|
food court bailiff posted:my dude we are not talking about accurate mathematical simulations here, we are talking about mathematical simulations running on actual computers which are kind of total pants at actually doing math sometimes This happened in like a 5 million entry database I had to work with. Hundreds of thousands of entries that should have been 0.002 ended up being either 0.0019999999997 or 0.00200000003 and then when they were imported into the new database software they were truncated rather than rounded so half of them went from 0.002 to 0.001 which hosed things up rather badly.
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 17:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 10:00 |
|
|
veiled boner fuel posted:This happened in like a 5 million entry database I had to work with. Hundreds of thousands of entries that should have been 0.002 ended up being either 0.0019999999997 or 0.00200000003 and then when they were imported into the new database software they were truncated rather than rounded so half of them went from 0.002 to 0.001 which hosed things up rather badly. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:00
|
|
|
Meme Emulator posted:I still think implementing some sort of scaling option is the right choice here when the other option is to keep everything to scale. Even if the planets are tiny in the astronomical sense, and its not like any of us would be able to tell, a "tiny" planet is still an absolutely gigantic piece of empty space. Theres no point to having all that space, especially if you want the players to interact with one another. I can understand why theyre trying to hack this scaling solution in I think you are misreading their "solution", they are merely not scaling sown astronomical objects from real world dimensions (though they have to do that as well, obviously), they are shrinking down the player and all the objects in direct proportion to the shrinking of the game world, in order to allow as much empty space as possible to be featured.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:03
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:I think you are misreading their "solution", they are merely not scaling sown astronomical objects from real world dimensions (though they have to do that as well, obviously), they are shrinking down the player and all the objects in direct proportion to the shrinking of the game world, in order to allow as much empty space as possible to be featured. I get whats going on, Im just saying that shrinking everything is preferable to absurdly massive planets Im sure theres a third way here that works better but this particular design decision doesnt seem baffling to me
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:05
|
|
|
Put it this way: everything in Star citizen is extra small, but things like planets are extra extra small. So your space man, instead of being the CryEngine standard of 2 meters or whatever is now .002 meters, and all the ships and structures are scaled to that scale. Now, the moons are also built to that scale, so that everything looks right, but actually they're even smaller than that because *reasons* (there's already not enough content for one small moon let alone two full size moons) so your .002 meter spaceman now feels like he's walking around on a scale version of Rhode Island rolled up into a ball instead of a scale version of an actual moon.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:09
|
|
|
I think the optimal solution is don't make procedural planets because they're always big and empty and stupid
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:10
|
|
|
What is the point of the planets/moons anyway? Will there be stuff... to do?
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:11
|
|
|
Meme Emulator posted:I get whats going on, Im just saying that shrinking everything is preferable to absurdly massive planets If you shrink everything, including the point of reference, then everyting is equally as massive as it would be otherwise. (Making full scale planets was never an option for them to begin with, I can't imagine that would be remotely technologically possible) The sane solution would be to make fake transitions between planetside and space levels. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Dec 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:12
|
|
|
Fartbox posted:What is the point of the ANYTHING IN THIS GAME anyway? Will there be stuff... to do? No.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:13
|
|
|
scaling like shrinking down the planets is really common in games and pretty much the most reliable way to do something like that, it's the scope of what they're doing and how they're going about it that is really dumb
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:14
|
|
|
Chris Roberts right now 
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:20
|
|
|
Fartbox posted:What is the point of the planets/moons anyway? Will there be stuff... to do? Chris Roberts was pretty proud about a moon crater being larger than Skyrim... it was completely bereft of content or any points of interest of course, but look how big it is 
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
SOooo you just..... walk around? What about those big rear end worms from that one video
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:46
