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iospace posted:Yeah, modern consumer PC tech is plateauing hard and Moore's Law is about ready to break down. Threadripper is cool and showing that there's still improvement to be made on the multi-thread/core standpoint on the hardware side, but single core performance is reaching the point where it's nearly fully optimized. Monitor and TV makers are trying to push 8k now (despite the fact that no one can really notice the difference between it and 4k), but 1080p is still suitable for most people and 4k is still a bit too pricy for most people. I know most modern GPUs can put out 120 FPS at 1080p with a demanding game, and I'm pretty sure 60+ at 4k is possible now as well. Monitor manufacturers are still working on 120Hz 4k monitors but they should be coming sometime soon. The only one I know of that you can get now is actually a DIY kit with no back panel so the PCBs are exposed. Here's a Linus Tech Tips video from September showing it off He had to use 2 displayport 1.2 cables because one can't handle the bandwidth needed for 4k 120Hz and one of the exposed PCBs got damaged in shipping so there's a lot of flickering and color problems but it worked.
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Dec 25, 2017 20:27
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CrazyLoon posted:An alpha game for alpha males. so when the game hits beta.................................
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Dec 25, 2017 20:27
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The Titanic posted:The funny part about computer gaming in general is that as things got prettier, the scopes shrank. I've noticed this over the decades, and oft wondered if its an artifact of art being unable to keep pace with engineering, or eating all of the budget.
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Dec 25, 2017 20:28
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Just popping in to say happy xmas commandos! *jitters off wearing a paper crown hat*
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Dec 25, 2017 20:37
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Incitatus posted:so when the game hits beta................................. Backers will feel cheated.
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Dec 25, 2017 20:40
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CrazyLoon posted:A pre-alpha game for pre-alpha males.
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Dec 25, 2017 20:57
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iospace posted:Yeah, modern consumer PC tech is plateauing hard and Moore's Law is about ready to break down. Threadripper is cool and showing that there's still improvement to be made on the multi-thread/core standpoint on the hardware side, but single core performance is reaching the point where it's nearly fully optimized. Monitor and TV makers are trying to push 8k now (despite the fact that no one can really notice the difference between it and 4k), but 1080p is still suitable for most people and 4k is still a bit too pricy for most people. I know most modern GPUs can put out 120 FPS at 1080p with a demanding game, and I'm pretty sure 60+ at 4k is possible now as well. Roberts mentioned Moores law itself as one of the founding pillars of star citizen development and used it as an excuse for the performance nightmare in previous patches ("we Code for future hardware") Intel already dropped Moores law orientation in its Roadmaps by early 2016 after continued problems to get 10 nanometer architectures to work in mass production. Traditional FET design processors end at about 3nm anyway as you get into quantum tunneling at that point so there's 1, maybe 2 iterations left after 10nm before FET processors reach saturation and you can only go higher count by sizing up the die.
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Dec 25, 2017 20:58
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iospace posted:Yeah, modern consumer PC tech is plateauing hard and Moore's Law is about ready to break down. Threadripper is cool and showing that there's still improvement to be made on the multi-thread/core standpoint on the hardware side, but single core performance is reaching the point where it's nearly fully optimized. Monitor and TV makers are trying to push 8k now (despite the fact that no one can really notice the difference between it and 4k), but 1080p is still suitable for most people and 4k is still a bit too pricy for most people. I know most modern GPUs can put out 120 FPS at 1080p with a demanding game, and I'm pretty sure 60+ at 4k is possible now as well. Yeah, this is really interesting, and warms my bitter old programmer heart. There are such massive gains to be had from proper optimization, that I think most non-programmers and even many less skilled/experienced programmers, would be surprised if they knew the full extent of the gunk running on their hardware. The rapid advances in hardware have allowed software developers to get away with terrible code that would have been a no-go in the previous millenium. A good example are the chromium-powered applications popular these days: Hacked together javascript code running in a bloated browser/VM running on top of an equally bloated OS. And with crappy and/or bloated libraries sprinkled across every single layer. Games are less guilty of this, but there's still a lot of potential for improvements based purely on writing better code and wasting fewer clock cycles