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precision posted:Many people don't think that 15-17 year olds are old enough to properly consent. Would you say the same thing about 15-17 year old girls who have "consensual" sex with (sometimes much) older men? Not a rhetorical question, just wondering. I mean hell, a whole lot of people get up in arms when older men and younger women get together even when they're in a location where it's absolutely legally above-board. There's not some sort of magical right answer. There's different ages of consent all across the world. The reason I even bring it up is that Takeis talked about his first experience and it was that type of situation. It's just something that's a weird statistical fact that gay men a fairly large portion have had that sort of relationship or experience. I think that's a lot of it though is there is most certainly a cycle of that and also at least in most studies gay men's definitely answer on the more nebulous side of consent.
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Nov 12, 2017 16:46
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Pasting my post in the genchat thread:Magic Hate Ball posted:I always feel really bad for the minors in these situations, not just because they were taken advantage of but because it so strongly underlines the really terrible effects a patriarchal and overall fearful culture has. When you're a teenager, you're already confused - look at the billions and billions of tv shows and movies and other crap that are about straight kids having a hard time finding themselves and dealing with romance in high school. But when you're a gay kid, not only are you dealing with the fear of coming out and being bullied and poo poo on and having your life in danger, but you often have no role models, no support, and an an absolutely crippled social life unless you happen to know lots of other gay kids, but you probably don't, so every feeling of attraction and romance is tied to a sense of hazard and utter uncertainty - not only are you not sure if the other person likes you back, but you're not even sure if they're literally capable of it, or of even having a reaction that isn't violently hostile. So you meet a gay teacher or a gay mailman or you go hitchhiking with a gay driver or go swimming with your gay cousin, and here's someone self-assured, knowing, and capable of providing guidance, and we've created a society where these people are the points of solace and comfort because we, as a society, push queer kids out through persistent xenophobia and cruelty that's repeated over and over and over and over in all sorts of media and through the brittle, horrible undertones of jingoistic anger that people develop and use in place of holistic kindness and cultural altruism, because it's much easier to come together as a group of hate, and that atmosphere is what creates a space forgiving to sexual abuse. It's not so much about the age of consent as it is about heternormativity and toxic masculinity creating a world where the only form of support and learning for a lot of queer kids is by being taken advantage of by an adult, which is why it's necessary to provide positive media reinforcement and an atmosphere that doesn't kill people.
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Nov 12, 2017 17:14
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kaworu posted:I'm sorry but that video really is misleading as hell No, it isn't. Knock this off.
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Nov 12, 2017 17:48
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Hollismason posted:There's not some sort of magical right answer. There's different ages of consent all across the world. I would presume it's because generally, people of a younger age group are less likely to be 'out' than older men are and so rather than experiment with their own age group and trying to navigate that minefield they enter into relationships with someone more experienced. A couple of gay men I know all said that their first real experience or encounter was with someone who was older, even if it wasn't drastically so.
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Nov 12, 2017 18:12
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Welp, Takei is on twitter blaming Russian Bots for pushing this story.
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Nov 12, 2017 18:16
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Magic Hate Ball posted:It's not so much about the age of consent as it is about heternormativity and toxic masculinity creating a world where the only form of support and learning for a lot of queer kids is by being taken advantage of by an adult, which is why it's necessary to provide positive media reinforcement and an atmosphere that doesn't kill people. I'm sure it is statistically possible to meet a gay mailman who will tell you that your life will be gravy without loving you in exchange for sharing his wisdom.
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Nov 12, 2017 18:20
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DrVenkman posted:I would presume it's because generally, people of a younger age group are less likely to be 'out' than older men are and so rather than experiment with their own age group and trying to navigate that minefield they enter into relationships with someone more experienced. A couple of gay men I know all said that their first real experience or encounter was with someone who was older, even if it wasn't drastically so. The onus of not loving a child typically rests on the adult.