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:If you shrink everything, including the point of reference, then everyting is equally as massive as it would be otherwise. (Making full scale planets was never an option for them to begin with, I can't imagine that would be remotely technologically possible) They've started modelling the relative pressures of gases in a ships life support, because of ~realism~, so making fake loading screens for planetary landings is right out of the question
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:47
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:The sane solution would be to make fake transitions between planetside and space levels. Yea but flying from space to a planet is something ppl have wanted to do since Dr Derek Smart himself first broke ground on BattleCruiser 3000AD back in 2000
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:50
|
|
|
Fartbox posted:SOooo you just..... walk around? It was a staged event, you can see that all they animated it to do is pop up and wiggle, then they cut to a pre-rendered video of that huge fly-out
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:52
|
|
|
Fartbox posted:Game development isn't magic. It's not a wizards school full of mages doing arcane rituals to create cool new game systems never before seen I think most people here get that. What I wonder is if the backers know this, in the back of their minds. Or if they’re just that stupid. Anytime you hear “we’re switching engines”, it’s over. Never been a game halfway through dev that switched engines and turned out good. But that’s from professional studios. Crobert industries is another 3D Realms, except instead of wasting the owners money, they’re wasting yours.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:53
|
|
|
Lack of Gravitas posted:They've started modelling the relative pressures of gases in a ships life support, because of ~realism~, so making fake loading screens for planetary landings is right out of the question I asked croberts if i could infiltrate an air filter factory and tamper with a specific production line for the model i know my enemies use to have them asphyxiate in deep space a few months later. He said yes and offered me a 10% discount if i bought a covert ops bundle right there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
Bistromatic posted:I asked croberts if i could infiltrate an air filter factory and tamper with a specific production line for the model i know my enemies use to have them asphyxiate in deep space a few months later. He said yes and offered me a 10% discount if i bought a covert ops bundle right there. This would make me buy the game. But there is no game and no air filter factory.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:20
|
|
|
I am going to sabotage the electric wiring factory so the insulation is below spec and lacks flame retardant chemicals causing ships to catch fire during firefights as the power surges going into the weapons systems overheat the wires.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:24
|
|
|
How many different company names do you need to develop one lovely MMO and a Cryengine movie?
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:25
|
|
|
I don't get how shrinking things helps? If your engine can't handle ten people walking around how does putting a 0. In front of their size change that? It's still the same amount of objects with the same amount of detail
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:31
|
|
|
CountryMatters posted:I don't get how shrinking things helps? If your engine can't handle ten people walking around how does putting a 0. In front of their size change that? It's still the same amount of objects with the same amount of detail If your world is 1000 worldunits big, and your player characters are sized to be 1 worldunit big, you can have two players at most 1000 worldunits away and it will seem like, at most, 2 kilometers or so to them (provided all the level geometry has good design that implies scale and distance well). In Croberts Logic, if you scale your player characters to be 0.1 worldunits big, then you can make it seem like the characters are at most 20 kilometers away! This has all the problems other people have mentioned already. But what does Croberts care if it lets him part a fool and his money?
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:47
|
|
|
CountryMatters posted:I don't get how shrinking things helps? If your engine can't handle ten people walking around how does putting a 0. In front of their size change that? It's still the same amount of objects with the same amount of detail I think it's to get around data type limits, especially if you are playing with the scale of the actual universe you are going to run into some large numbers Sort of reminds me of Diablo 3, at one point the power of players got so high that the game would crash/slowdown because the amount of numbers and calculations done on the large amount of enemies was something the game engine couldn't handle
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:51
|
|
|
CountryMatters posted:I don't get how shrinking things helps? If your engine can't handle ten people walking around how does putting a 0. In front of their size change that? It's still the same amount of objects with the same amount of detail They didn’t do their research when deciding on that engine. First thing I thought was exactly how a first person shooter oriented game was going to deal with massive space exploration? Unreal 4 is just getting around to handling big maps gracefully (kind of...) That “make things a smaller size and just move the camera closer and everything looks bigger” is a very old hack in 3d rendering and I’m sure other games have implemented it but it’s just that, a hack. As someone else mentioned, they should’ve first figured out the main feature set of their game (connecting hundreds of players into a very big open space) instead of building 3d models of spaceships, which is the much easier thing to do
