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This might be too e/n but i just flipped my mindset. How would i feel if others accused me of laughing at them behind their back when they had no proof, and I wasn't? Its not easy and I live in New England, not the South so its a very different environment, but I try and assume the best in people unless proven otherwise, cause it just doesn't seem fair to do any different.
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Oct 17, 2017 16:10
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Thalantos posted:Wait were the gayest city in the country? Number 3 after New York and San Fransisco in 2000. If someone has gone through the 2010 census for that data, I can't find it. But I did find this map!  I'd make a joke about refugees from Alabama and Mississippi, but having hung out with some of the gays in Alabama, it's impossible to convince them that Atlanta is a whole different world from Auburn or Birmingham.
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Oct 17, 2017 16:18
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RagnarokAngel posted:This might be too e/n but i just flipped my mindset. How would i feel if others accused me of laughing at them behind their back when they had no proof, and I wasn't? Oh I don't accuse people of it, and they're all random strangers anyway. If someone random accused me of doing that and I hadn't it would just be a ::shrugs:: "no....." Cishets who don't interact with the community talk poo poo about Trans folks behind their back. At least on metro Atlanta.
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Oct 17, 2017 16:33
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I don't mean openly accuse with a finger point, I mean carrying that suspicion. It affects how you talk to people even when you think it doesn't, you don't open up, seem overly guarded things like that. I think about how I'd feel if someone clearly didn't trust me even though I didn't do anything and hold no ill will to them. I'd wonder if I did something wrong.
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Oct 17, 2017 16:35
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RagnarokAngel posted:I don't mean openly accuse with a finger point, I mean carrying that suspicion. It affects how you talk to people even when you think it doesn't, you don't open up, seem overly guarded things like that. Then cis should stop being assholes? I wouldn't feel this way if I hadn't spent years seeing it be the majority response. I know it's mentally unhealthy. Being a minority is mentally unhealthy because society shits on you all the time.
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Oct 17, 2017 16:44
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Thalantos posted:Then cis should stop being assholes? Judging the actions of everyone based on previous experience is like literally textbook "don't do this" though. I'm not trying to make a false equivalency though, you certainly have reason to be guarded compared to a cishet person who's lovely to LGBT people. And I'm not gonna tell you how to live your life, but Aleph Null asked for perspective from another trans person so I gave it. RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 16:49
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I guess.
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Oct 17, 2017 17:18
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Yeah, when I was much younger and in denial about being trans, I happened to work around a trans woman who absolutely did not pass. People were goddamn horrific about her behind her back. Lots of people called her it, not just he, and this was the majority commonly expressed opinion. Anyone who was actually not a lovely bigot kept their mouth shut, and I was terrified to speak up because I didn’t want people thinking that I was like her. I have a goddamn massive chip on my shoulder about people not really respecting my identity still, and because I seem to pass well, I don’t bring this up amongst people unless I know or strongly suspect they are supportive. I work with people who don’t seem to respect Caitlyn Jenner’s pronouns at all, and make casually transphobic remarks on occasion. I just bite my tongue and ignore this as best I can, because I suspect that I would be retaliated against by coworkers, and HR would be useless. So my experience is that most people are default lovely about this, and too disinterested to actually bother caring until it affects them or a loved one. I have soooo much more “skin in the game” about this than some casually transphobic cis person, and it’s exhausting trying to constantly manage people’s expectations, so I try to just keep my head down. I don’t hate cis people per se, but my experience leads me to not expect much from them the second I start making them uncomfortable bringing this up . So I try to not actively call out their low key bullshit so I can stay sane and employed. If that makes me judgmental in a bad way towards cis people, I give zero fucks. They’ve drat well earned my ire. Problematic Soup fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 17:48
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I'm in a fairly similar situation where I'm only out irl to a total of two people and just try to live my life, keep my head down, etc. Many members of my family claim to be really "tolerant" but are actually massive lovely bigots (which extends to race, religion, sexuality, etc.) and if I were to actually come out to them I'm 100% sure they'd try to pretend to be supportive and then turn into absolute monsters when I'm not there. The same is true with most of the people I work with, some of whom wouldn't even try to pretend to be cool with it, where there's a low-key culture of transphobia being totally okay and "funny". I'm glad there are some trans people who don't have to assume that most of the people they know and interact with would treat them like poo poo, because it's a really bad feeling.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:02