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Nov 12, 2017 18:22
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One of the main plots of Queer as Folk was a 15 year olds relationship with someone who was in their late 20s, that kind for relationship is seen as perfectly normal for many gay men and I think that's part of the cycle. The problem is that sometimes those relationships are consensual and that makes people very uncomfortable and by the way I don't really think those are still appropriate event if there is consent. I think it has more to do with actual male or masculine toxicity and that's why we see that there really statistically speak straight and gay men both have problems with consent and appropriate behavior. I've literally had people tell me two men in a relationship cannot rape each other etc.. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 12, 2017 |
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Nov 12, 2017 18:29
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Pycckuu posted:Don't blame gay child molesters on the society or any of these new age liberal sensitivity catch phrases. It has nothing to do with being a man and everything to do with being a hosed up pedo. I don't know what kind of media reinforcement you need to say "loving kids is not ok," Law and Order SVU has been on air for over a decade now it seems. I'M SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE YOU loving rear end in a top hat
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Nov 12, 2017 18:34
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Yeah, I’ve got enough gay friends who were in those kind of relationships and its hosed them up real bad, because just like straight folks its pedophiles taking advantage of kids who aren’t old enough to know what the gently caress they’re doing or old enough to consent. poo poo isn’t magically okay and mentally undamaging just because its a man and a boy, instead of a man and a girl.
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Nov 12, 2017 18:35
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They're not saying it's okay, they're talking about why it happens.
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Nov 12, 2017 18:38
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Yeah, I was an idiot and misread it and went for a kneejerk post, my apologies.
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Nov 12, 2017 18:40
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Magic Hate Ball posted:I'M SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE YOU loving rear end in a top hat Take that up with your local PD, not a forum known for harboring pedophiles. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 12, 2017 18:55
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Hollismason posted:I didn't hear that what happened? Andrew Koenig, whom you might remember as Boner on Growing Pains, had a lifelong battle with depression. Back in 2010 or 2011, he suddenly went missing for almost two weeks, until his family found him hanging from a tree. The experience absolutely wrecked Walter Koenig, and he's basically filled the gap with going to conventions and doing bit parts in fan films and the like -- but, as I said, he's really slowed down and I don't expect him to last very long. He's a very broken man and photos of him from recent appearances are soul-crushing. 
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Nov 12, 2017 18:56
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Pycckuu posted:Take that up with your local PD, not a forum known for harboring pedophiles. Really? A lovely, snappy response? What the gently caress is wrong with you?
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Nov 12, 2017 18:59
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Pycckuu posted:Don't blame gay child molesters on the society or any of these new age liberal sensitivity catch phrases. It has nothing to do with being a man and everything to do with being a hosed up pedo. I don't know what kind of media reinforcement you need to say "loving kids is not ok," Law and Order SVU has been on air for over a decade now it seems. There is no contradiction between understanding the pathological causes of pedophilia and the apprehension that tolerance or acceptance of relationships between adults and adolescents/teenagers is a symptom of cultural and social ideology. For the vast majority of human history - and in many parts of our contemporary world - the right of adult men to sexually possess boys and girls has been framed as natural and even valued. Apprehension of this is not new agism, which you are not using correctly. It doesn't take a genius to notice that the same people defending Roy Moore are not only overtly distrustful of the relatively recent sociocultural premise that sexual possession of adult men of girls is predatory, but actually pine for a return to a fantasy of Palestinian patriarchy, in which such relationships are seen as essential to the preservation of conservative morality. These individuals are not isolated "hosed up" people. They are psychologically normal individuals in positions of political power and sociocultural influence.
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Nov 12, 2017 19:05
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https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2017/11/11/1714699/-Why-the-George-Takei-allegation-is-a-weak-case The defense of Takei. I honestly have no idea what to think now.
