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Cythereal posted:Have to admit, early on I was kinda hoping that this would be the first and last Punisher series on Netflix, that Micro would die and Frank would move in with Sarah and the kids - Frank's relationship with all of them felt incredibly believable as people bonding over similar feelings of loss and Frank clearly being accepted by the kids as a potential stepdad. I was kind of worried there would be a scene where Frank and Sarah have sex while micro watches from his lair. But instead Micro gets drunk and shows Frank his dick. Which is pretty cool.
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Nov 18, 2017 23:27
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nael posted:I was kind of worried there would be a scene where Frank and Sarah have sex while micro watches from his lair. But instead Micro gets drunk and shows Frank his dick. Which is pretty cool. I was hoping Frank would destroy the cameras because that's loving creepy, Micro. Then again, I didn't like Micro in general. I feel he's a legit rear end in a top hat even if he has basically good reasons for much of what he does.
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Nov 18, 2017 23:30
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Cythereal posted:I was hoping Frank would destroy the cameras because that's loving creepy, Micro. Micro is fine. I'm not finished yet so I dunno for 100% sure, but I doubt anyone here is perfect.
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Nov 18, 2017 23:40
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Falstaff posted:Yeah, I might be, because as I said I'm only on episode 3. I can only offer my honest reactions to things as I encounter them, and maybe when I can ruminate on the totality of the narrative then I might feel differently. I stand by my intense enthusiasm for media featuring Tom Waits.
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Nov 18, 2017 23:59
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I stand by my intense enthusiasm for media featuring Tom Waits. Does that include The Dark Knight?
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Nov 19, 2017 00:04
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Cythereal posted:Then again, I didn't like Micro in general. I feel he's a legit rear end in a top hat even if he has basically good reasons for much of what he does. Micro is good. He did the right thing, and I wouldn't even say he was nieve about it. He thought he'd handed the Kandahar tape off to someone who could do what needed doing, but he underestimated how deep the corruption went and got in over his head. And he's only an rear end in a top hat to Frank, but that's because Frank is an rear end in a top hat. Do remember that Castle spent the first couple days of their relationship torturing the guy. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Nov 19, 2017 |
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Nov 19, 2017 00:13
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Skippy McPants posted:Micro is good. He did the right thing, and I wouldn't even say he was nieve about it. He thought he'd handed the Kandahar tape off to someone who could do what needed doing, but he underestimated how deep the corruption went and got in over his head. And he's only an rear end in a top hat to Frank, but that's because Frank is an rear end in a top hat. Do remember that Castle spent the first couple days of their relationship torturing the guy. Because Micro wanted to use Frank as his own personal hitman in his private little war and Frank declined to be used like that.
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Nov 19, 2017 00:15
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NecroMonster posted:Micro is fine. I'm not finished yet so I dunno for 100% sure, but I doubt anyone here is perfect. The closest is Frank's corpsman friend, who is legit a pretty great guy.
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Nov 19, 2017 00:15
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Cythereal posted:Because Micro wanted to use Frank as his own personal hitman in his private little war and Frank declined to be used like that. What? No. Micro wanted help, but Castle tortured him because he thought it was a game or a trap. Also, it was Castle who set the terms "we kill them all." Micro just wanted his life back, a life that got stolen from him through no fault of his own. He would have been just as happy to see Agent Orange exposed, or in jail, or whatever.
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Nov 19, 2017 00:20
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I stand by my intense enthusiasm for media featuring Tom Waits. I mean, I don't think he's saying it was a bad scene. I think it was expertly done, but it absolutely is a glorification of violence portrayed as some reason noble enough for Frank to dip back into being Frank and all. Like, a dude kicking a guy's food and threatening to fight him over overtime while constantly calling him retarded going from 'rear end in a top hat bully' to 'actually about to murder in a brutal and violent way because his mob robbery went bad' is a puppy kick and mustache twirl away from just putting a sign over his head reading "JUSTIFIABLE VIOLENCE". That's how nearly all the bad guys Frank faces are, too, to make it not absolutely disgusting to watch a mentally ill man gun down people they have to make nearly every villain just a cartoon. Except Jigsaw, they do a solid job with him, as they should. The show is good, I'd for sure rank it with the extremely good side of things like DD season 1 and JJ and Luke Cage, but they absolutely want to play both sides of the 'war is bad and violence eats at your soul' and 'but fuuuuuck isn't it satisfying to watch a bad guy's face get blasted off yeeeeea gently caress that guy' conflict.
