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Thinking about it, one of the other great Wesley Snipes movies of the 90s, Demolition Man, nails the characters before the title scene.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:12
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Shoot 'Em Up? The best scene in Shoot 'Em Up is when Clive Owen shoots out the letters in a big neon sign so it reads "FUK U" then growls, "gently caress you, you loving fuckers!" before he makes his getaway.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:14
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X-Ray Pecs posted:Die Hard I think he berates himself with "Nice job John....real fuckin' mature" right near the 20 minute mark, so good catch.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:17
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Both of the first two Terminators, easily. You get the Future War stuff immediately juxtaposed with the time travel back to the “modern” setting, and the main antagonists and protagonists are set up fairly quickly. Like, those movies really hit the ground running.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:18
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I think he berates himself with "Nice job John....real fuckin' mature" right near the 20 minute mark, so good catch. Most of his character work is done before he even gets up to the party, Argyle pretty much describes who John is during the limo ride. Die Hard has dope action scenes, but people overlook just how great and efficient its script is, especially for a 2 hour+ genre movie.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:20
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X-Ray Pecs posted:Most of his character work is done before he even gets up to the party, Argyle pretty much describes who John is during the limo ride. Die Hard has dope action scenes, but people overlook just how great and efficient its script is, especially for a 2 hour+ genre movie. Well, I think a big part of the character is the self doubt and the making mistakes. Him screaming "come the gently caress down here and arrest me!" and "I'll kiss your fuckin' dalmatian!" really sells the idea that he's in WAY over his head, this is not your Arnie/Stallone macho action guy. And of course everything he says before the fire hose scene. (also the litany of profanity he lets out and the fact that he seems genuinely psychotically angry when he's fighting Carl.)
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Jan 31, 2018 22:24
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X-Ray Pecs posted:Most of his character work is done before he even gets up to the party, Argyle pretty much describes who John is during the limo ride. Die Hard has dope action scenes, but people overlook just how great and efficient its script is, especially for a 2 hour+ genre movie. Probably like a lot of people, I rewatched Die Hard last December for the holidays. One of the things I really noticed that I had never thought about before is how good of a job Willis does of acting like a cop on the beginning. If you watch him and watch what he’s watching, he’s always quietly observant of everyone and everything he comes across at Nakatomi. Like when they bust in on Ellis doing coke, there’s this brief moment where John looks him over as Takagi is talking, and it totally conveys that he’s got Ellis’ number. I have a couple of cops in my family, and his demeanor throughout the opening is spot on.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:26
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X-Ray Pecs posted:Most of his character work is done before he even gets up to the party, Argyle pretty much describes who John is during the limo ride. Die Hard has dope action scenes, but people overlook just how great and efficient its script is, especially for a 2 hour+ genre movie. Yea its all like 90% established in that scene with Argyle, which is just amazing script work and also great acting. There are so many other lesser movies where that dialogue would not feel naturalistic and would come off as an info dump. Only thing that's left for the party itself is that John and Holly meet and we get to see the real state of their relationship. Which starts when he sees the employee directory and then they argue about it a few minutes later. But the reason that part can be so succinct is because of the limo ride scene.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:28
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Basebf555 posted:Yea its all like 90% established in that scene with Argyle, which is just amazing script work and also great acting. There are so many other lesser movies where that dialogue would not feel naturalistic and would come off as an info dump. The real brilliance is that it’s not John dumping his life story on Argyle, it’s Argyle guessing John’s story. It sets up John’s character, Argyle’s intuition, and lets the audience know what’s going on. Also, like you said, the acting is great.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:38
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So, because of this thread I've been watching some action movies again. Thanks for that. Today I watched Man on Fire again, and drat if it isn't some drat good movie. The chemistry between Denzel and Dakota is awesome, and he sells it really, really well. Add Christopher Walken and the dude from Casino Royale and it loving owns. Go see it if you haven't. The music is also great with the guitar thingies, and Denzel's walk is like some art or something, the way he walks the dog... I love it. 
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Jan 31, 2018 22:45
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As a side note on the subject of Die Hard, in my heart and mind there was never a Live Free Or Die Hard or A Good Day To Die Hard. Instead, the series ended with he most appropriate installment: Max Payne 3.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:48
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Fart City posted:Both of the first two Terminators, easily. You get the Future War stuff immediately juxtaposed with the time travel back to the “modern” setting, and the main antagonists and protagonists are set up fairly quickly. Like, those movies really hit the ground running. I think you mean hit the ground rolling. 