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:52
|
|
|
I cant wait to fly around in space with my sister who will only be wearing her underwear
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:53
|
|
|
It would be instructive, I think, to interview a half dozen Citizens with basic questions about how featues will work (will there be instancing? How will pvp be handlesd? How will seamless ground to space transitions work?) to see if there is a diversity of answers indicating they are all just building their idealized game in their heads.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:54
|
|
|
They should go the Bethesda route and make all the spaceships just hats that your character wears.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:57
|
|
|
I don't know how the Citizens abide the Wikipedia page in its current state:quote:Development of Star Citizen began in 2011[3] and was originally planned for a release in 2014, and again in 2016. As of 2017, there is no official release date, and the game is still in active development. Squadron 42 was originally announced for a late 2015 release, but was delayed. As of December 2017, there is no definite release date. quote:Star Citizen was announced in 2012 in a Kickstarter campaign as a spiritual successor to Robert's previous games, the Wing Commander series and Freelancer. The initial estimated target release date during the crowdfunding campaign was 2014, and has since been delayed repeatedly as the game grew in scale. quote:Version 3.0 of the Star Citizen alpha, which the developers have stated would be a major step in the development containing many of the promised features including planetary landing, subsumption architecture AI, optimized network performance, professions such as transport/mining, and numerous points of interest was announced on August 19, 2016 at Gamescom for a scheduled release in December 2016.[48] It was then announced in October 2016 that it will be split into four smaller releases (3.0, 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3)[49] but failed to make the 2016 release date. quote:Most of these stretch goals have not yet been delivered. quote:The game's developers have attracted criticism for continuing to raise funds enthusiastically while failing to meet project deadlines.[91][92] From the outset, Chris Roberts, the game's lead developer, pledged to treat every customer with the same respect as a publisher.[93] However, he has been late to disclose major events like an engine change[94] and missed release estimates. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 20:00
|
|
|
i'm gonna write a book about lovely kickstarter games and title it WHY PUBLISHERS EXIST star citizen mn9(/redash) everything tim schafer has done in ten or so years
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 20:11
|
|
|
CountryMatters posted:I don't get how shrinking things helps? If your engine can't handle ten people walking around how does putting a 0. In front of their size change that? It's still the same amount of objects with the same amount of detail Here's a slightly more technical and detailed answer: For things like position and movement a computer will generally use numbers called Floating Points. Floating points are good because they can go higher. So if a normal variable in memory could store a number between 0 and 999, a floating point could go from 0 to a million billion. That's a big difference! So if you want the position of objects to be able to represent both the small (when walking forward I would like my character to move smoothly rather than a series of jerks, so my "ruler" needs to represent millimeters) and the large (I want to use the space-binoculars to look at my friend 10 kilometers away), then floating points are great! If you were using normal numbers, your world would either have to be the size of a living room, or everyone would move around like chessmen. However, floating points are also kinda bad at doing some of the things you expect numbers to do. Things like adding 1+1= 2. Using floating points, maybe you get 1+1= 1.999973. That's not right! But it's how they work and why they're able to store values that normal variables can't: they trade accuracy for range. If you are a programmer you keep this in mind and use them when you can say "ehhhh 1.999973 is close enough to 2." You put some little fences around the floats in your code so they don't contaminate the normal numbers with their mess. And yes, as you read this your computer is doing a bunch of math that gets by on "ehhhh close enough." And it works because good programmers made it. But if you are a bad programmer you do things like forget about where the boundary between "ehhh" and "no, 1.999973 is not the same as 2" starts to make a difference. Things like looking at the size of your semi-realistic planet and saying "geez even a million billion isn't big enough to represent a planet in millimeters, we need to change the ruler to meters". So now the character only 2 tall instead of 2000, and your feet are sometimes 0.000027 above the ground and sometimes 0.000034 below the ground. And then that interacts with your physics system which is *also* using floating point math and suddenly you are in a  video of Star Citizen and your character is walking through walls and the space station rings are spinning off into the sun.
