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Shoot bajor into the sun
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Nov 19, 2017 11:36
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Is it just me or did that "Bajor must stand alone" line never really deliver? Like I get it kept them out of the war, kinda? I dunno, just expected a more concrete payoff
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Nov 19, 2017 11:44
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shadow puppet of a posted:Yeah, 23rd century humans so tied to religion, clan feuds, dustbowl farm strife, chasing the gubmint off their land, building contraptions out of wood, clinging to memories lost wars and terrible local alcohol. Honestly that does describe every human who isn't Claire, Vash, Sisko Sr, or in Starfleet.
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Nov 19, 2017 13:02
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The General posted:Ah yes, the humans. Hillbillies of the galaxy. Robert Picardo as super smug Alarra's dad was fantastic. God he plays an arrogant prick so loving well. That whole episode was solid actually. I'm incredibly impressed with the quality of writing coming from Orville.
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Nov 19, 2017 15:14
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When Star trek died it's katra went into the Orville
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Nov 19, 2017 18:18
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When is STD coming back? And is the Orville having a a full 20 or so episode season?
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Nov 21, 2017 18:02
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Orville has about two episodes left I think
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Nov 21, 2017 18:05
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Nov 21, 2017 18:10
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STD comes back in January I think
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Nov 21, 2017 18:13
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simplefish posted:Is it just me or did that "Bajor must stand alone" line never really deliver? Like I get it kept them out of the war, kinda? I dunno, just expected a more concrete payoff That was a pretty big payoff for the Bajorans. Every time the station went to red alert the hallways were littered waist deep with Bajoran security officers. If they can't handle Quark's replicator malfunctioning a single Jem'Hadar would commit genocide.
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Nov 21, 2017 18:13
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VictorianQueerLit posted:That was a pretty big payoff for the Bajorans. Every time the station went to red alert the hallways were littered waist deep with Bajoran security officers. If they can't handle Quark's replicator malfunctioning a single Jem'Hadar would commit genocide. they couldn't stop the single child jem'hadar in that one episode and then in the one where they destroy the gateway we see that a strike team blew up an entire pylon just to steal "photonic amplifiers" i.e., flashlights
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Nov 21, 2017 18:53
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Watched the DS9 episode about the dandruff refugees. Federation offers to fully set them up on a paradise planet of their own. But they decide Bajor is their promised land and because they "are farmers" it means they have the magical ability to fix up a huge peninsula the cardassians poisoned. Bajor says they can barely feed them selves and are in shambles and don't have the resources to help them once their polluted dust farming from scratch strategy doesn't work out. At no point do these dandruff people ever produce any evidence for their land-reclamation technology, not even an anecdote that they restored a very similar ecosystem. It's just "we're farmers!!" and their pure faith in farming ruined alien soil in an alien ecosystem they know nothing about without any initial crop failures or problems will solve everything. Bajor says no, go to the federation paradise planet instead, and they do, while shaming Bajor for being paranoid and fearful. I don't know what the message of this episode was because the provisional government seemed pretty reasonable. Their own planet is in shambles and like 6 million refugees declare they'll do fine and not need anyone's help building up cities and farms from scratch in an area they know to be unfarmable due to cardassians loving it up?? Also how is Bajor still in shambles? Is the Federation not helping them with even the basics? Give them a few dozen industrial replicators and some ready-to-run fusion generators and get their poo poo sorted in like a year tops. They're courting the Bajorans for membership yet don't seem to be offering any aid throughout the show.
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Nov 21, 2017 19:25
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Baronjutter posted:Also how is Bajor still in shambles? Is the Federation not helping them with even the basics? Give them a few dozen industrial replicators and some ready-to-run fusion generators and get their poo poo sorted in like a year tops. They're courting the Bajorans for membership yet don't seem to be offering any aid throughout the show. There are some variables outside of the technology and support available. The Federation gave the Bajorans really advanced farming equipment and they immediately entered a civil war with armed militias roaming the mountains and had a coup attempt all over who gets to use it first.