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Honestly, I just try to remove myself from the culture and only interact with other queers
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Oct 17, 2017 18:13
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It took three years of gentle pressure to get my company to stop offering only health insurance to employees that explicitly forbade any treatment related to being transgender. 2016 was the first year and they only did it because the law firm they share a building with started offering inclusive insurance and they didn't want to look bad. I worry that they'll drop it again for 2017 thanks to the political climate. Oddly enough, they've offered same-sex partners the the benefits of married couples for more than a decade. Diversity and acceptance only goes so far. The first official question I was asked at work is "what bathroom do you plan to use?" My boss has been super supportive the entire time because I do better work now. Trans be weird, I guess. Even after five years, I've only worn a skirt once (to a wedding) and never worn a dress due to the "man-in-a-dress" trope. I just cannot do it. And, apparently, I pass pretty well. People assume I'm a cis woman. And I do not correct them. Why would I?
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Oct 17, 2017 18:15
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I'm in the same boat where I used to operate under the assumption that people just lie to my face and then act like assholes when I'm not there, and that was reinforced by a lot of childhood and teenage trauma unrelated to being trans, and it took me 2 years working with an extremely good therapist (the 3rd I'd tried over the course of transitioning) to get to the point where someone could compliment me and I could accept that they were being factual rather than "just being nice". That lack of trust in people's intentions is a particularly nasty brainworm because it's reinforced by a lot of real lived experience for most of us, and it can be really hard to switch from having your guard up among strangers to having your walls down around people you know. And as Thalantos says, if the people you know are doing that poo poo, you need to cut them out of your life because it's not good for you to have 0 places where you can relax and trust the people around you. That path leads to anxiety and depression.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:53
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My statement about atlanta being the gayest city in the country wasn't a per capita statement but rather based on some article i read probably 5 years ago that rated it the gay friendliest city in the nation with various metrics like support community, clubs, population, etc.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:53
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When I said the spectre of homophobia was a fading ghost, I said fading, not gone. A lot of closed-door examples from people who grew up in a different era and are dying. Some pandering from politicos for a demo grab. Call someone "loving human being" at WalMart in an unironic way and look at what the random sample of eyes say about it. Nobody's saying hate is not still out there, but it's been pushed to the fringes. If only the rest of the planet could catch up.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:57
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FantasticExtrusion posted:When I said the spectre of homophobia was a fading ghost, I said fading, not gone. A lot of closed-door examples from people who grew up in a different era and are dying. Some pandering from politicos for a demo grab. Call someone "loving human being" at WalMart in an unironic way and look at what the random sample of eyes say about it. I'm so happy for you. For trans people the hate is still right out in the open, everywhere. We get called trannies on the street, people follow us to the bathroom or the car, we get kicked out of changing rooms in department stores, we're murdered at a much higher rate than other groups, our suicide rate is through the roof, and our own government is at the forefront of finding new ways to persecute us. If you have stuff to say about the gay experience feel free, but Kramering into a conversation about trans people to assert that lifesaving treatments are problematic in your view as a cis gay dude and then telling us about how hate free your life is is real hosed up. Please don't mute other people's challenges and traumas by bragging about how great it is for gays in the year 2017.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:04
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Thalantos posted:Honestly, I just try to remove myself from the culture and only interact with other queers i need money to live
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Oct 17, 2017 19:05