Klyith fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Dec 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 21:04
|
|
|
Tinfoil Papercut posted:How many different company names do you need to develop one lovely MMO and a Cryengine movie? Currently it's 17 different companies (mostly LLC shell companies to move money around) that Croberts founded to develop Star Citizen. So the answer is 17 I guess. Some of them have funny names - Roberts Space Industries and Robert Space Industries are two separate legal entities (out of the 17) in this bizarre saga. The best part is when backers get refund deny emails saying they've contacted the wrong shell company, which has of course nothing to do with Star Citizen. There are lots posted in the main SC thread over the years. Rad Russian fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Dec 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 21:07
|
|
|
Well, as someone who had only vaguely heard about Star Citizen several years ago and mostly forgotten about it, this whole saga has been quite the rabbit-hole to fall into. Dear god, what a trainwreck. For the people who have bought into this enormous, unprecedented scam that is, not CIG. steinrokkan posted:If you shrink everything, including the point of reference, then everyting is equally as massive as it would be otherwise. (Making full scale planets was never an option for them to begin with, I can't imagine that would be remotely technologically possible) You guys are all talking about technological limitations and what would actually be a good idea when making a fun, workable game as if this company actually cares about any of that. Why should they? They already have a highly successful business model that they've made upwards of a 160 million dollars in revenue with: promising suckers an impossible game that will make all their dreams come true and then collecting their sucker money. Talking about actual features and limitations that would exist in their actual game (if it was made) would put a crimp on that business model, since the whales would realize that the game is just going to be another game and not a universe simulator, and would stop blowing thousands and thousands of dollars on it. The backers/suckers for this project have fallen for some twisted logic where they don't realize that they have the economics of this project completely backwards. Decades of watching traditionally published games being released have led them into this trap where they don't realize that giving someone a boatload of money and telling them "please put this enormous fortune we've given you with no strings attached to good use" will create the most likely outcome of the person taking the money and running off with it so they can live the rest of their lives in luxury without having to work ever again. No, backers of this project try and apply the same economic logic to this project as they do to any video game that's being developed by an actual publisher. Back in the real world, a project's budget puts the company in the hole for that amount of money; creating a need to generate strong enough sales to break even and hopefully make a profit. And if the publisher thinks the game is going to be a dud, they're going to cut their losses and scale down the game's marketing costs rather than continuing to throw good money after bad. Hence, if you are a gamer watching games being released in a normal, sane industry, then seeing a game be hyped to death by its publisher, lots of demos released, etc etc means that the publisher is willing to spend a lot on marketing because they expect that sales of the game are going to be strong. Instead if they thought that the game was going to be a disappointing, glitchy mess, they'd have already started cutting their losses by promoting the game less, not more. And so these gamers have fallen for a trap where they don't seem to understand that the economics behind Star Citizen work backwards. That 160+ million dollars is not the game's budget, it is the game's revenue. What reason do Chris Roberts and Co have to actually work hard and create a game that's going to sell well? Every dime they spend on actually making a game is just subtracting money from the enormous profit on it that they've already made. Of course they're going to buy $3,000 coffee machines for their office; they have all this money and need some business justification for blowing it on luxuries for themselves. Like I said they already have a highly successful business model: just spending money marketing their non-existent game while delivering nothing, and still fleecing nerds out of millions and millions of dollars. It doesn't seem to occur to these "backers" that the endless promises, demos, behind the scenes sneak peaks, etc, are simply designed to lure them into spending more money and nothing else, because that strategy would never work in the regular games industry. All their expectations of decades of purchasing video games have been thrown onto this scam without realizing that everything about the money portion of it is backwards. I think the poster who said that this was "the perfect storm" was right. The economics of Kickstarter can actually work if it's on a small enough level that the person delivering the goods has to rely on their reputation staying good to get future streams of revenue, but that all goes out the window when you give someone A HUNDRED AND SIXTY MILLION loving DOLLARS. It's just amazing. Books are going to be written about it once it all ends and the dust settles. And I hope Chris Roberts and his wife have to spend the rest of their lives spending some of their ill-gotten money hiring private security guards and looking over their shoulders for angry losers who they've bilked thousands of dollars out of coming after them, because they deserve it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 21:25
|
|
|
All true except it was a $23,000 coffee machine 
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 21:41
|
|
|
It was paid with backer money though so it's all cool
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 21:45
|
|
|
Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:What I wonder is if the backers know this, in the back of their minds. Or if they’re just that stupid. Not stupid, but I bet a large majority of die hards have undiagnosed untreated depression.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 21:48
|
|
|
Lack of Gravitas posted:It was paid with backer money though so it's all cool A coffee machine for a large (300+) corporate office is not that egregious usually. Lots of large companies do it (although they would get something in $1000-2000 range at most). The reason goons made fun of it so much was because it was for the LA office which has less than 20 people in it. That's just an insulting waste of backer money. Lots of indie kickstarter games want that kind of cash as their full funding target. Instead Croberts spent that money so his wife in LA can have the most expensive coffee in the world.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 21:50
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 21:54
|
|
|
Croberts Space Haus, features piled high
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 22:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 10:00 |
|
|
Ruggan posted:Croberts Space Haus, features piled high It's too early to call this a criminally underrated post, but I'm gonna do it anyway
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 22:26
|
|