead save up 500 minerals for a colonist ship and settle a good nearby planet. Then once that planet is colonized and the -8 energy drain goes away, do the same again. Do this until you've reached your cap. You'll have plenty of minerals in the meantime to develop your homeworld and expand your fleet. Focus your initial research on things like those solar panels and other techs that give you extra energy and minerals until you have at least 3 planets. That should get you going, and you'll see you've surpassed that screenshot by year 10. Personally my suggestion is to avoid going for any stations that only give you 2 of a resource. 3 is good, 4 is best. If you get one of the 6 science ones then grab that but in the early game, stations are real expensive so I wouldn't build them unless I had to or unless they have more than the base yield. It's thrown off a bit in that gullis planet modifiers can roll asteroids with up to 9 minerals surprisingly often but even without that I still wouldn't focus on getting the small mines, either you end up building a stockpile for a colony ship or you wait until you discover richer systems and outpost them.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:42
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Blorange posted:In your screenshot, you are actually making fewer minerals per month than you start the game with. That's telling me that something is going incredibly wrong, and you'll enjoy the game a lot more if you figure out what that is. Maybe you can tell me. (I do not know what Consumer Goods are).
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Oct 14, 2017 20:55
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I love the Egalitarian voice. It sounds like a drunken American fell into a recording booth. "CONSTUCTION... COMPLEE."
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Oct 14, 2017 20:57
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Grocer Goodwill posted:Maybe you can tell me. (I do not know what Consumer Goods are).
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Oct 14, 2017 21:03
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Realtime games are a bit like a race through a series of checkpoints. The first checkpoint is getting some planets like maybe 5 or so, alternately you can aim for the core cap, somewhere in that ballpark. I think sometimes the advice to expand faster comes off as git gud or powergamer advice. That's really not the way to look at it. If you asked the question of "How fast do I need to be able to run a race to compete at <regionals> or <state> or <national> championships" you might find there's a range of performance that you can expect to meet at a certain level of challenge. It's like that with strategy games too. The AI has been tuned and now plays pretty reasonably, which is to expand heavily at the start when space is uncontested. It's the only part of the game where you can get planets and resources without having to force them from someone, so it's to your interest to grab as much space as possible while space claims are available, then really maximize its utility once space is at a premium due to borders or planet cap. The first pace that you need to be able to reach is hitting the core cap without going so quickly that you have no military and a neighbor murders you, and without going so slowly that you fall behind on claiming space. Consumer goods are like a 'resource tax' your citizens cost your empire, based on their quality of life. As you get more citizens the consumer goods usage will go up, meaning you'll need to grab more minerals to offset the tax. It's a soft tax on your mineral income as your empire grows. I think you can mouse over a pop to see its consumer goods use but I'm not in front of my pc to double check, apologies if that's incorrect. I know you can get more details on the consumer goods use for sure. Ham Sandwiches fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 21:06
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Grocer Goodwill posted:Maybe you can tell me. (I do not know what Consumer Goods are). Post your planets. 
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Oct 14, 2017 21:21
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Bloodly posted:That's the thing. Grand strategy games and 4Xs both require expansion too, with bigger empires ultimately being able to build bigger militaries than their foe. It's just that both genres (though mostly just grand strategy) usually put more roadblocks in empires' way to limit their expansion and force them to direct their efforts in other directions, while Stellaris is a remarkably blobby game. I don't really understand why people keep expecting "sit around doing nothing while the AI empires expand all around you" to be a viable playstyle. Hell, one of the 4 Xs in 4X is "eXpand", and another one is "eXploit" (as in, gather resources and grow production).
