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chaels biggest weakness has always been his mental game.
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Jan 20, 2018 19:53
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Marching Powder posted:additionally, he had extremely good takedown defense. true his tdd was great but it was partially because he was both tall and gigantic because of his amazing weight cutting
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Jan 20, 2018 20:28
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kimbo305 posted:He's fast, hits hard even at 155, and has chin to make up for his undeveloped defense. yeah hes one of the top handful hardest hitters ever at 145 with only bart palaszewski and jeremy stephens coming to mind for me as really being in his league, plus he has a chin that can take blasts from midget wrestlers with crazy overhand rights like mendes , also he has the biggest reach advantage except for jon jones right?
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Jan 20, 2018 20:31
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Tezcatlipoca posted:He did and he failed the gently caress out of that drug test anyway. Oh lol, I forgot he popped after that.
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Jan 20, 2018 21:14
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kimbo305 posted:He's fast, hits hard even at 155, and has chin to make up for his undeveloped defense. He got rocked by diaz, and i would argue he’s more precision/skill than brute force
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Jan 21, 2018 00:12
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kimbo305 posted:Most elite fighters are attribute fighters. Who're the physically least gifted fighters in this era who get by on wiles and technique? For a long time, I woulda said Joe Lauzon. Mike Pyle? I don't know if she's still fighting but Bethe Correia came into MMA three apples tall with a background in accounting
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Jan 21, 2018 02:16
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Hendricks never seemed to be particularly gifted and he was champ of the toughest division
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Jan 21, 2018 02:19
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Wild Horses posted:He got rocked by diaz So has pretty much every fighter that a Diaz can land on. vainman posted:Hendricks never seemed to be particularly gifted and he was champ of the toughest division He has a KO reel.
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Jan 21, 2018 02:26
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Wild Horses posted:See: nutso weight cut He's had one fight at lightweight, against the champion, and it was a blowout win and probably the best performance of his career.
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Jan 21, 2018 03:20
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He expended too much energy and got tired
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Josh Barnett was big, but was never the kind of overwhelming physical presence like a Schilt or Lesnar. He had a good chin, but it never carried him through a fight like Hunt or Nogueira. He was physically pretty strong and took plenty of steroids, but wasn't really exceptional except for the amount of drug tests he failed. Mostly he lived or died on whether he was a better grappler than his opponent, and he had a real focus on learning unusual techniques which took him to some strange places, like when he got obsessed with savate for a while and his only benefit from it was accidentally booting Mighty Mo in the balls French style. Mir is kind of in the same boat, except that he did go through that period where he was horsed out of his mind, and he's much worse at taking a shot. And I guess he had a lot more explosive speed than most big white guys.
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Jan 21, 2018 03:24
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Triticum Guzzler posted:Josh Barnett was big, but was never the kind of overwhelming physical presence like a Schilt or Lesnar. He had a good chin, but it never carried him through a fight like Hunt or Nogueira. He was physically pretty strong and took plenty of steroids, but wasn't really exceptional except for the amount of drug tests he failed. Mostly he lived or died on whether he was a better grappler than his opponent, and he had a real focus on learning unusual techniques which took him to some strange places, like when he got obsessed with savate for a while and his only benefit from it was accidentally booting Mighty Mo in the balls French style This is a good pick, but also leads me to another, maybe; Ben Rothwell.
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Jan 21, 2018 03:25
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Dan Didio posted:This is a good pick, but also leads me to another, maybe; Ben Rothwell. His midichlorians are off the chart, though
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Jan 21, 2018 03:33
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vainman posted:Hendricks never seemed to be particularly gifted and he was champ of the toughest division hendricks had ko power and speed for days. when he was good he was really dangerous.
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Jan 21, 2018 14:30
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Foul Fowl posted:hendricks had ko power and speed for days. when he was good he was really dangerous. Hendricks being bad coincided exactly with the introduction of USADA testing
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Jan 21, 2018 17:30
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GTO posted:Hendricks being bad coincided exactly with the introduction of USADA testing Nah it was when he left team takedown.
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Jan 21, 2018 19:09
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What is an 'attribute fighter'?
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Jan 21, 2018 19:43
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Neon Belly posted:What is an 'attribute fighter'? A fighter who relies heavily on their attributes to win. Renan Barao and Brock Lesnar are attribute fighters. Cody McKenzie is the opposite of an attribute fighter.