on stupid overhead and redundancy. I think there's a good chance the next killer game engine will not be one which pushes the boundaries of render technology and fidelity. Instead we could be looking at one with a lean, mean and rock-solid core that allows it to trash the performance of other engines, even when dealing with massive scenes, large numbers of objects, etc. The current generation of engines (Unity3D, Unreal, CryEngine/LY, Frostbyte, etc.) are all mired in technical debt, gunky code and backwards compatibility. Even if Star Citizen had the best technical and managerial leadership in the world, it still could not achieve what they want with the current generation of engines. The ambition and scale they boast so much about does not "merely" require skillfully adapting current technology. It requires a paradigm shift applied to an entirely new engine. Nevertheless, with the massive budget they had, there was a chance to make the best of the engine they were contractually obligated to use. This would involve doing the proper analysis and protoworking. Working out what the challenges were, taking the time and effort to decide where to compromise, where to develop entirely new technology and where to experiment. And not actively building a playable game while doing this. Instead they've simply layered every single thing on top of the existing systems. I am hard pressed to see an instance of actual innovation and novel development. Everything is CryEngine hammered into shape until it fits or breaks - and then duct-taped or covered up, if it broke. I am baffled by this approach. Why didn't they build actual server technology? Why is there no custom network protocol? Why didn't they build a custom system to handle scalability of physics? Every single issue they're having to solve now just to make 3.0 playable, could've addressed at the beginning of the project. Even with the vague and ever-expanding scope, they knew they were build an MMO with spaceships. I wasn't along for this bizarro ride early on, as I took one look at the original pitch, was tempted but then remembered how difficult it is to build a space MMO, and decided to keep my wallet closed until they had more to show and I was confident this was not going to be a shallow pay-to-win game. But can someone who was a backer and fan back then comment on why early development took this weird path of refusing to make any new technology, and instead simply pretend CryEngine could be hammered into an MMO engine?
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Dec 25, 2017 21:00
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https://i.imgur.com/6MCsa57.gifv
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Dec 25, 2017 21:07
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PederP posted:Coding efficiency. I started programming back when whiz bang coding tricks, carefully crafting your C++, and inserting asm segments, could make or break your programming superstar reputation. Now, just do it in C#, or script it. Minecraft was made in Java, for gently caress's sake. It's a more widely marketable employment skill to be able to do those things, than be the niche weirdo who can fine tune loops of assembly.
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Dec 25, 2017 21:18
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Bootcha posted:Let's try this again, Merry Christmas...  
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Dec 25, 2017 21:19
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I’m still loling at tonk
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Dec 25, 2017 21:19
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Just asking for my own curiosity. Why are high end monitors focusing on specifically 144hz? I understand the 60hz standard for framerate, and electricity distribution, because it's dividable by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 15, 20, 30 (fyi, the countries that went with 50hz hosed up). Why 144?
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Dec 25, 2017 21:25
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Dusty Lens posted:So long and tanks for all the cash.
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Dec 25, 2017 21:28
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XK posted:Just asking for my own curiosity. Why are high end monitors focusing on specifically 144hz? I understand the 60hz standard for framerate, and electricity distribution, because it's dividable by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 15, 20, 30 (fyi, the countries that went with 50hz hosed up). Why 144? 24hz x 6.
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Dec 25, 2017 21:29
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Merry Christmas one and all
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Dec 25, 2017 21:38
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Cao Ni Ma posted:24hz x 6. But the ubiquitous standard just doesn't.
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Dec 25, 2017 21:40
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Cao Ni Ma posted:24hz x 6. Yes, but it's bad for 30, 50, 60hz content. It's less of an issue with stuff like g-sync, where the monitor will automatically adjust its refresh to the content. 144 just seems arbitrary to me.
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Dec 25, 2017 21:47
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Yeah but it's literally the next 24hz step and that's why they've done it. Because 24hz is "cinematic".
