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So there's the possibility of removing a non-disparagement clause and release of claims clause from a separation agreement? And those clauses are typical in separation agreements? Basically, is it worth it to get the agreement looked over by a lawyer vs. just saying "gently caress it whatever"? Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 22:54
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Remote job didn't work out?
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Jan 2, 2018 23:00
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fantastic in plastic posted:Remote job didn't work out? Unfortunately, no - still collecting my thoughts on the matter, though.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:03
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Pollyanna posted:So there's the possibility of removing a non-disparagement clause and release of claims clause from a separation agreement? And those clauses are typical in separation agreements? Do you want to sue and/or think they screwed you over with dirty deeds? Those would be the main reasons not to sign it, and they almost certainly won't give you anything in return without those clauses. The other reason would be peace of mind because there's something you don't understand or looks fishy in the agreement.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:10
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Peace of mind would be the main benefit, as well as an idea of how fair the agreement would be. Not a whole lot I can do, though.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:25
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Pollyanna posted:Peace of mind would be the main benefit, as well as an idea of how fair the agreement would be. Not a whole lot I can do, though. If this non-disparagement clause hinders in any way your ability to regale us with the tale, you should not sign it.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:28
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Skandranon posted:If this non-disparagement clause hinders in any way your ability to regale us with the tale, you should not sign it. I have no idea how it would impact that, which is why I want to run it by a lawyer.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:29
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Keetron posted:- One silent guy who made the rockstars code actually work by fixing typo's and other silly bugs The hero we need
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Jan 2, 2018 23:36
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Munkeymon posted:She said this year, not today. Now you don't have anything planned for the next 363 days! just like my dating schedule! But seriously, this is really just step 1, and it really feels liberating being my first time quitting after years of just feeling useless day in and day out. That I'm having an okay-ish (4 out 9) response rate on my resume made me think why i haven't done this before. 
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Jan 3, 2018 01:50
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So, the new job didn't work out. First order of business for the day was to meet with my manager aaaaaaand he told me that today would be my last day and sent over a separation agreement for me to sign. When I pressed for an explanation to why I was being let go, his response was disjointed and difficult to understand - what I managed to glean was that it had something to do with how the remote setup was working with the rest of the team, and something about a small company culture vs. big company culture and how they operate as a startup. When I asked for more details, he said (in his words) that it was "not a fit with the way they work, can't say much more" and that his response was "very vague" but that he unfortunately couldn't say more. Honestly, I'm more disappointed and annoyed than anything. If there's something wrong with how I was working, I would have expected feedback and critique to work off of and improve on instead of just being unceremoniously dumped. If it was a matter of me being a remote worker, I would have expected that to be something the company considered well in advance of hiring me and not something they'd change their mind on a month after I start. The fact that the reasoning wasn't well elucidated and that this more or less came out of left field makes me suspicious as to the real reason why I was let go, and coupled with the non-disparagement and release of claims clauses in the separation agreement, I started wondering if I should get someone to look over the agreement before I sign it. The likelihood is that the company just changed its mind or something and it's just boilerplate though.  This is hugely disappointing and I'm genuinely angry that the company chose this way and time to break the news, but honestly it's probably for the best. I don't know how much I can say about the company with this agreement thing, but I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say I had a negative experience. I just don't want to be barred from saying that, and I don't feel comfortable signing something saying I can't. and if it turns out that it's my own fault then i guess i deserve it 
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Jan 3, 2018 02:13
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If it came as a surprise to you it sounds like a lovely company culture.
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Jan 3, 2018 02:16
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Pollyanna posted:and if it turns out that it's my own fault then i guess i deserve it Stop! Stop. Stoooop. Stop. No. It's Always Management's Fault, Just Never To Their Face.
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Jan 3, 2018 02:18
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Ostiosis posted:If it came as a surprise to you it sounds like a lovely company culture. It...kinda was a lovely company culture. 14~16 hour work days were apparently normal and I felt that I was resented as someone who wanted to stick to a strict 9~5 EST workday, especially since I was a remote worker. Communication was difficult and the culture seemed to discourage seeking others out for explanation on parts of the codebase, background on why things are and what can improve, etc. - very resistant to change and modern practices. At least one other engineer constantly expressed frustration when speaking of the codebase, management, and direction of the product and seemed to be very resigned to its fate of being crap when I brought up the many problems I saw, and that was very discouraging and made me wary of ending up like them. I didn't feel very welcome, and if that had continued I would likely have left on my own anyway.