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Jan 21, 2018 20:04
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Tezcatlipoca posted:A fighter who relies heavily on their attributes to win. Renan Barao and Brock Lesnar are attribute fighters. Cody McKenzie is the opposite of an attribute fighter.
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Jan 26, 2018 16:07
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Grifter posted:"Oh yeah, Jon Jones won a lot but he just did it with his attributes unlike the hard working Randy Couture". You're starting to sound like Joe Rogan now 
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Jan 26, 2018 16:35
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Grifter posted:Isn't this basically every fighter who is good though? Anderson used a great chin, insane reflexes and his long body type to great effect. He also happened to have amazing pinpoint striking and good jiu jitsu but it's hard to deny that his physical gifts enabled his style. Mighty Mouse has a great well rounded skill set but it wouldn't work if he wasn't also quick as hell and generally athletic. This mostly sounds like a way of putting down fighters that people don't like. "Oh yeah, Jon Jones won a lot but he just did it with his attributes unlike the hard working Randy Couture". The difference is that an attribute fighter builds the style and success around that specific physical attribute. Jon Fitch and Rick Story are extreme examples of fighters who don't have many noteworthy attributes. Even Robbie Lawler and Rory MacDonald don't have any physical characteristic that seems intrinsic to how they approach fighting. Lesnar's entire style, however, was built around maximizing the effects of his size and power advantage over his opponents. Roy Nelson's was about finding ways to apply his punching power. Neither of them had any other path to victory when that was denied. You're right in that it's not a binary thing. Fighters can be more or less dependent on their attributes, but "in good shape" isn't a noteworthy attribute for a pro fighter.
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Jan 26, 2018 16:40
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CommonShore posted:Fighters can be more or less dependent on their attributes, but "in good shape" isn't a noteworthy attribute for a pro fighter. my guy, have you seen the heavyweight division?
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Jan 26, 2018 17:50
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Tezcatlipoca posted:A fighter who relies heavily on their attributes to win. Renan Barao and Brock Lesnar are attribute fighters. Cody McKenzie is the opposite of an attribute fighter. Cody McKenzie absolutely relies heavily on his freaky long arms to guillotine dudes.
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Jan 26, 2018 18:05
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Grifter posted:Isn't this basically every fighter who is good though? Anderson used a great chin, insane reflexes and his long body type to great effect. He also happened to have amazing pinpoint striking and good jiu jitsu but it's hard to deny that his physical gifts enabled his style. Mighty Mouse has a great well rounded skill set but it wouldn't work if he wasn't also quick as hell and generally athletic. This mostly sounds like a way of putting down fighters that people don't like. "Oh yeah, Jon Jones won a lot but he just did it with his attributes unlike the hard working Randy Couture". even if it was true the fighters who have the best bodies are the hardest workers anyway. like yoel romero and souza etc.
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Jan 26, 2018 18:27
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1st AD posted:Cody McKenzie absolutely relies heavily on his freaky long arms to guillotine dudes. This is a spectrum. Every dude around UFC level is going to have some type of athletic and skill advantage over average people. But McKenzie compared to the top 25 of whichever division he is giving blood for this time is at an extreme athletic disadvantage. Prime example is Mendes blasting a hole through his guts. Tezcatlipoca fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 19:04
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Tezcatlipoca posted:This is a spectrum. Every dude around UFC level is going to have some type of athletic and skill advantage over average people. But McKenzie compared to the top 25 of whichever division he is giving blood for this time is at an extreme athletic disadvantage. Prime example is Mendes blasting a hole through his guts. what's up with your custom title
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Jan 26, 2018 19:08
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1st AD posted:what's up with your custom title The same stalker who has been giving lowtax money for years because she got rejected by some guy I've had no contact with for a decade.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:34
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LobsterMobster posted:my guy, have you seen the heavyweight division? They're not pro fighters. They're supperweight punchmen. 
