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SpiritOfLenin posted:Ep 8: Man Billy is a nasty as gently caress villain. Just a complete and utter sociopath hiding behind his charm. I have two episodes left so I don't know if it comes up in the show, but Billy Russo is Jigsaw's real name in the comics
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Nov 18, 2017 16:31
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I think there are some real hit and miss moments, and there are times when they don’t exactly nail the tone, but those moments stand out precisely because of how well they nail it most of the time. The cinematography is great, the writing is better than most Marvel shows, and the characters are mostly really well-done and well-acted. One thing I read in multiple places before watching was that it seems weird that the show doesn’t mention the rest of the Marvel cinematic/TV creations at all. To be fair, I think you could do some interesting things on the theme of: what do the ordinary guys on the ground think about Captain America? What role does SHIELD play in the role on terror? But I appreciate what the show already does, and how grounded in real issues it is, that I can’t ask it to have space aliens show up. Edit: nael posted:I have two episodes left so I don't know if it comes up in the show, but Billy Russo is Jigsaw's real name in the comics I had forgotten this, but I accidentally saw it while looking up the actor and I wish I hadn’t gotten spoiled. 
Pirate Radar fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 16:32
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Cythereal posted:I suspect a big part of it may be that this is not the Punisher that seems to exist in the popular imagination. People die every episode, sure, and Frank is one scary motherfucker when he wants to be, but it's a tense, slow burn of a show that focuses on broken people, their pain, and their attempts to put their life back together. If you're not really paying attention, it's easy to dismiss this show as glorifying violence and guns or say well it's the Punisher show of course it's glorifying him and his approach to things. But it's not. The emotional meat of this show is delivered in silent looks, awkward, halting expressions of affection, and quietly mumbled admissions of pain and guilt. And I think for a lot of people, that's as far from the Punisher as you could ever imagine. It's the Punisher we need, but we get the Punisher we deserve in the comics (to cross the streams) I said it in the BSS TV Thread, this is a show about broken people doing broken things filtered through extreme PTSD. And it delivers on that premise in a beautifully horrifying way. Some the PTSD stuff hit me like a gut punch and I needed to walk away from the show for a while at times. I'm just starting on episode 11 and its really looking like everything that's been simmering for the first 10 episode is about to explode in a violent, chaotic mess. I have faith, but past Netflix shows have me worried that this could end on a wet fart of meaningless gun battles and fights with no stakes. All the violence and despair and suffering has had meaning and weight so far and I can't see them dropping the ball when it's come this far. But if they do, it will probably end up tainting the entire show for me.
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Nov 18, 2017 16:35
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Pirate Radar posted:To be fair, I think you could do some interesting things on the theme of: what do the ordinary guys on the ground think about Captain America? What role does SHIELD play in the role on terror? But I appreciate what the show already does, and how grounded in real issues it is, that I can’t ask it to have space aliens show up. But this is the stance of every Netflix Marvel show. They deliberately avoid all but the vaguest mention of the broader MCU to avert conflicts and unnecessary complications. And I still stand by the best Netflix stuff being regular human dramas about people who happen to be superheroes, rather than flat-out superhero narratives. Proteus Jones posted:I'm just starting on episode 11 and its really looking like everything that's been simmering for the first 10 episode is about to explode in a violent, chaotic mess. I have faith, but past Netflix shows have me worried that this could end on a wet fart of meaningless gun battles and fights with no stakes. All the violence and despair and suffering has had meaning and weight so far and I can't see them dropping the ball when it's come this far. But if they do, it will probably end up tainting the entire show for me. Take heart, the ending isn't perfect and it's not as strong as the earlier stuff–because seriously, how could it be—but it is satisfying and a long way from the dull farts that close out too many of the other shows. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 16:36
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The hardest-working member of the loving cast is Frank’s bulletproof vest
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Nov 18, 2017 16:39
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Pirate Radar posted:The hardest-working member of the loving cast is Frank’s bulletproof vest When he remembers to wear it, but I guess that's part of having a deathwish. On that note, they did a good job of showing that bulletproof doesn't mean immune. Every time the vest takes a hit Frank stumbles and groans like he just got kicked by a mule.