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Nov 21, 2017 19:30
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Baronjutter posted:Also how is Bajor still in shambles? Is the Federation not helping them with even the basics? Give them a few dozen industrial replicators and some ready-to-run fusion generators and get their poo poo sorted in like a year tops. They're courting the Bajorans for membership yet don't seem to be offering any aid throughout the show. 2) Hard to provide 'the basics' when you first need them to stop killing eachother over women, blankets and soil reclimators 3) They'd be bombed within a week by some faction of the Kohn-ma. 4) Preventing a mental patient from harming themselves is the most difficult form of aid to provide and hard to appreciate from the outside. But it is what must be provided first before you can start on shelter, clothing, water, food, education and industry. Your problems are twofold. You presume that the class of Bajoran given a permit to travel to the station represents all Bajorans living below. They do not. That is like judging all humans from watching one Miss Universe Pageant. Secondly, you have swallowed up Bajoran propaganda that Cardassia was an invasion force of occupation, rather than a charity mission of mercy. Gul Dukat had these same problems and was trying every solution he could. Your presumption that the Bajorans are capable of receiving help is preventing you from understanding that the help they did receive was all that could be given. Its the same as how you can't hand out fine silverware to prison inmates, even though it would give a clueless observer the impression that you are increasing their quality of life. shadow puppet of a fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Nov 21, 2017 |
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Nov 21, 2017 19:34
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Baronjutter posted:Watched the DS9 episode about the dandruff refugees. At least in DS9, replicators and other high end Federation tech seem to be the carrot in order to get other civilizations to join them. Starfleet is basically looking down at Bajor from their ivory starships saying "you can be post-scarcity too, just as soon as you make your planet arable again and start producing enough food to feed your populace." I really like the concept that living a nearly conflict-free existence due to technology making post-scarcity possible makes Federation citizens unempathetic to the realities of 'developing' species and I'm glad DS9 explored that even if just a little.
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Nov 21, 2017 19:37
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shadow puppet of a posted:1) Because its full of Bajorans. Gul Dukat parachute account spotted.
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Nov 21, 2017 19:45
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You give a starving Bajoran wood and brass to build farm tools and they'll instead waste them all trying to create lightships. You give a thirsty Bajoran clay to line an aqueduct and they'll instead fire up thousands of ceremonial relationship-breakup smashing cups. You give a cold Bajoran a bolt of cloth to wrap around them in winter and they'll instead plunge a knife through the throat of those not in the cloth-wearer d'jarra. You give an ignorant Bajoran a mathematical education to allow them to teach their children and they'll instead race off to spin the dabo wheel.
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Nov 21, 2017 19:46
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popewiles posted:At least in DS9, replicators and other high end Federation tech seem to be the carrot in order to get other civilizations to join them. Starfleet is basically looking down at Bajor from their ivory starships saying "you can be post-scarcity too, just as soon as you make your planet arable again and start producing enough food to feed your populace." Their society almost collapsed because some guy fell out of a wormhole and started telling everyone they should be a strict caste based society where your job is based on your family name. The Federation was right to be wary of including them. How long before the entire Federation is at war because a Bajoran priestess decided to stab a Romulan diplomat in the face because she didn't like how his ears felt?
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Nov 21, 2017 19:56
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At least they aren't Bolians
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Nov 21, 2017 20:21
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VictorianQueerLit posted:Their society almost collapsed because some guy fell out of a wormhole and started telling everyone they should be a strict caste based society where your job is based on your family name. You make the mistake of assuming I believe the Bajorans deserve to be members of the Federation, when actually I think someone should have slapped a "No Bajorans" sign on the station's exterior (Kira can stay because 'Bajorans' means more than one).
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Nov 21, 2017 20:27
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popewiles posted:You make the mistake of assuming I believe the Bajorans deserve to be members of the Federation, when actually I think someone should have slapped a "No Bajorans" sign on the station's exterior (Kira can stay because 'Bajorans' means more than one). Fine, but only if it also requires that Kira has to board the Yangtzee Kiang and wait it out in orbit should Ensign Ro ever choose to visit.
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Nov 21, 2017 20:31
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That Bajoran arbiter who was the same actress as Kevin Uxbridge's wife can stay. As can Kai Opaca. And Kai Risdoll.
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Nov 21, 2017 20:31
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Notice that in the early seasons of DS9 you actually still see plenty of bajorans without earrings? As if there's some actual secular bajorans out there? They all but vanish in the later seasons, every single bajoran extra gets an earing. Wonder if this becomes a sort of "flag pin" issue where non-observant bajorans get shamed to hell.
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Nov 21, 2017 20:34
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I thought STD was ok, I liked Michael, Tilly and Stamets. I would hardly call it grimdark, though it gets a bit more up-beat. And I'm a bit intrigued where they are going with this. Was the whole of S1 just a setup for Voyager 2? 
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Nov 21, 2017 20:43
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Captain Scandinaiva posted:And I'm a bit intrigued where they are going with this. Was the whole of S1 just a setup for Voyager 2? If so, they missed a trick by not going out of their way to state a specific, finite number of shuttles and torpedoes on and-- that they go on to ignore with flagrant abandon in the rest of the series.
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Nov 21, 2017 20:54
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Continuity is WAY too confusing!!!!!
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Nov 21, 2017 20:55
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shadow puppet of a posted:1) Because its full of Bajorans. Why don't you have a seat over there. Would you like a glass of K'narr, Legate?