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Oct 14, 2017 21:54
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turn off the TV posted:Post your planets. Yeah I think we need to see those. Fake e; It doesn't help that his home system is totally devoid of minerals. That's going to make life harder for anyone, but someone totally new to the game is really going to struggle, even getting say 5 minerals there would mean, assuming he built within the first year, that he'd have got 1800 minerals above what he has over the past 30 years. Plenty for three colony ships with change. Fake e2; From the other map Grocer, you know three other powers. So here's the fix: Go talk to them and try to trade away your energy stockpile for minerals if they're willing. If you've got Leviathans and have met a Trader station you can do it there too. You are far enough away from them all that you're in no real military danger at this point, so you don't need to expand the fleet any for the time being. Save up all your minerals, and you have two objectives. First*, get Colony Ships out to Zedran, Sarack, and then Ulm, to colonize the planets in those. Second, place a Frontier Outpost in Rimdur and use it to set up mines there, in Tiriyok, and most of all in Lawan. Place only one or two buildings on each world as it comes online, pops grow slowly enough that you won't need to turn them into hive worlds right away or anything. *If the minerals visible in Zedran are not on the actual colony world and all three are on a single body, get a mine there first of all, at 90 minerals it would pay for itself in two and a half years, well under the timescale for the rest of the project. Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 22:09
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Main Paineframe posted:I don't really understand why people keep expecting "sit around doing nothing while the AI empires expand all around you" to be a viable playstyle. Hell, one of the 4 Xs in 4X is "eXpand", and another one is "eXploit" (as in, gather resources and grow production). This is the crux of the issue, I think. Older 4X games like Civs 1-4 really put a hard emphasis on "nothing will happen if you don't make it happen". It's actually fairly common in the genre. Stellaris is pretty heavy on scripted events and other "outside-context threats" like Fallen Empires and Endgame Crises, but it still seems to follow the basic rule that being active will always be better than being passive. Looking at that screenshot I don't understand what the player did for 30 in-game years. I don't think this is a "this game is really an RTS!" problem, a lot of the advice that is perfectly applicable for getting past babby difficulty in 4X games would apply here.
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Oct 14, 2017 22:14
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I'd need to see your planets to figure out exactly what's going wrong but 26 absolute production by 2030 is woefully low. I would guess, off the top of my head, that you aren't expanding into other systems so you don't have any space station income because you don't control enough systems inside your borders. That's what colonies and frontier outposts are for, you must control territory. I do wonder what you're doing all the time though if you aren't expanding, are you just sitting with it on max fast forward waiting for something to happen? What are you spending all your minerals on? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 22:18
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Grocer Goodwill posted:Maybe you can tell me. (I do not know what Consumer Goods are). From what I can tell, you've invested all of your minerals into corvettes instead of things that harvest you more minerals. If you don't have the minerals immediately available in your home system, it's worth it to build mines on your homeworld to get off the ground. A single mine is going to pay for itself very quickly, and over the time you've played would've given you enough minerals to build multiple other buildings. That un-mined +3 minerals planet near your homeworld could have provided 900 minerals over the course of your game so far, enough to build half your fleet. The 14 mineral system just outside your borders would have been a good frontier outpost target, that would've provided ~4000 minerals over the 25 years you would have owned it. Spend your minerals own acquiring more minerals, meaning asteroid mines, mines on your planets (as needed), new colonies and frontier outposts to claim more territory. You'll naturally see how a more construction ships, outposts and your military become affordable because you'll have nothing else to spend your minerals on.
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Oct 14, 2017 22:59
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OwlFancier posted:I do wonder what you're doing all the time though if you aren't expanding, are you just sitting with it on max fast forward waiting for something to happen? What are you spending all your minerals on? I'm curious about this because it's actually interesting to me, not like "haha what a noob." It feels like really alien and I would like to know what happened and what the motivations were. I try to grow my mans and even get game over'd sometimes because of how lovely I play. The idea that you need to be x good to get to x point in the game: Ham Sandwiches posted:Realtime games are a bit like a race through a series of checkpoints. The first checkpoint is getting some planets like maybe 5 or so, alternately you can aim for the core cap, somewhere in that ballpark. Is absolutely real and true, I've been in situations where I was tunnel visioned on some specific goal and then I look up and everyone's huge and i'm hosed. In fact it was not that long ago that "look up and realize you're way behind" was when a ruthless capitalist empire wardecced to gain ownership of all my planets (3). I looked up and they were dropping colonies right next to me. I was able to gently caress with them some but it was already too late. Trying to build too tall in this game is a mistake unless you know exactly what you're doing. I used to love doing discovery asap but now I think it's not worth it. I'd regularly be several techs ahead but not have the economy to survive bullies.