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Nov 18, 2017 16:41
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Pirate Radar posted:The cinematography is great, the writing is better than most Marvel shows, and the characters are mostly really well-done and well-acted. This is encouraging and I look forward to watching it. To a large extent, the Netflix Marvel shows that really succeed are due in no small part to the acting and the ones that miss seem to suffer terribly from bad performances. Even the middle of the road to decent ones like Luke Cage had really strong performances that bolstered them and Beranthal was a standout in DD amidst some really good actors.
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Nov 18, 2017 17:19
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I don't think Beranthal missed a single step the whole time. Every second, even during quiet scenes, he sells the image of a guy ruined by all the things he's seen and done. Rest of the cast all pull their weight too. I can't think of a real dud anywhere in the lineup.
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Nov 18, 2017 17:32
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My big problem with Daredevil, and this is just me and my thing, so your experience will vary, but drat, I just can't get over how much Charlie Cox looks like Will Forte. Others probably don't see it, and god bless 'em, but it's a distraction for me.
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Nov 18, 2017 17:49
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Mulva posted:no real glorification of violence Given that the sledgehammer kill scene is, what, episode 2? I think you've got a very odd definition of "glorification."
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Nov 18, 2017 19:45
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Falstaff posted:Given that the sledgehammer kill scene is, what, episode 2? I think you've got a very odd definition of "glorification." You honestly think this show is promoting all the vicious and brutal violence as praiseworthy and admirable? If anything the sledgehammer stuff is demeaning and dehumanizing in its brutality. Now, if you mean "gratuitous" I'd be more on board. Probably not convinced, but that would be an understandable view. Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 19:48
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Episode 11: Frank vs the kill team is way, way more brutal than I expected from a Marvel show. That would have fit in War Zone. Really well done.
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Nov 18, 2017 20:32
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Episode 11: Frank barely able to get out "I'm going... Home" at the end loving got me. Finished the show and I think it might be the best Netflix Marvel show and I just recently re-watched Daredevil S1 and Jessica Jones. The pacing to me was perfect and I honestly would not cut a second.
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Nov 18, 2017 20:48
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This is definitely the best MCU season of TV and I’m honestly kind of impressed by the extreme hotness of the sex scenes. I’ll effort post when I finish but I’m genuinely invested and it lacks all the bullshit that dragged down IF, Def and DD2 and this supporting cast just demolishes the other supporting casts by like an order of magnitude
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Nov 18, 2017 21:08
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Proteus Jones posted:You honestly think this show is promoting all the vicious and brutal violence as praiseworthy and admirable? In that case, yes? I'm only at episode three, but the sledgehammer kill scene is exciting and visceral with a bad-rear end soundtrack, and delivered to an eminently deserving victim that we, the audience, have come to despise. It even has Frank deliver a one-liner that's a call back to an earlier threat - i.e., just desserts. It's meant to get us to fist-pump and exclaim something to the effect of "gently caress, yeah!"
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Nov 18, 2017 21:37
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It also has a callback to the "a soldier falls in a hole" parable from earlier in the episode, which serves to underscore that Frank is definitely no longer a soldier. (The other fictional soldier jumps in and helps, while Frank kills people and throws a rope.)
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Nov 18, 2017 21:44
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Bad rear end soundtrack? Tom Waits' Hell Broke Luce is kinda like Kendrick Lamar's Swimming Pools. If you only pay attention to the chorus you're probably missing the point.
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Nov 18, 2017 21:45
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I'm only a few in, but really liking how it's not just gun violence and explosions. It succeeds at having a deep emotional core where most other Marvel Netflix shows haven't. Bernthal is great, and so is the supporting cast. Poor Paul Schulze though, always typecast as a bureaucratic rear end in a top hat. Madani keeps reminding me of Drew Barrymore. She's got the exact same lisp and cadence to her voice. Once I noticed it I couldn't shake it.