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Nov 19, 2017 00:23
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Cythereal posted:Because Micro wanted to use Frank as his own personal hitman in his private little war and Frank declined to be used like that. 'everyone dies, no trials,' was literally Frank's one condition to join him. Micro explicitly talks about how freaked out by violence he is an episode later. It's not like he expected Frank to hug and cuddle the guys who hosed them over but this was super not 'personal hitman'.
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Nov 19, 2017 00:26
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sexpig by night posted:The show is good, I'd for sure rank it with the extremely good side of things like DD season 1 and JJ and Luke Cage, but they absolutely want to play both sides of the 'war is bad and violence eats at your soul' and 'but fuuuuuck isn't it satisfying to watch a bad guy's face get blasted off yeeeeea gently caress that guy' conflict. Agreed. They do a good job showcasing costs of violence, but they also revel in it. Not always, but there are definitely moments where it feels like the show is serving two diametrically opposed positions to the detriment of both. I don't think it undermines the show, though, and I'd say they struck about the best balance you could ever hope for when telling a Punisher story.
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Nov 19, 2017 00:28
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sexpig by night posted:'everyone dies, no trials,' was literally Frank's one condition to join him. Micro explicitly talks about how freaked out by violence he is an episode later. It's not like he expected Frank to hug and cuddle the guys who hosed them over but this was super not 'personal hitman'. I got the impression that Micro was absolutely on board with killing the people responsible, he just didn't want to be personally involved in the fighting. He and Frank repeatedly talk about that - Micro wants to stay far from the action and just direct Frank.
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Nov 19, 2017 00:30
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Cythereal posted:I got the impression that Micro was absolutely on board with killing the people responsible, he just didn't want to be personally involved in the fighting. He and Frank repeatedly talk about that - Micro wants to stay far from the action and just direct Frank. He's on board with it because he knows there aren't any other realistic options. The point is that it's not what he wants. Killing everyone is Castle's endgame, Micro just wants his family safe and whole. And he doesn't like getting directly involved because he knows he's no fighter. The first time he tries to take some initiative he fucks it up horribly by ramming Madani's car. But after that, every time he does need to step up, like when he saves Castle in the woods or goes to meet his daughter, he does it. He's not a coward, he's just horrendously out of his depth. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Nov 19, 2017 |
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Nov 19, 2017 00:36
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Cythereal posted:I got the impression that Micro was absolutely on board with killing the people responsible, he just didn't want to be personally involved in the fighting. He and Frank repeatedly talk about that - Micro wants to stay far from the action and just direct Frank. I mean yea obviously he's not OPPOSED to it, he did reach out to Frank 'literally only good at murder' Castle. It's just a bit much to call it a 'hitman' deal when Frank was the one who had to go to 'alright but everyone dies' and Micro was clearly caught off guard by that before agreeing. Yea dude for sure is a-okay with being the 'missile guidance system' for Frank to kill people but that seemed to be more of a possible option he was fine with than the thing he was thinking of when he first called Frank. Skippy McPants posted:Agreed. They do a good job showcasing costs of violence, but they also revel in it. Not always, but there are definitely moments where it feels like the show is serving two diametrically opposed positions to the detriment of both. I don't think it undermines the show, though, and I'd say they struck about the best balance you could ever hope for when telling a Punisher story. Yea in fairness I don't know how you tell a Punisher story without having him do violence to bad people. Like, even the most intense and serious looks at Frank's broken mind have moments that least dip near 'but yea we can't pretend like you're as bad as the gun running terrorists who murdered kids with chemical weapons or whatever other over the top thing happened a few issues ago we can't retcon away right away'. I think the show does it as well as can be done. Unless they wanted to go EXTREMELY radical it had to be this way and they worked with the tools they had. The actors are great, the writing team clearly are fans, it was a very good show. Let's just not pretend 'but yea it did kinda try to use both sides of its mouth' is some bonkers argument.