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Jan 3, 2018 02:20
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Pollyanna posted:So, the new job didn't work out. First order of business for the day was to meet with my manager aaaaaaand he told me that today would be my last day and sent over a separation agreement for me to sign. When I pressed for an explanation to why I was being let go, his response was disjointed and difficult to understand - what I managed to glean was that it had something to do with how the remote setup was working with the rest of the team, and something about a small company culture vs. big company culture and how they operate as a startup. When I asked for more details, he said (in his words) that it was "not a fit with the way they work, can't say much more" and that his response was "very vague" but that he unfortunately couldn't say more. I'm guessing the separation agreement doesn't give you any appreciable severance? Don't sign that. I'm not doing this to be mean, but the core of your problems seems to be now repeatedly demonstrated fact that you don't know how to integrate and flow with a team. You need to try to integrate with the team's culture and adopt the team's practices whatever they are - even if you were coming in to manage that team, you would start from the same stance before trying to change anything. Concentrate on helping the team and others and good things will follow. Only after you're productive and well-liked do you try to do anything other than concentrate on how best to support the team.
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Jan 3, 2018 02:31
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baquerd posted:I'm guessing the separation agreement doesn't give you any appreciable severance? Don't sign that. No, there's severance involved, "at the company's discretion" or whatever. quote:I'm not doing this to be mean, but the core of your problems seems to be now repeatedly demonstrated fact that you don't know how to integrate and flow with a team. You need to try to integrate with the team's culture and adopt the team's practices whatever they are - even if you were coming in to manage that team, you would start from the same stance before trying to change anything. Concentrate on helping the team and others and good things will follow. Only after you're productive and well-liked do you try to do anything other than concentrate on how best to support the team. I won't deny that integrating with the team was difficult, but it went further than just me saying we needed better development practices - which if a team is resistant to, is a bigger problem than I know how to handle. And I understand that each team and company works differently, which is why I had specifically come in with the intent to integrate with the team and learn the codebase rather than come in and muck a bunch of poo poo up. It's not like I was in a position to do so anyway, given the distance and separation from the team. But I get your advice, I don't want to come in and change everything and I really hope that wasn't how I came off.
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Jan 3, 2018 02:36
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Pollyanna posted:No, there's severance involved, "at the company's discretion" or whatever. "at the company's discretion" isn't severance. A number, in writing, on the paper you're signing, is severance.
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Jan 3, 2018 02:41
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Pollyanna posted:No, there's severance involved, "at the company's discretion" or whatever. You'll want to get them to turn that severance into a specific number before signing, I'd think. As a junior, or even mid-level engineer, pushing better development practices simply isn't your job at most companies. If it's more than a casual one on one with the lead saying "what do you think about this?" and accepting their answer (perhaps with some clarifications so you better understand their position), you are inherently causing problems. You just said at your latest position, they were "very resistant to change and modern practices." That you have approached the point where you have discovered they are "very" resistant is a red flag. You're going to shortly be facing a problematic resume position because you haven't been able to hold down any job for very long, which may or may not just be an extended period of bad luck but is now going to start tending towards reflecting negatively on you and further limiting your options. I would encourage you in your next position to concentrate not on trying to bring beneficial change to the team as much as to contribute within the constraints given and ingratiate yourself to the team by helping others without causing more work or stress for anyone else involved. In your latest position in particular, you should have been aware that long hours and poor work-life balance are common in startup culture, and being a self-starter and getting things done (which you have admitted to being bad at) is key to being valued. Throw in being remote on top of that, and even on paper it's a no-brainer why they let you go.
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Jan 3, 2018 02:48
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If it's the norm in startups, then startups being run poorly is the norm. I guess I'm not cut out for startup life, and I know that about myself now.
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Jan 3, 2018 03:00
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Pollyanna posted:If it's the norm in startups, then startups being run poorly is the norm. I guess I'm not cut out for startup life, and I know that about myself now. Yes, those are both the norm in startups. The general idea is that you get a lottery ticket plus incredible freedom to shape the product as long as your ideas pan out and you put crazy hours in, but you will be poorly supported and helped along the way.
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Jan 3, 2018 03:07
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Pollyanna posted:"at the company's discretion" That sounds like dangerous and disingenuous language. Is the potential severance good to keep you afloat for a six months or is it basically 2 more weeks? VS do you feel the burning need to name and shame and call out everyone at this company? quote:You're going to shortly be facing a problematic resume position because you haven't been able to hold down any job for very long Possibly, but turning this into a "I know I was new to the company, and I was lead to believe the company embraced quality standards and wanted to continue to improve in this area. It quickly became apparent this was not the case and when I tried to suggest reasonable, positive change such as code review and unit testing and clear acceptance criteria for stories. They decided to write lovely code and let me go instead." Maybe leave out the last sentence.