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Dec 25, 2017 21:48
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Galarox posted:Merry Christmas one and all  Never not Galarox
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Dec 25, 2017 21:50
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XK posted:Yes, but it's bad for 30, 50, 60hz content. There shouldn't be a whole lot of locked 30/50/60 content for PCs outside of poo poo ports Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Dec 25, 2017 |
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Dec 25, 2017 21:51
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XK posted:I started programming back when whiz bang coding tricks, carefully crafting your C++, and inserting asm segments, could make or break your programming superstar reputation. Yeah, but my point is that we're reaching that point where the free ride is over, and the ever-increasing hackery has to come to an end. I am not suggesting that we'll be going back to optimization style of the C/C++ era. Just that the blatant disregard for performance, insane magpie mentality of cobbling together libraries, and other bad habits will hopefully be coming to an end. There is so much untapped potential in the current hardware, and unlocking it requires somewhat of a paradigm shift, not just in coding practices but in development methodologies as well. I'll resist the temptation to veer off into a longer rant, but I think Star Citizen is a prime example of why money, ambition and agile bravago simply can't cut it, if the foundation is poo poo and the engineering discipline simply isn't in place.
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Dec 25, 2017 21:58
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Incitatus posted:My post to counter the non-goon post. Congrats on being an even worse noise poster than I am
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Dec 25, 2017 21:59
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Cao Ni Ma posted:There shouldn't be a whole lot of locked 30/50/60 content for PCs outside of poo poo ports I was referring more to stuff like recorded video, where it was created for PAL or NTSC.
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Dec 25, 2017 22:08
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Galarox posted:Merry Christmas one and all give me the loving jpegs you cock sucker
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Dec 25, 2017 22:11
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Scruffpuff posted:Star Citizen is #2 new thread title
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Dec 25, 2017 22:12
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Oh poo poo you forgot to check your stocking... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPxnBAdbbo
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Dec 25, 2017 22:14
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PederP posted:Yeah, but my point is that we're reaching that point where the free ride is over, and the ever-increasing hackery has to come to an end. I am not suggesting that we'll be going back to optimization style of the C/C++ era. Just that the blatant disregard for performance, insane magpie mentality of cobbling together libraries, and other bad habits will hopefully be coming to an end. There is so much untapped potential in the current hardware, and unlocking it requires somewhat of a paradigm shift, not just in coding practices but in development methodologies as well. I'll resist the temptation to veer off into a longer rant, but I think Star Citizen is a prime example of why money, ambition and agile bravago simply can't cut it, if the foundation is poo poo and the engineering discipline simply isn't in place. I totally agree with you. I'd like to see coding efficiency become a thing again. We've had a decade+ of just slamming poo poo together because the hardware keeps getting faster. Now that's hitting a wall, symmetric processing is the way forward, and if you can't write efficient code, your multi-threaded performance is going to be a nightmare. Hence Star Citizen blowing out a single core at 100% utilization, while everything chugs.
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Dec 25, 2017 22:16
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Bootcha posted:Oh poo poo you forgot to check your stocking... Thank You, Goon blessings
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Dec 25, 2017 22:21
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CrazyLoon posted:An alpha game for alpha males.
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Dec 25, 2017 22:22
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Slow_Moe posted:Just to add a little to your argument, which is absolutely right btw. And Prey is considered a game that's not particularly well optimised.
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Dec 25, 2017 22:22
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Bootcha posted:Oh poo poo you forgot to check your stocking... hope you like ur injuction
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Dec 25, 2017 22:23
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Kilmers Elbow posted:give me the loving jpegs you cock sucker
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Dec 25, 2017 22:23
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Bootcha posted:Oh poo poo you forgot to check your stocking...
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Dec 25, 2017 22:30
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Bootcha posted:Oh poo poo you forgot to check your stocking... Truly a parpmass miracle!
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Dec 25, 2017 22:33
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Galarox posted:Merry Christmas one and all    GunChat just now made me realize that I might be a better shot if I had ever shot left-handed. I golf left and bat left, but I write with my right so it never occurred to me to shoot left. Will experiment at some point in the future!
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Dec 25, 2017 22:34
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Bootcha posted:Oh poo poo you forgot to check your stocking... Dang. This is going to be good.
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Dec 25, 2017 22:37
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Meanwhile over at FDdev, MTBFritz has written another one of his epic efforts posts
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Dec 25, 2017 22:37
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Bootcha posted:Oh poo poo you forgot to check your stocking... 
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Dec 25, 2017 22:37
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Hand movement at a 3, I'm going to need you to take it up to a 10.
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Dec 25, 2017 22:39
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