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Nov 19, 2017 00:36
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Castle isn't meant to be a good guy
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Nov 19, 2017 00:46
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sexpig by night posted:Yea in fairness I don't know how you tell a Punisher story without having him do violence to bad people. Like, even the most intense and serious looks at Frank's broken mind have moments that least dip near 'but yea we can't pretend like you're as bad as the gun running terrorists who murdered kids with chemical weapons or whatever other over the top thing happened a few issues ago we can't retcon away right away'. I think what clinched it for me was the start of Ep. 12: we the audience knew for quite a while that Castle was the one who killed Ahmad Zubair, and I was seriously worried they weren't going to confront that. But then during the interviews Castle tells Madani flat that it was him, that he's directly complicit. It drives home that, while he sure as poo poo didn't deserve to have his whole family murdered, Frank is not a righteous dispenser of 'true' justice. JawKnee posted:Castle isn't meant to be a good guy No, but character's like Castle fall into poe's law territory real easily if you're not careful. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Nov 19, 2017 |
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Nov 19, 2017 00:50
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Yeah I always thought of Castle as a guy that genuinely enjoys violence, and that after he came back from the war he gladly used his family's deaths as an excuse to kill people who were more or less "acceptable targets" so he can feel like a hero. It stopped being about avenging his family a long time ago.
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Nov 19, 2017 00:50
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Violence being an awful, horrible thing that leaves people broken mentally and physically in its wake and violence sometimes being necessary and committing acts of violence sometimes feeling empowering and exciting aren't diametrically opposed viewpoints, these are all aspects of violence. Violence is humanities oldest and most fluent language. The show isn't being schizophrenic or contradicting itself, it's being truthful and realistic. This poo poo is painful and complicated.
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Nov 19, 2017 00:53
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nael posted:Yeah I always thought of Castle as a guy that genuinely enjoys violence, and that after he came back from the war he gladly used his family's deaths as an excuse to kill people who were more or less "acceptable targets" so he can feel like a hero. It stopped being about avenging his family a long time ago. Frank talks about that in this show, actually. He says that he's always had two families - his wife and kids, and his buddies. Frank tells Micro outright that he regrets how there were times at home when he desperately wanted to be overseas with his buddies, even in horrific combat, than putting up with his wife and kids driving him up the wall. Frank says in hindsight he regrets feeling like that and wishes he'd appreciated his family more when he had them.
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Nov 19, 2017 00:54
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I think it was essential that the show spends a significant amount of time and effort going after the Chris Kyle-style interpretation of the Punisher character. It doesn't fix the problem with the show that's shared with war movies where regardless of how hosed up you make the depictions of war, some people will still go "BADASS!", but the show would be pretty irredeemable in my eyes without trying to explicitly go after the extreme right interpretation of the Punisher, especially with the prevalence of that fandom in police and military circles and this show's focus on soldiers and their lives.
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Nov 19, 2017 01:05
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The thing that frustrates me about the show is that alleges is to be about powerful institutions, but those institutions are completely destroyed by any plot character at anytime. When Frank fights through the wilderness, he’s winged by the team of generic soldiers, he’s imperiled by the named soldier. The same thing happens Cyrus, Wilson or Modani have to face more than one opponent. It’s especially egregious in the Rashomon episode. I feel like the doll factory fight was the only time when two sides are equal but that’s because they were named characters on both sides. It’s true to comic book Punisher, but it struck me weird that a show about the consequences of violence has so many generic mooks. On the plus side, I like how bad the Punisher is at negotiating, providing psychiatric support or arguing from a position of weakness. That felt awesome to me, a lesser sure I would’ve made him more persuasive because of his trauma. Golden Bee fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Nov 19, 2017 |
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Nov 19, 2017 01:10
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Golden Bee posted:On the plus side, I like how bad the Punisher is at negotiating, providing psychiatric support or arguing from a position of weakness. That felt awesome to me, a lesser sure I would’ve made him more persuasive because of his trauma. The part where he held a knife to the neck of a little kid was definitely one of those "whoa there Frankie boy, maybe take it down a notch, yeah?" moments. Also, minor note, did anyone else notice that a handful of the mooks Castle blew through were women? I'm having a hard time thinking of another comic book adaptation that's done that. Aside from Blade, which I wouldn't count since they're all vampires. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Nov 19, 2017 |
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Nov 19, 2017 01:15
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Skippy McPants posted:The part where he held a knife to the neck of a little kid was definitely one of those "whoa there Frankie boy, maybe take it down a notch, yeah?" moments. I thought there was a good representation of female soldiers considering one of the themes of the show is one woman versus the structure trying to tell her no.