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Jan 3, 2018 03:13
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What's a "modern" practice? Like is there anything hugely game changing in the past 3 years? 5 years?
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Jan 3, 2018 03:14
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geeves posted:That sounds like dangerous and disingenuous language. Is the potential severance good to keep you afloat for a six months or is it basically 2 more weeks? From what I can tell it would be 2 more weeks, and the language is closer to "although the company has no obligation to do so, it will pay you two weeks of your base salary as severance". Keep in mind that I worked there for like a little over a month. And if I was more reckless, I'd do the latter, but I think that's a bad idea which has never stopped me before. quote:Possibly, but turning this into a "I know I was new to the company, and I was lead to believe the company embraced quality standards and wanted to continue to improve in this area. It quickly became apparent this was not the case and when I tried to suggest reasonable, positive change such as code review and unit testing and clear acceptance criteria for stories. They decided to write lovely code and let me go instead." That's exactly it. JawnV6 posted:What's a "modern" practice? Like is there anything hugely game changing in the past 3 years? 5 years? Well, not really, no. I guess it's less "modern" and more "sensible", but to be honest I'm being too presumptuous in that and I have no real perspective on the matter.
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Jan 3, 2018 03:24
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Pollyanna posted:From what I can tell it would be 2 more weeks, and the language is closer to "although the company has no obligation to do so, it will pay you two weeks of your base salary as severance". Keep in mind that I worked there for like a little over a month. You need to figure out how to manage upwards. Given your posting history, it isn’t difficult to imagine the perception you’re giving your bosses. The phrases “difficult to manage” and “unwilling to work in a team setting” come to mind. And if you’re going to pick a sword to fall on, pick /one/ and make sure it’s blunted. Especially if you haven’t been asked explicitly to bring those changes. Even if you /are/ tasked with bringing about positive change, you’re not going to get everything done at once. Those things generally need to be taken slowly, like a parasitic plant. You should be able to point to how you affected change, but it shouldn’t be so overt as to raise notice while you’re doing it; at least as far as day to day development goes (your boss should additionally be aware of the changes you’re trying to make, and should be on board with them). People hate change. Don’t make people hate you by being an agent of change. Even if you are one.
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Jan 3, 2018 04:17
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I guess I can take the whole "bring positive change" thing too far sometimes, but I felt like this time that took a backseat to focusing on getting work done more often than not. Maybe I misrepresented the situation - I do feel it's important to push for good practices and improvement, but in this case it wasn't usually appropriate.
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Jan 3, 2018 04:24
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It's extremely common in a startup environment to be focused on getting the next build out / the next feature implemented, because you need a demo to be able to secure your next round of funding. Anything that doesn't directly work towards that goal is unnecessary, even though you end up building tremendous technical debt in consequence. Technical debt can be addressed later when you have the funds for another six months' worth of operations...or if you don't get those funds, then the debt is irrelevant. Coming into such an environment and trying to convince everyone to follow Good Coding Standards could easily be seen as problematic, no matter how well-intentioned you were.
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Jan 3, 2018 04:58
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:It's extremely common in a startup environment to be focused on getting the next build out / the next feature implemented, because you need a demo to be able to secure your next round of funding. Anything that doesn't directly work towards that goal is unnecessary, even though you end up building tremendous technical debt in consequence. Technical debt can be addressed later when you have the funds for another six months' worth of operations...or if you don't get those funds, then the debt is irrelevant. I know, and I really hope that's not the crux of the matter, but I recognize when I've gone too far. This is all conjecture, ultimately - I don't know exactly why they let me go..
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Jan 3, 2018 05:02
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If it secures a serious funding round, a 48-hour coding binge where you scream at your co-workers, ignore all of the existing code, use notepad as your IDE, only save your work to a single USB flash drive from 1995, and pass out in the closet covered in vomit is worth more to (some) startups than any amount of best practices. It's kind of like being in sales.