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FantasticExtrusion posted:When I said the spectre of homophobia was a fading ghost, I said fading, not gone. A lot of closed-door examples from people who grew up in a different era and are dying. Some pandering from politicos for a demo grab. Call someone "loving human being" at WalMart in an unironic way and look at what the random sample of eyes say about it. The leader of my country just joked about how his second in command wants to genocide queers. That's not fringe. Edit: I got called a human being and threatened with violence on the train just a few weeks ago and ain't NOBODY else on that train did a drat thing. Dwanyelle fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 19:16
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AriadneThread posted:i need money to live I work for queer people. I actually couldn't get a job in the straight world and had started doing SW to pay rent and buy groceries before I got a job.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:17
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cis autodrag posted:I'm so happy for you. For trans people the hate is still right out in the open, everywhere. We get called trannies on the street, people follow us to the bathroom or the car, we get kicked out of changing rooms in department stores, we're murdered at a much higher rate than other groups, our suicide rate is through the roof, and our own government is at the forefront of finding new ways to persecute us. ^that Thalantos posted:The leader of my country just joked about how his second in command wants to genocide queers. ^that
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Oct 17, 2017 19:26
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cis autodrag posted:For trans people the hate is still right out in the open, everywhere. That was my point. It's so ridiculed I am not comfortable accepting the label. Thus I usually can't share opinions about something that personally effects me. Largely because assumptions about me and my experiences are made based on sexual orientation, gender, and even race. It's a huge source of anxiety, not having anywhere you can openly share your beliefs without fielding a torrent of personal attacks.
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Oct 17, 2017 20:06
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FantasticExtrusion posted:That was my point. It's so ridiculed I am not comfortable accepting the label. Well, if your beliefs include concern trolling us about gender surgeries, I don’t really give a poo poo.
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Oct 17, 2017 20:09
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I literally can't keep track of what I have and haven't said because I am so afraid of your reaction I spend two hours on every post doing and undoing, afraid of hurting someone's feelings. I had cosmetic surgery twice before the age of twelve. It physically and emotionally scarred me. But it wasn't destructive, so I can't complain. I don't know which parts you need to hear. About the day I was dragged out of my apartment by the police who didn't have or apparently need a warrant? How about the hundreds if not thousands of hours of forced participation in gender-appropriate activities I never would have taken an interest in alone. And now someone wants to paint me with a wide brush. Now I come screaming over the mountain spitting dip after all these years, finally half-way able to stand on my own: And I'm too weird, turns out the "spectrum" has banded into islands and either you're in or you're out.
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Oct 17, 2017 20:22
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I'm well aware of the objections you've brought up regarding SRS. Every Trans person I know is also aware of them. You'd be an idiot not to be, and they're a reason why I personally feel conflicted about getting surgery. You came off as condesending, and I've had to deal with "concerned cis" way way way too often to give folks the benefit of the doubt. If being trans weren't so spit upon, would you ID as trans? Some of your words don't really sound like something a cis person would say, tbh. Do you not want to be the gender you were assigned at birth ?
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Oct 17, 2017 20:39
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Oct 17, 2017 20:43
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FantasticExtrusion posted:When I said the spectre of homophobia was a fading ghost, I said fading, not gone. A lot of closed-door examples from people who grew up in a different era and are dying. Some pandering from politicos for a demo grab. Call someone "loving human being" at WalMart in an unironic way and look at what the random sample of eyes say about it. So I'm cringing that I'm doing some truth is in the middle bullshit but here I go. I want to agree with you, I think no matter how dark the spectre of transphobia is right now you are right. You're saying it's not gone but it's going and you're absolutely right. But it's not going anytime soon. That's sorta where you took the statement too far, it's hardly "Fringe" even if it's not what it was, 10, 20 years ago. I'm on the flip side, it probably has to do where I live but I am in a good place in my life. I have the opportunity to work in child care and not only have I never been attacked for my gender identity outside of some kids with mental illness taking a cheap shot in anger, everyone is supportive and my bosses have backed me up. This wouldn't have happened decades before and gives me hope things can improve. For many it's not the case though, and while I personally don't have a problem with "it's get better" talk because it's the only thing that keeps me going some time, you gotta nail a bit of a balance in how you're bringing that out, since for so many the experience is so lovely it's really hard to not feel like you're speaking from ignore and not empathy.