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Oct 14, 2017 23:12
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One of the things that holds back my expansion in the early game is that I hate handing planets over to a sector if they haven't been fully built, lest they get screwed up. :/
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Oct 14, 2017 23:20
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There is a bit of an early game hump that you eventually learn to get over as soon as possible, which is that at the very start of the game your mineral surplus is what allows you to snowball into competitiveness, your absolute priority early on is getting your mineral surplus to something like 30 per month as soon as possible, because at that point you really start to pick up speed. Minerals are your primary development currency and at the start of the game you have everything to develop. The more surplus mineral income you have, the faster you can do everything else at the start. If you're constantly sitting on about 10-20 mineral surplus you're going to be very restricted on what you can do so your goal is to get out of that asap. 30 or so is about what you need to be at your limit of how many colonies you can afford to plant before you start running out of power, and it will let you build mining stations at a steady rate with 1 constructor. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 23:26
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So my commonwealth of man game with unity home planet game just met the United nations of earth and one of the diplomatic replies with xenophobe is "alien scum!" Like what the gently caress is that?
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Oct 15, 2017 00:07
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Robots the early mineral hump is even more pronounced because your pop growth is tied to it as well, so it can feel even harder to climb over. The thing is once you do you basically have no restrictions at all to further growth so you can snowball really hard. I really like it.
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Oct 15, 2017 00:21
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If nothing else, remember to build the mining networks on the planet. It's base value of 2+tile mineral(s) seems unappealing but the reources being gathered is also affected by pop modifiers too. This can lead to an extra one or two mineral being gathered which will help a lot in the early game.
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Oct 15, 2017 00:37
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TipsyMcStagger posted:So my commonwealth of man game with unity home planet game just met the United nations of earth and one of the diplomatic replies with xenophobe is "alien scum!" Like what the gently caress is that? The diplomatic greetings are tied to your empire's governing ethics, so the game doesn't care you're Humans meeting Humans. It will, though, acknowledge if your race is named Humans, as even a custom species with different traits from the precon Human empires will get the intro blurb about how your empire had distant origins in Africa. If you have different Humans from different empires or pops, events that alter your primary pop will alter all of them, like one of the Horizon Signal events or Psionic Awakening. Autism Sneaks fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Oct 15, 2017 |
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Oct 15, 2017 00:48
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Is it worth the energy investment to build+2 mineral mining stations in space? I feel like I read a while back that they aren’t worth the resources it takes to keep them running, but I may be making that up...
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Oct 15, 2017 02:30
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I always build all mining stations at the beginning. Usually you get a decent surplus of energy by the time you start colonizing, and having a negative amount trickles down pretty slowly. Since you tend towards basically unlimited energy in the middle and end game, it's worth it to get the mineral bases since they'll jumpstart your economy.
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Oct 15, 2017 02:38
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Hot Dog Day #82 posted:Is it worth the energy investment to build+2 mineral mining stations in space? I feel like I read a while back that they aren’t worth the resources it takes to keep them running, but I may be making that up... They convert energy to minerals at a 1:2 ratio and cost no pops to run, so they are worth it. Your main consideration is whether it's worth building them right at the start instead of a +3 or +4 station because your starting income is small enough that a mining station may be a large investment, and when you don't have any stations, an extra +1 or +2 is a major difference.
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Oct 15, 2017 02:40
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