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Jan 3, 2018 05:05
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baquerd posted:a 48-hour coding binge where you scream at your co-workers, ignore all of the existing code, use notepad as your IDE, only save your work to a single USB flash drive from 1995, and pass out in the closet covered in vomit
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Jan 3, 2018 05:09
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:It's extremely common in a startup environment to be focused on getting the next build out / the next feature implemented, because you need a demo to be able to secure your next round of funding. Anything that doesn't directly work towards that goal is unnecessary, even though you end up building tremendous technical debt in consequence. Technical debt can be addressed later when you have the funds for another six months' worth of operations...or if you don't get those funds, then the debt is irrelevant. Common but doesn't have to be the rule. Granted this might be the exception, but Instagram was what 5 people and had everything automated to update through their testable process. Some startups seem to be something like, it's going to take 6-12 months to unfuck you. We bought a start up and integrated it into our platform in less than 6 months. It would have been sooner if that startup didn't insist on angular. Angular 1.x had longer implications on everything that I didn't have the power to avoid, but thankfully have the power to say, "NO".
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Jan 3, 2018 05:22
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your evaluation probably had more to do with being remote than anything else. a lot of companies are willing to hire remote employees but are unwilling to support remote employees. i'd never take a remote position unless the team i was joining was majority also remote and the company had a track record of success with remote employees
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Jan 3, 2018 05:30
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the talent deficit posted:your evaluation probably had more to do with being remote than anything else. a lot of companies are willing to hire remote employees but are unwilling to support remote employees. i'd never take a remote position unless the team i was joining was majority also remote and the company had a track record of success with remote employees Maybe they would be willing but had no idea what to expect, how would remote work, what are the upsides and the downsides. When someone is remote, everyone in the team (in the office or not) has to behave like everyone is remote (all discussion take place in the public chatroom, all meetings take place via webcams, etc. etc.). Otherwise it's all for nothing.
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Jan 3, 2018 05:52
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They had a not-insignificant amount of remote workers so I had hoped they’d be more supportive and understanding of remote workers, but I didn’t really get that sense from them. My remote coworkers were more distant from the team than the local people, who seemed to take priority. I’m especially hosed off at the position this puts me in, since I left another job to pursue the opportunity and I’m already unceremoniously out on my rear end after a month in. Now I gotta deal with finding a new job, changing insurance again, etc...I get that it’s business, but I can’t help but feel offended and disrespected as an engineer and an employee. You would think a company would be more on the ball than this.
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Jan 3, 2018 07:42
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Pollyanna posted:They had a not-insignificant amount of remote workers so I had hoped they’d be more supportive and understanding of remote workers, but I didn’t really get that sense from them. My remote coworkers were more distant from the team than the local people, who seemed to take priority. I don't know why you would expect this. Over 50% of managers cause a net harm to a given business. There are lovely coders all over, but also lovely managers, lovely HR, lovely accountants, etc. Quality is rare. That a startup doesn't know WTF to do, especially about hiring, IS the standard.
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Jan 3, 2018 07:53
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Yeah, I know...gotta be honest, I've had poor experiences with startups this whole time. I'll be avoiding them from now on.
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Jan 3, 2018 08:02
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JawnV6 posted:What's a "modern" practice? Like is there anything hugely game changing in the past 3 years? 5 years? Anything related to DevOps / Continuous Delivery is very modern for most companies.
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Jan 3, 2018 10:29
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Messyass posted:Anything related to DevOps / Continuous Delivery is very modern for most companies. I'd go so far as to call that cutting edge if you're taking the broad view. "very modern" is automated testing and deployments, a CI server, source control, and pull requests.
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Jan 3, 2018 11:35
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So given that the severance pay (one paycheck/two weeks pay) isn't compelling enough to consider signing non-disparagement and release of claims clauses for and that they're highly unlikely to accept modifications to the agreement (to the point where I'm not even going to bother), I'm just not going to sign the agreement. I reserve the right to notify others of my poor experience with and concerns about the company at large, and refuse to waive my rights under the Civil Rights Act and Americans with Disabilities Act. There's the matter of exactly how enforceable the clauses really are, and whether it's worth it at this stage to get a lawyer to look at it - that's still a call I have to make. But as it stands, this offer is not compelling enough to accept. EDIT: poo poo, I forgot about COBRA. That complicates things a lot...
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Jan 3, 2018 16:02
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Pollyanna posted:EDIT: poo poo, I forgot about COBRA. That complicates things a lot... IANAL but I don't think they can deny you COBRA unless they fire you for "gross misconduct".
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Jan 3, 2018 16:13
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Jose Valasquez posted:IANAL but I don't think they can deny you COBRA unless they fire you for "gross misconduct". Don't they have to explicitly give you COBRA as part of a severance agreement? Or maybe I misunderstood. Well, I'll leave those questions for the lawyer.
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Jan 3, 2018 16:19
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No. Absolutely not. You have COBRA from the day you're terminated.
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