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Nov 12, 2017 19:05
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Hollismason posted:The problem is that sometimes those relationships are consensual and that makes people very uncomfortable and by the way I don't really think those are still appropriate event if there is consent. The problem is that society is too "sex positive" to tell people that things that are legal and consensual can still be psychologically harmful. You hear it all the time, as in "don't kinkshame". As a society, we should move towards the idea that things can feel good but be bad for you. To be less oblique and speak from experience: I have had sexual relations with a troubling number of women who were into some pretty dark poo poo in the bedroom. Rape roleplay, that kind of thing. Now to be clear, that sort of thing can be okay, but for it to be okay there has to be a gently caress ton of communication and understanding of where the bedroom stops and real life begins. But as time goes on, and especially with the advent of the Internet, people reinforce the troubling narrative that whatever you're into, "as long as it's not hurting anyone", is fine to do. The point that is missed so grandly is that it often is hurting the people doing it, and telling everyone "gently caress how you wanna gently caress and don't think about it" leads to some real problems outside the bedroom, problems that often manifest gradually and insidiously, even between people far over the "age of consent". "If it feels good, do it" was a joke of a mantra and it's disturbing when it's taken to heart so readily. A more appropriate saying would be "If it feels good, think about why it feels good". I have known dozens, maybe even hundreds, of men and women who had sex with older people while they were teenagers - including myself - and who said "But I liked it, so what's the big deal?" And to that I have only to say, "Look at how your relationships have formed and resolved; that is the big deal, and you need to think about it". It's a very difficult thing to talk about. Society prefers to slap the Band-Aid of "age of consent" laws on it and call it a day. To be clear, that's all that can or should be done legally, but that is only the beginning of the conversation, not the conclusion. Nobody wants to say or hear it, but there is such a thing as mentally healthy sex between older and younger people (to a point - of course nobody should be loving 14 year olds, probably not even other 14 year olds in many cases). And the opposite is true; nobody wants to say or hear it, but there is absolutely such a thing as mentally damaging sex between adults. Humans, in general, should think way more about the things they do and why they want to do them - not just when it comes to sex. That's the real issue. People do not like to talk about it in that way because it's hard - but enlightenment was never supposed to be easy.
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Nov 12, 2017 19:33
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precision posted:Humans, in general, should think way more about the things they do and why they want to do them - not just when it comes to sex. That's the real issue. People do not like to talk about it in that way because it's hard - but enlightenment was never supposed to be easy. But overall, your post is casting Hollywood's moral reckoning as a new problem rooted in progress as opposed to a very old problem revealed by progress.
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Nov 12, 2017 19:46
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Steve Yun posted:https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2017/11/11/1714699/-Why-the-George-Takei-allegation-is-a-weak-case
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Nov 12, 2017 19:46
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Timeless Appeal posted:The notion that bondage play is tied to having sex with children is frankly silly. I didn't intend for any of that to come across, so let me be clear that I was only speaking in broad general terms and not specifically speaking to these Hollywood monsters, nor was I saying that "vanilla" sex is "always okay". In fact, quite the opposite - any kind of sexual or romantic attachment can be "not okay". Apologies. e: In fact I take issue with the notion that any sex is or should be called "vanilla". I had thought I went into enough detail to make that clear, and if I didn't, again, apologies. This isn't E/N and I don't want to get even more specific about my own life and my sex life with my current partner, but trust when I say: I know that things are complicated. That was a central point of what I was attempting to communicate, in fact. precision fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Nov 12, 2017 |
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Nov 12, 2017 19:51
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One thing I wonder whether or not will come out is if there was funny business happening on the set of Nowhere Boy. Aaron Taylor-Johnson and Sam Taylor-Wood met when she cast him, he turned 18 during the film's production, and they announced their engagement a few months later at the movie's premiere -- when she was 42. Nothing about that seems right to me.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:04
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edit: Garbage post
Egbert Souse fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Nov 12, 2017 |
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Nov 12, 2017 20:25
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Who was it that said the first popular person to get accused starts putting doubt on everything? Because that's pretty on spot right now in the thread
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Nov 12, 2017 20:44
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DC Murderverse posted:https://twitter.com/thr/status/929169917131345920 Ohhh my.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:14