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Oct 17, 2017 20:44
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FantasticExtrusion posted:I'm just some huge gay butthole with objections to reassignment surgery and a strong fear of the scarlet letter associated with not liking the idea generally. I have no objection to the idea of doing it, but the specific tools and methods raise a lot of concerns; and not like weird concerns about due process or anything, just truthfully I think people deserve better, I see them as my peers, and I want to find a way for those people to be comfortable that doesn't involve potentially destructive surgery. Likewise I stand in nobody's way, do whatever with yourself. It was this, right? This is what you are upset about? I don't dispute the fact that gender affirming surgery helps transgender individuals. But if someone were to have that forced on them, like, say, a homosexual man in Iran, it would seem pretty horrific. It would taking a cisgender person and forcing them into dysphoria. Someone who had felt threatened by that would have a very different opinion on gender affirming surgery. Also, what about the fact that society basically requires "the surgery" before they will take you seriously. Like, I can't count how many times people have asked me "have you had the surgery?" like it is just a normal topic of conversation. Why should that matter? If I tell them "No" will they consider me a dirty tranny and not a "real woman". Would it matter if I had had "the surgery"? I hate that I feel the need to have "the surgery" whether I want it or not, just so I can finally fit in. Especially knowing that I will still be excluded when people find out, no matter what work I have done. It will never be enough to make into someone who was born a cisgender woman. I guess that's just dysphoria. I totally wish there was a magic hospital like the one shown in movies and cartoons where a buff, burly dude walks in, and a petite, leggy chick walks out. That's what non-LGBT people think. Probably even some LGB people. I loving wish. But even though it doesn't exist, society wants everybody to look like it does. Are you a transwoman with a receding hairline and a beer gut? Nope. You are a really gay man in a dress. Are you a transman with breasts? Lol, no. You are just a butch lesbian. Also, the genital surgeries aren't that great. You can have your penis inverted into a hole that sort of looks like a vagina, but isn't one and doesn't function like one, and doesn't have ovaries or a uterus. You're gonna have to babysit your neo-vagina because it's not self-cleaning and doesn't have all the mucus membranes. I'm not as familiar with the surgery to create neo-phalluses, but I understand they don't have a way to give a transman the ability to form a natural erection. What you get involves pumps, I think? You end up with something that passes a cursory inspection, but may create more issues than it solves because it will never be perfect or even average. I think that is what the poster is trying to say, well, one of these things.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:13
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Yeah what happens is, something kicks me into gear and it tends to be whatever's most contentious. I never learn. Now we're kind of at a lot of angles because I just sort of poured all the legos out on the floor like an rear end in a top hat. That's still what I was saying the spectre of homophobia. Generally people are accepting (again less is more) orientations; not so much nonbinary gender roles. I realize the two are conflated. I am sorta incorporating new ethos. You can't blame an audience for not understanding you, it was your job as the speaker to be understood. If there is no way to be understood, you need history that establishes trust, or credibility. Or you're just that wrong. I was way too forward with poo poo I feel way too strongly about, and I apologize for that.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:16
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FantasticExtrusion posted:Yeah what happens is, something kicks me into gear and it tends to be whatever's most contentious. I never learn. I sent you a DM, did you get it?