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Jan 26, 2018 20:08
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Neon Belly posted:You're starting to sound like Joe Rogan now CommonShore posted:The difference is that an attribute fighter builds the style and success around that specific physical attribute. Jon Fitch and Rick Story are extreme examples of fighters who don't have many noteworthy attributes. Even Robbie Lawler and Rory MacDonald don't have any physical characteristic that seems intrinsic to how they approach fighting. quote:You're right in that it's not a binary thing. Fighters can be more or less dependent on their attributes, but "in good shape" isn't a noteworthy attribute for a pro fighter. I.N.R.I posted:even if it was true the fighters who have the best bodies are the hardest workers anyway. like yoel romero and souza etc.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:25
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Punching power is werid because some people are absolutely born with it. Obviously you can train to be better but it seems to vary wildly
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Jan 26, 2018 22:01
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Grifter posted:I think that once you reach really elite levels of athletic competition you have to have some combination of hard working, physical gifts, skills, attitude and some other advantages to really get there. I think it devalues fighters to shrink them down to just being one particular physical attribute. Jon Jones has a huge wingspan and that enables him to do crazy things like use elbows as punches but he still wouldn't be able to do that without building up skills with those elbows. People like the Diazes have great attributes in their awesome cardio but that wouldn't mean much without those hours of hitting the bag. Totally agree. There's probably dudes out there that do BJJ as often or more than Maia, but they're lacking something to be as successful as he is
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Jan 26, 2018 22:23
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Grifter posted:Less to do with physical attributes and more to do with them only having one gameplan, or only one set of skills around which they can build a gameplan. It's almost like their game plan relies on those physical gifts, hmm.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:37
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vainman posted:Punching power is werid because some people are absolutely born with it. Obviously you can train to be better but it seems to vary wildly it can be attributed to so many things.... like a lot of wrestlers with a great shot collect many KOs with overhand rights and be considered a serious KO artist and power puncher then theres guys like chuck and JDS who are KO artists and do it with multiple limbs but you can't separate their power and timing because we've all seen how their shots hit pinpoint accurate when they get KOs a lot of times i dunno which group has more raw power cuz its all kinda from technique
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Jan 27, 2018 04:25
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Neon Belly posted:What is an 'attribute fighter'? it means their elite skills are their physical gifts
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Jan 27, 2018 04:31
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Bundt Cake posted:it can be attributed to so many things.... like a lot of wrestlers with a great shot collect many KOs with overhand rights and be considered a serious KO artist and power puncher I loved the stories of Chuck Liddell hitting people so hard they'd see white and think they got eye poked.
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Jan 27, 2018 04:33
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Grifter posted:I think that once you reach really elite levels of athletic competition you have to have some combination of hard working, physical gifts, skills, attitude and some other advantages to really get there. I think it devalues fighters to shrink them down to just being one particular physical attribute. Jon Jones has a huge wingspan and that enables him to do crazy things like use elbows as punches but he still wouldn't be able to do that without building up skills with those elbows. People like the Diazes have great attributes in their awesome cardio but that wouldn't mean much without those hours of hitting the bag. tim sylvia used his massive reach advantage to stay on the outside against even completely overmatched fighters and it was lovely and awful for a guy being tall to be the most important thing in mma. Jon Jones used steroids. Err I mean Jon Jones used his reach advantage to do a crazy back elbow in his loss to Bonnar, the GnP elbow on shogun from 10,000 miles away, and break Glovers arm with a move I've never seen before. to me thats kinda the point of the phrase attribute fighter. not that every fighter with great attributes is poo poo but that some guys would be completely hosed if they didn't have some insane gift If Barao's recovery and chin weren't amazing combined with fantastic cardio and power, he'd have been poo poo
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Jan 27, 2018 04:37
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Bundt Cake posted:If Barao's recovery and chin weren't amazing combined with fantastic cardio and power, he'd have been poo poo 
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Jan 27, 2018 19:33
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Barao was/is good even if manyak didnt like that he had good cardio or whatever
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Jan 27, 2018 22:45
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If he was shorter, weaker, slower, had less energy, and didnt land as many strikes he wouldnt even be good.
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Jan 27, 2018 23:00
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david carmichael posted:shorter, weaker, slower Please don't doxx me.
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Jan 27, 2018 23:51
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david carmichael posted:If he was shorter, weaker, slower, had less energy, and didnt land as many strikes he wouldnt even be good. its more like if he couldnt withstand huge shots and recover from getting nearly KOd so much he wouldnt have been at the top, since it happened so often. Bundt Cake fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Jan 28, 2018 |
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Jan 28, 2018 00:13
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