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Nov 18, 2017 21:47
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sticklefifer posted:Poor Paul Schulze though, always typecast as a bureaucratic rear end in a top hat. Just you wait. Given the chance, even William Shatner will take a careful step back from this guy when he starts hamming it up.
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Nov 18, 2017 21:48
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Falstaff posted:In that case, yes? I'm only at episode three, but the sledgehammer kill scene is exciting and visceral with a bad-rear end soundtrack, and delivered to an eminently deserving victim that we, the audience, have come to despise. It even has Frank deliver a one-liner that's a call back to an earlier threat - i.e., just desserts. It's meant to get us to fist-pump and exclaim something to the effect of "gently caress, yeah!" I guess I didn't see it that way, or maybe I'm remembering it through the filter of having seen 10 of the episodes already. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I guess I can understand how you see it that way. It's weird how two people can take it in completely different ways. Just had a thought, it could also be the fact that I'm so focused no the PTSD aspects of everyone that it overshadows the flavor of how everything is presented to me. Personally, blood coming from mouths and nostrils is a trigger for my own, and I feel mostly revulsion (and the shakes), so that colors things for me.
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Nov 18, 2017 21:51
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Pingiivi posted:Bad rear end soundtrack? Tom Waits' Hell Broke Luce is kinda like Kendrick Lamar's Swimming Pools. If you only pay attention to the chorus you're probably missing the point. Yeah, it's about a marine who killed himself as the result of his PTSD, it's a pretty thematically appropriate song.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:03
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Was anyone at all surprised that Billy turns out to be evil. I mean, the guy runs a private military in a comic book show. I was just waiting for the reveal for the entirety of those first few episodes, when he still seemed like a decent guy.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:11
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What is the song they play during Frank's clearing an evac route?
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Nov 18, 2017 22:11
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Hell Broke Luce is about how shattering the experience of war is- it's not an ooh rah "America gently caress Yeah" song. Kind of like how people always mistake Born in the USA with being a patriotic song. Listen to the words, they're both about how hosed up war and the military are. Granted, it has a great bass beat, but the song and the scene were far from glorifying Frank and his actions. That's why the song is a perfect fit for Frank. He's a hosed up person that can't handle adverse situations without going crazy and murdering people in horrible ways.. If you watch Frank bash someone's face in with a sledgehammer and say "gently caress yeah!" instead of "jesus that's horrifying" then you got the wrong message. Frank and the show have no delusions that he's a good person or even doing good things.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:13
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nael posted:Was anyone at all surprised that Billy turns out to be evil. I mean, the guy runs a private military in a comic book show. I was just waiting for the reveal for the entirety of those first few episodes, when he still seemed like a decent guy. He's Frank's archnemesis in the comics, so no. The ending explicitly sets up him becoming Jigsaw - normally Frank just shoves him face-first out a window and forgets about him until he turns up later as Jigsaw.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:13
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I figured that out by the end. The name didn't really register with me until episode 10 or so, and then the ending cemented it.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:15
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nael posted:Was anyone at all surprised that Billy turns out to be evil. I mean, the guy runs a private military in a comic book show. I was just waiting for the reveal for the entirety of those first few episodes, when he still seemed like a decent guy. Not really If you didn't already know from the comics that Billy Russo is Jigsaw, Google ruins it if you search for "Punisher Cast".  Thanks, Google
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Nov 18, 2017 22:16
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I'll guess I'll try to reserve my judgement until I finish watching the rest of the series, but so far it seems pretty solidly pro-violence (but anti-war). I really don't see how any piece of art could be anti-violence if it's also making the violence exciting and cool.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:18
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Falstaff posted:I'll guess I'll try to reserve my judgement until I finish watching the rest of the series, but so far it seems pretty solidly pro-violence (but anti-war). I really don't see how any piece of art could be anti-violence if it's also making the violence exciting and cool. You seem to be the *only* one here finding it exciting and cool. You divorce it from the narrative which seems disingenuous. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now it seems that you're making the argument that the violence is done for titillation, when thematically it's done to show how damaged and broken Frank is.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:23
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Ep 13 I literally shouted "OH gently caress" when Frank ground Russo's face on the mirror. The screams really cemented how hosed up it was. Jesus. 