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Jan 31, 2018 22:52
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Is there a precise juncture in his career where Bruce Willis largely stopped playing scrappy underdogs who get the crap beaten out of them (the first three Die Hards, The Last Boy Scout, Pulp Fiction, The Fifth Element to some degree) in his action movie roles in favour of being all gruff and stern and scowly all the time?
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Jan 31, 2018 22:58
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Honestly, I think it was right around The Whole Nine Yards when he figured out he could still get paid for putting on an absolute minimum effort, with stuff like Moonrise Kingdom or maybe Looper being the exception.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:02
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Wheat Loaf posted:Is there a precise juncture in his career where Bruce Willis largely stopped playing scrappy underdogs who get the crap beaten out of them (the first three Die Hards, The Last Boy Scout, Pulp Fiction, The Fifth Element to some degree) in his action movie roles in favour of being all gruff and stern and scowly all the time? 16 Blocks was another Bruce Willis underdog movie, and feels more like Die Hard than Live Free... did. That said, I need to revisit Live Free... again, now that I'm a big fan of Timothy Olyphant from Justified and Deadwood, Maggie Q from Nikita, and Mary Elizabeth Winstead from Scott Pilgrim, Fargo, and her Got a Girl album.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:04
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Die Hard is a legitimately brilliant movie. If I was teaching film I'd use it to teach, because literally every aspect of it is really well done. We're talking about the scripting, but the production design is amazing, the way they put real thought into the aesthetics of every part of the tower and they feel distinct, and the way that feeds into the audience having a very clear sense of geography. Apparently the vault is the only curved surface anywhere in the building. Then there's the way the action scenes are all a series of understandable character decisions based on their circumstances and options, rather than stuff just happening. It even conceals it's one action cheat really well. (It's John being under the table and the baddie not just shooting through the table)Fart City posted:I... honestly can’t of anything I would change in the first Blade movie. Like, you wouldn’t really think of it as a “perfect” movie, but for what it is and what genre it’s a part of... it’s pretty goddamn close to perfect. It slows down a little in the middle, but that's easy to owe to the fact that it was 1998, it was a character that wasn't Superman or Batman, and you had to make sure the audience was keeping up. 4 years later, Blade 2 is full of completely insane poo poo and never slows down for a moment. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Well, I think a big part of the character is the self doubt and the making mistakes. Him screaming "come the gently caress down here and arrest me!" and "I'll kiss your fuckin' dalmatian!" really sells the idea that he's in WAY over his head, this is not your Arnie/Stallone macho action guy. It's the same kind of efficient character work that makes Jackie Chan's work so good. They're a person doing a thing, it's not just an action scene that's happening. Wheat Loaf posted:Shoot 'Em Up? Shoot em up would be a lot better if Clive Owen didn't look completely bored the whole movie.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:05
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Well, I think a big part of the character is the self doubt and the making mistakes. Him screaming "come the gently caress down here and arrest me!" and "I'll kiss your fuckin' dalmatian!" really sells the idea that he's in WAY over his head, this is not your Arnie/Stallone macho action guy. ”I’m gonna kill ya, then I’m gonna cook ya, and then I’m gonna fuckin EAT ya” is soooo loving good.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:10
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Snowman_McK posted:
He sells the lines like "gently caress you, you loving fuckers" and "eat your veggies" with his deadpan performance though
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Jan 31, 2018 23:12
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Fart City posted:”I’m gonna kill ya, then I’m gonna cook ya, and then I’m gonna fuckin EAT ya” is soooo loving good. They completely dropped this aspect of the character going forward, right? Like it's one of my favorite things in a movie: how mad, how supremely pissed, how insanely murderously angry do you have to be to hang a guy from a chain? The answer is: that mad. There's also the part when John falls to the ground after he hooks Karl on the chain, you're like "oh it's the last of his his energy, he's gassed" then he just gets up, checks his ammo (underrated badass moment right here, he's covered in blood and sells getting absolutely focused), and charges up the stairs to save the people. I love how the movie basically gets him worked into a heroic frenzy and he blows all his energy in a mad dash to save the hostages. Afterwards he's completely wrecked. A little bit of it is a put-on to disarm Hans....but not that much.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:26
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Wandle Cax posted:He sells the lines like "gently caress you, you loving fuckers" and "eat your veggies" with his deadpan performance though It's a fun movie, but he doesn't seem to be sure which movie he's in. I've always thought that Owen had a very narrow skillset. He's really good as dispassionate anti-heros (he's great in Croupier) but struggles anywhere else.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:27