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Timby posted:One thing I wonder whether or not will come out is if there was funny business happening on the set of Nowhere Boy. Aaron Taylor-Johnson and Sam Taylor-Wood met when she cast him, he turned 18 during the film's production, and they announced their engagement a few months later at the movie's premiere -- when she was 42. I've been thinking about stuff like that, Courtney Stodden, Thora Birch and her parents, Scientology poo poo (esp. now that the Danny Masterson stuff coming out sounds absolutely horrific), etc. I mean, I don't know what to say about the more sensational stuff about pedo rings, but Hollywood is a youth-eating cult.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:18
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I've been thinking about stuff like that, Courtney Stodden, Thora Birch and her parents, Scientology poo poo (esp. now that the Danny Masterson stuff coming out sounds absolutely horrific), etc. I mean, I don't know what to say about the more sensational stuff about pedo rings, but Hollywood is a youth-eating cult. We could probably have a multipage thread derail about specifically the horror industry stories about how women are treated in that specific genre. There are some absolute total shitbags in the horror industry and it seems more concentrated than "mainstream" Hollywood.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:22
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Len posted:Who was it that said the first popular person to get accused starts putting doubt on everything? Because that's pretty on spot right now in the thread Nah. Nobody doubts the charges on Weinstein or Spacey or Louis CK just because they question the charges on Takei.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:28
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Hollismason posted:We could probably have a multipage thread derail about specifically the horror industry stories about how women are treated in that specific genre. There are some absolute total shitbags in the horror industry and it seems more concentrated than "mainstream" Hollywood. We can watch the film S&Man.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:33
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Follow-up question: how has there been NOTHING on Larry Clark in all this time? I would have expected that he'd be a smoking corpse on a stake in front of Mann's Chinese Theatre by now.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:37
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loving Larry Clark. There’s a guy that does a poor job of hiding his attraction to kids
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Nov 12, 2017 21:39
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Len posted:Who was it that said the first popular person to get accused starts putting doubt on everything? Because that's pretty on spot right now in the thread I don't like Takei that much. I liked Louis CK a lot and enjoyed almost all of Spacey's work, but I merely respected Takei a bit and thought he was a living email FW:FW:FW: joke. But I had the same thoughts that article brought up, and that was even before the  Russian spam bot stuff. It's the most he-said he-said situation out there, especially since it's one allegation from over thirty-five years ago. I'm not saying either one is or isn't lying, I'd never discount an alleged victim's story right off.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:42
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Super Fan posted:loving Larry Clark. There’s a guy that does a poor job of hiding his attraction to kids He doesn't hide it at all, I just think it may be that he hasn't actually acted on it.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:44
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Follow-up question: how has there been NOTHING on Larry Clark in all this time? I would have expected that he'd be a smoking corpse on a stake in front of Mann's Chinese Theatre by now. Larry Clark and Harmony Korine.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:44
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Super Fan posted:loving Larry Clark. There’s a guy that does a poor job of hiding his attraction to kids Harmony Korine?
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Nov 12, 2017 21:44
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Super Fan posted:loving Larry Clark. There’s a guy that does a poor job of hiding his attraction to kids He makes no attempt whatsoever to hide it. Another one I'm surprised hasn't been on the carpet yet is Luc Besson. Timby posted:Larry Clark and Harmony Korine. I don't know anything about Korine in that regard but his wife is like 25 years younger than him so I wouldn't be surprised.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:48
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Wasn’t Korine real young when he wrote Kids?
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Nov 12, 2017 21:48
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I don't know anything about Korine in that regard but his wife is like 25 years younger than him so I wouldn't be surprised. Between Kids, Gummo and Ken Park, dude's got something weird going on.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:50
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Korine wrote Kids when he was 17. I remember on the old Gummo dvd, there's a small featurette with an audio "interview" (he's just talking to himself) with Korine, where he said something along the lines of "sexually fantasizing about 12 year olds doesn't necessarily make you a bad person... but maybe I've said too much" and then it ended abruptly.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:55
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Super Fan posted:Wasn’t Korine real young when he wrote Kids? He was also real young when he met Larry Clark.
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Nov 12, 2017 21:59
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