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Nov 18, 2017 22:25
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I think you'll find that is sort of the point. We glorify violence because while it is happenning it is very stimulating and overwhelming and it's amazingly easy to get excited about violence, like the scene where the dad is watching boxing. And then the immediate and continuous aftermath of violence is horrifying and breaks people. The Punisher is telling a story about violence, and if you view all the brutality as glorified, just mute the show and watch without listening, because everyone's face is constantly full of abject terror as they bleed out.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:25
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I think it's hard to show certain kinds of violence without glorifying it in the moment. It's easy to make torture or cold blooded murder come across as horrible and uncomfortable, but is it even possible to make a fight scene or a shootout that doesn't make it look exciting? It's the aftermath and the narrative around it that gives it context.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:30
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Proteus Jones posted:You seem to be the *only* one here finding it exciting and cool. You divorce it from the narrative which seems disingenuous. Eh. I think it can be both. If you're just watching it for the action, Punisher does have some genuinely visceral, thrilling stuff - episodes 5 and 11 come to mind. That's taking the violence completely out of context, but that's nothing new for reviewers of any media.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:31
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Proteus Jones posted:You seem to be the *only* one here finding it exciting and cool. Ugly In The Morning posted:Came here to post this. quote:You divorce it from the narrative which seems disingenuous. Yeah, I might be, because as I said I'm only on episode 3. I can only offer my honest reactions to things as I encounter them, and maybe when I can ruminate on the totality of the narrative then I might feel differently. That said, I'm not judging the series based on the scene in question, at least not on a moral level. My favourite moment in DDS1 is the brutal hallway fight, so I've got no problems with violence in shows (at least, not most types of violence.)
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Nov 18, 2017 22:36
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wrapped up watching Punisher season one today, felt like it kind of dragged in the early-to-middle episodes, wanted more of Castle busting heads and less of awkward dad relationship stuff overall I enjoyed it though, hell of a last 2 episodes as well
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Nov 18, 2017 22:37
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nael posted:Was anyone at all surprised that Billy turns out to be evil. I mean, the guy runs a private military in a comic book show. I was just waiting for the reveal for the entirety of those first few episodes, when he still seemed like a decent guy. I was hoping it wasn't true, but ehhhhh.
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Nov 18, 2017 23:00
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JawKnee posted:less of awkward dad relationship stuff You crazy. That stuff was great. Bernthal, Newman, and Moss-Bachrach crushed those scenes. Hell, even the kids were good. Edit: The show also needed that stuff, because: the moment when Castle puts his revenge on hold to save Micro's family its the first clear sign we get that he's not completely gone. Without that hook, Castle is barely better than the people he's fighting. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 23:12
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sure, I just wanted less of that, and more ultraviolence
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Nov 18, 2017 23:14
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Skippy McPants posted:You crazy. That stuff was great. Bernthal, Newman, and Moss-Bachrach crushed those scenes. Hell, even the kids were good. Have to admit, early on I was kinda hoping that this would be the first and last Punisher series on Netflix, that Micro would die and Frank would move in with Sarah and the kids - Frank's relationship with all of them felt incredibly believable as people bonding over similar feelings of loss and Frank clearly being accepted by the kids as a potential stepdad. Not typically into guys, but Joe Berenthal's rugged handsomeness, charisma, and his brooding hurt as Frank.
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Nov 18, 2017 23:15
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Just stated ep 5, here — I’m not really reading the thread yet ‘cause I’m trying to avoid spoilers. God drat I’m liking the Punisher/Micro dynamic. Bernthal I expected to be great based off DD2, but I wasn’t prepared for how good a job Moss-Bachrach is doing. Kudos to both of them, and I hope the awesome keeps up!
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