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Nov 19, 2017 01:28
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Golden Bee posted:The reaction was perhaps the best part of the show! Completely unexpected. Attention's never drawn to it, but there's also a couple of women at the veterans' support group.
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Nov 19, 2017 01:31
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There's also the fact the highest ranking authority we ever see is also a woman.
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Nov 19, 2017 01:57
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It was also cool that in a story all about the fallout from US foreign policy in the Middle East, the most important woman in the story is the child of two Iranian refugees.
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Nov 19, 2017 02:02
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And she is not only the hottest woman in any of the casts, she is far and away the most competent law enforcement official we’ve had in the MCU to date
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Nov 19, 2017 02:09
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Bust Rodd posted:she is far and away the most competent law enforcement official we’ve had in the MCU to date is that a compliment or an indictment?
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Nov 19, 2017 02:11
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Bust Rodd posted:And she is not only the hottest woman in any of the casts, she is far and away the most competent law enforcement official we’ve had in the MCU to date Hey, black NYPD detective guy seems pretty competent! Perpetually stuck with the poo poo details, but competent.
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Nov 19, 2017 02:12
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It's impossible not to "glorify" violence in some sense just because our brains are wired to animal out and be like "oh poo poo look at that poo poo" and drill it home to pay attention, and it's equally hard to have a protagonist use violence in some way or another and have us not empathize with him. that being said I don't think the show does a particularly good job of trying to open up a dialogue about war and violence either, but it's a comic book show about The Punisher, I was actually hoping for a lot more gun-porn shootouts. I was hoping to see Frank ambush people with jars full of nails and gunpowder, approaching situations like when you actively try to fail Hitman levels in a badass manner. but I did like it, for all the complaining i've been doing about it. It's a good watch.
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Nov 19, 2017 03:13
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Something I just realized is that Frank literally doesn’t know how to engage people without violence. Look at the scene with Micro’s son, or even the way he ‘introduces’ himself to Sarah. It’s literally his only method
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Nov 19, 2017 03:37
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Almost done, and I've realized this takes place in a universe where rubbing alcohol doesn't exist and everyone disinfects their wounds with liquor.
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Nov 19, 2017 03:52
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Bust Rodd posted:Something I just realized is that Frank literally doesn’t know how to engage people without violence. Look at the scene with Micro’s son, or even the way he ‘introduces’ himself to Sarah. It’s literally his only method Counterpoint: Micro's daughter, all the VA people, Dinah, Karen.
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Nov 19, 2017 03:54
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nael posted:Almost done, and I've realized this takes place in a universe where rubbing alcohol doesn't exist and everyone disinfects their wounds with liquor. A good universe, then!
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Nov 19, 2017 03:55
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nael posted:Almost done, and I've realized this takes place in a universe where rubbing alcohol doesn't exist and everyone disinfects their wounds with liquor. can't have a cool gun man story without dramatic dumpings of whiskey and such onto wounds. That wasn't sarcasm, considering my other posts and all, I genuinely love that dumb trope.
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Nov 19, 2017 04:07
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sexpig by night posted:can't have a cool gun man story without dramatic dumpings of whiskey and such onto wounds. I love that dumb trope too, I just thought it was really funny after like, the third separate instance.
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Nov 19, 2017 04:11
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Bust Rodd posted:Look at the scene with Micro’s son, or even the way he ‘introduces’ himself to Sarah. It’s literally his only method I think he misread the kid as a sociopathic and pain's a good way to sell deceptions.
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Nov 19, 2017 04:32
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Accretionist posted:I think he misread the kid as a sociopathic and pain's a good way to sell deceptions. or he's a hammer looking for nails
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Nov 19, 2017 04:35
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Accretionist posted:I think he misread the kid as a sociopathic and pain's a good way to sell deceptions. Or he's trying to show some tough love and scare him straight.
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Nov 19, 2017 04:36
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