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Nov 21, 2017 21:15
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Pac-Manioc Root posted:If so, they missed a trick by not going out of their way to state a specific, finite number of shuttles and torpedoes on and-- that they go on to ignore with flagrant abandon in the rest of the series. True, but that could yet be. Like the number of jumps Stamets is forced to make, now that he can't go to the opera with his boyfriend.
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Nov 21, 2017 21:51
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S2E8- Lily: He can't possibly make 958 jumps while we're inside a quasar nebula, it'll kill him! Lorca: It's not a suggestion, it's an order! *fiddles with pad behind his back*
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Nov 21, 2017 21:54
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shadow puppet of a posted:Secondly, you have swallowed up Bajoran propaganda that Cardassia was an invasion force of occupation, rather than a charity mission of mercy. Gul Dukat had these same problems and was trying every solution he could. Your presumption that the Bajorans are capable of receiving help is preventing you from understanding that the help they did receive was all that could be given. Its the same as how you can't hand out fine silverware to prison inmates, even though it would give a clueless observer the impression that you are increasing their quality of life. lol
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Nov 21, 2017 23:30
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shadow puppet of a posted:1) Because its full of Bajorans. Maybe you should have just killed them all?
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Nov 22, 2017 06:08
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Just watched the ds9 episode where Dr Bashir is triggered while playing darts with potato man because he knows he's not going to win some award. Anyway, this guy: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Bennet_Guillory Is credited as Medical Big Shot, which is a hell of a thing to have on your business card. Later
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Nov 22, 2017 06:18
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shadow puppet of a posted:1) Because its full of Bajorans. Cardassian Man's Burden.
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Nov 22, 2017 07:41
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MA-Horus posted:Why don't you have a seat over there. Would you like a glass of K'narr, Legate? I'm more of a lecherous "She needs disciplining!" prison-camp guard-type Cardassian. 
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Nov 22, 2017 07:52
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shadow puppet of a posted:Its the same as how you can't hand out fine silverware to prison inmates
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Nov 22, 2017 08:11
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popewiles posted:At least in DS9, replicators and other high end Federation tech seem to be the carrot in order to get other civilizations to join them. Starfleet is basically looking down at Bajor from their ivory starships saying "you can be post-scarcity too, just as soon as you make your planet arable again and start producing enough food to feed your populace." The problem is two-fold: For one, even having Starfleet just sitting in orbit was seen as an insult by pretty much the entirety of the Bajoran military (which was mostly formed from cobbled-together militias by necessity from how the occupation went down, so there's no proper unity of command). Maybe a necessary one for the cooler heads amongst them, but still a real problem they wanted to solve by... I don't know. Rolling over for another occupation in all but name once the Dominion came along? The second issue is that Bajorans now base their entire identity around two things: Occupation and Religious/National Identity. They can't get out of that mindset to the point they actively refuse aid for fear of it leading to another occupation or their identities being removed, something one can see parallels to in the real world. Which leads to them being unable to rejuvenate themselves and unable to advance into their own stable identity or place in the galaxy, preferring to stay a single planet devastated by war with only some smaller satellites rather than growing up and not letting a group of space ghosts that can't figure out what the hell they're doing anyway dictate their lives. They actively refuse aid from other cultures no matter how benevolent to the point there are still starving families and outright fighting over resources when the solution is sitting literally over their heads. It also leads to them being considered stubborn morons by anyone but the Federation who are too polite to tell them to stop being that way. Even Sisko doesn't push the point too much and he isn't known to be courteous. Kira eventually figuring all this out is probably one of the better arcs of DS9 if only because the rest of the Bajorans being so drat frustrating every time they appear on screen. Cardassians at least have the faux affably evil status and a few of their soldiers obviously just being too afraid of the people higher up the food chain to act independently, making them if not sympathetic then not outright hated. They have regrets, some of them even realizing they were monsters but don't know how to handle that or bring redemption, whereas Bajorans can barely stop actively sabotaging themselves into starvation and inner strife. The only people with more inner strife are Klingons and that's because they designed their way of life that way by design. It leads them to being stubborn morons too with massive corruption issues, but they very obviously don't starve or lack in what they need.
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Nov 22, 2017 09:15
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Their starving is a moral one, they lack proper character :guldukatsad:
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Nov 22, 2017 11:27
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I unironically love the Bajorans. They're the most "human" of all species in Trek in just how insanely loving stupid assholes they are.
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Nov 22, 2017 16:01
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Also you can give silverware to prisoners, they do in many Scandinavian prisons and give them full kitchen supplies and private rooms. Treating people like humans gets them to act like humans. Bajorans all have PTSD after the occupation so I'll cut them a little slack. The US has basically a cardassian outlook on prison.
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Nov 22, 2017 16:45
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Baronjutter posted:The US has basically a cardassian outlook
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Nov 22, 2017 16:53
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