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Oct 17, 2017 21:55
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Aleph Null posted:It was this, right? This is what you are upset about? Your information is out of date and the idea that confirmation surgery results in a "fake" genital that doesn't work like the real thing is propaganda. Yes, penile inversion is the technique that is used to make a neovagina, but barring horrific complications they're extremely functional. Yes we will always deal with the dysphoria of not having a uterus and being unable to have children, but vaginas and penises form from the same set of tissues in utero and modern surgeons have gotten really good at doing things like using the mucosa from the inside of the glans penis it form the labia minora and forming extremely accurate clitorises and hoods. Although most trans women can't self lubricate, plenty of cis women have that problem too. Neovaginas have full sexual function, again barring catastrophic complications, and many trans women report even increased function compared to pre surgery since dysphoria no longer interferes. The painting of confirmation surgery as some kind of devils bargain to attain pacification of dysphoria at some sort of nebulous personal expense is dangerous and contributes to the atmosphere of stigma that lets insurance companies refuse coverage to us and the government to refuse treatment to prisoners and soldiers.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:21
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Surgeries are also dangerous by their very nature. It costs lots of money. You often have complications afterwards. I get they're better and better over time. But I don't want a neovagina. I want a cisgender vagina. I want a uterus and ovaries. Srs is, like pretty much everything transition related, is about making the best of a bad situation.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:28
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cis autodrag posted:Your information is out of date and the idea that confirmation surgery results in a "fake" genital that doesn't work like the real thing is propaganda. Yes, penile inversion is the technique that is used to make a neovagina, but barring horrific complications they're extremely functional. Yes we will always deal with the dysphoria of not having a uterus and being unable to have children, but vaginas and penises form from the same set of tissues in utero and modern surgeons have gotten really good at doing things like using the mucosa from the inside of the glans penis it form the labia minora and forming extremely accurate clitorises and hoods. Although most trans women can't self lubricate, plenty of cis women have that problem too. Neovaginas have full sexual function, again barring catastrophic complications, and many trans women report even increased function compared to pre surgery since dysphoria no longer interferes. I guess the doctor I consulted with just didn't want to get my hopes up? That was just about exactly a year ago. His after surgery care regimen included douching a few times a week to keep the neo-vagina squeaky clean, no vaginal flora for you. The pictures of his work looked... bad, functional but not aesthetically pleasing. Like he forgot the labiaplasty. To be fair, it's one of the reasons I've gone cold on the whole idea. I've read great things and then this guy tore down all my illusions by laying out the "facts". This is someone my therapist recommended because other folks have had good results and praised his work (and he's the only surgeon offering GRS within easy driving distance). I can't fly for various reasons. I also had to have a letter from my therapist, another supplemental therapist, and my endocrinologist all saying I was a good candidate before they'd contact my insurance. Edit: Thalantos posted:But I don't want a neovagina. I want a cisgender vagina. I want a uterus and ovaries. Seeing a baby and realizing "I will never be a mother" was pretty rough the first time it happened to me after I was on hormones. loving hormones. Blessing and curse. Of course, my wife was like, "I realized I'd never be a mother years ago. Welcome to the club." We did not high five or fist bump. It's not that kind of club. Aleph Null fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 22:30
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Aleph Null posted:I'm not as familiar with the surgery to create neo-phalluses, but I understand they don't have a way to give a transman the ability to form a natural erection. What you get involves pumps, I think? You end up with something that passes a cursory inspection, but may create more issues than it solves because it will never be perfect or even average. To go along with cis autodrag's post and from a transmasc perspective, I get so tired of hearing these things from people with little familiarity with our options. Metiodioplasty uses natural erections to get hard. Yes, it's small. But having had the privilege to meet other trans men who have had the procedure done, it's been a very relieving thing for them. As for phalloplasty, yes, you can get a pump or you can get a malleable rod. They are not perfect, and they are not "natural" erections, but they still provide a massive amount of gender dysphoria relief. They do not "create more problems than they solve" for most of the trans men I've met. Yes, some of them had complications which needed to be corrected, but none of the men I've talked to were in any way regretful of their decision. It's not that difficult to find trans men talking about their experiences with phalloplasty or metiodioplasty online, so there is really no excuse for people to continue bad talking these options as much as they do. On top of that, you can't base you perception of phallo or meta based off a cursory Google image search, which I assume is what 99% of cis/non-transmasc people do. Overall, if you're not familiar with a procedure maybe you shouldn't be giving your opinion about it.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:35
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Gnossiennes posted:Overall, if you're not familiar with a procedure maybe you shouldn't be giving your opinion about it. True. I will be more careful and thoughtful.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:38
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Aleph Null posted:I guess the doctor I consulted with just didn't want to get my hopes up? That was just about exactly a year ago. You saw a bad surgeon. Go look at Brownstein Cranes website or find pictures of Dr Brassard's work to see what it's like when a practiced and experienced surgeon does it. Like any plastic surgery, it's as much about artistry and an aesthetic eye as it is surgical technique and this is what separates good from bad surgeons (how many lovely boob jobs do you see out there for every good one, for example?). Yes, you have to dilate to keep it from closing, but after the recovery period you only have to do that like once a week and only if you don't otherwise have sex or masturbate with penetration. It's not the albatross around the neck it gets exaggerated to. I also deal with dysphoria around child bearing. I get irrationally upset around pregnant people sometimes. Gender confirmation surgery can't fix that, but why pass on a surgery that can help some of my pain while waiting for one that can address other aspects of my pain? The fact remains that surgery isn't for everyone and many trans people are perfectly happy with what they've got in their pants already, but I don't want to see people miss out on a surgery that could really help them just because of horror stories spread by anti trans groups and results from bad unknown surgeons.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:44
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It isn't fair to look at worst case scenario outliers and places where people are just monsters to each other like Iran. Basically I think we're hosed up beyond reconciliation (as a whole) and the concept is one symptom of existing in a hosed up system. I'm not saying there isn't a hard genetic flag there, but how it effects you might be different... In a different environment. Sigh, I will stop harping my pointless hypothetical. It's just a daydream. I mean we ran right through to the finish line without saying it's okay for gay people to get married because it doesn't hurt anybody... It was "it's okay because they were born that way and didn't have a choice" until the last step. Which irritated me every step of the way. In hindsight, I was generous with my evaluation of progress on that front, too. If you accept somebody in your society for the wrong reasons it just kicks the can down the road to the next time. I expect fundamental changes in the way people think that will never happen on this largely religious, often uneducated rock. Edit: I don't have DM's on mobile, sorry. FantasticExtrusion fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Oct 18, 2017 |
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Oct 18, 2017 01:42
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cis autodrag posted:Your information is out of date and the idea that confirmation surgery results in a "fake" genital that doesn't work like the real thing is propaganda. I keep hearing conflicting information about neovaginas being self-cleaning. A lot of people say it isn't, and others say that it is after the first two months, while the proper bacteria get a foothold. Do you know where reliable information is to be had on that?
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Oct 18, 2017 13:00
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Vulpes Vvardenfell posted:I keep hearing conflicting information about neovaginas being self-cleaning. A lot of people say it isn't, and others say that it is after the first two months, while the proper bacteria get a foothold. Do you know where reliable information is to be had on that? To be honest I haven't seen much information either way on that one. I only know anecdotally that nobody I know who's got one complains about having to clean it, so they either don't or it's just not that big a deal given the benefits.
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Oct 18, 2017 18:37
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My understanding was that a portion of the inner lining of the intestines was used in order to provide a mucus membranes in the newer surgeries for vaginoplasty. I am not trans but have dated and been in relationships with people who were and that person was very well versed plus I just read a bunch on it.
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Oct 18, 2017 18:53
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Hollismason posted:My understanding was that a portion of the inner lining of the intestines was used in order to provide a mucus membranes in the newer surgeries for vaginoplasty. Some Thai surgeons do that but American surgeons consider it bad practice as you are disrupting the function of the digestive system to do that. If grafts are needed American surgeons tend to go for skin from the thigh. Edit: and as far as my two cents, medical tourism for complicated and dangerous procedures seems ill advised to me. Especially to a country where they call us ladyboys and the doctors assume we're getting the surgery to further our prostitution careers.
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Oct 18, 2017 19:03
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kathoey don't map onto our western ideas of gender and sexuality 1:1, which is something western activists, theorists, and even terfs fail to understand and appreciate. suffice to say; most kathoey don't identify as women but as a third gender, and consider ladyboy to be a proper translation of kathoey
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Oct 18, 2017 19:38
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