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Well, I think a big part of the character is the self doubt and the making mistakes. Him screaming "come the gently caress down here and arrest me!" and "I'll kiss your fuckin' dalmatian!" really sells the idea that he's in WAY over his head, this is not your Arnie/Stallone macho action guy.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:28
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Payndz posted:Which is why the current idea for Die Hard 6 being a "young John McClane's first big explosive adventure!" story is so loving terrible. Yes, McClane's a New York cop and probably a pretty good one who's handled a fair amount of trouble, but everything he does in the first movie makes it 100% clear that dealing with murderous international terrorists is way beyond his experience. Of all the 80s action movies that shouldn't have got a sequel (or, maybe one) Die Hard shouldn't have got one the most. It's a great one off about a fish out of water, just as an action movie. Having it be a series about the same guy having it happen again and again would be like a second 'Green Room' movie.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:35
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Payndz posted:Which is why the current idea for Die Hard 6 being a "young John McClane's first big explosive adventure!" story is so loving terrible. Yes, McClane's a New York cop and probably a pretty good one who's handled a fair amount of trouble, but everything he does in the first movie makes it 100% clear that dealing with murderous international terrorists is way beyond his experience. Yeah one of the smartest things about Die Hard is they find like 10 ways to convey an idea. McClane isn't just out of his depth, the poor fucker isn't even wearing shoes!
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Jan 31, 2018 23:38
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Yeah one of the smartest things about Die Hard is they find like 10 ways to convey an idea. McClane isn't just out of his depth, the poor fucker isn't even wearing shoes! "I'm on vacation!" is the catchphrase of the man who went to Moscow to watch his son be put on trial for murder. 
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Feb 1, 2018 21:47
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It's really funny to me that the only Die Hard movie that was specifically written to be a Die Hard movie is the one without any redeeming aspects.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:00
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Snowman_McK posted:Of all the 80s action movies that shouldn't have got a sequel (or, maybe one) Die Hard shouldn't have got one the most. It's a great one off about a fish out of water, just as an action movie. Having it be a series about the same guy having it happen again and again would be like a second 'Green Room' movie. See also: First Blood. If you take the first movie as what it is, as a stand-alone project, like Die Hard it makes very little sense to franchise. And I say that as somebody who appreciates Rambo as the godfuck insane guilty pleasure that it is. But I mean, really, when it comes to major tentpole action franchises, I suppose very few first installments feel naturally built for a sequel. Like, maybe Lethal Weapon? Even Terminator had to basically switch genres from horror/thriller to full-on action mode to work.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:01
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Fart City posted:If you take the first movie as what it is, as a stand-alone project, like Die Hard it makes very little sense to franchise.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:03
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Some action movies built for a franchise: Raiders of the Lost Ark Dredd Blade Some ones that weren't: Taken The Matrix Speed
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Feb 1, 2018 22:07
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Fun idea: Everyone complains about remakes, but what movies actually deserve to be remade? I'd like to see Scanners remade without Stephen Lack.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:08
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I love how the movie basically gets him worked into a heroic frenzy and he blows all his energy in a mad dash to save the hostages. Afterwards he's completely wrecked. A little bit of it is a put-on to disarm Hans....but not that much. "HAAAAAAAAAAANS" is one of the best line deliveries in action movie history. So much anger and fatigue.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:09
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LesterGroans posted:It's really funny to me that the only Die Hard movie that was specifically written to be a Die Hard movie is the one without any redeeming aspects. The extended car chase is pretty cool, but it's wrapped in an awful movie. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Some ones that weren't: I'm going to disagree with you there. I feel like they always planned to do a sequel, but the one we got wasn't supposed to be two films. It's why it feels stretched and all the massive action scenes aren't actually connected to any plot points, while the actual plot points have one and a half minute fights scenes and whatever the hell happened in the rain. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 22:10
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Halloween Jack posted:Fun idea: Everyone complains about remakes, but what movies actually deserve to be remade? I’d for sure say one that you’ve already mentioned: Highlander. It’s got an insane amount of potential, if it was rebooted with an actual roadmap of sorts. Somewhere out there is a really great, atmospheric adaption of The Shadow waiting to be made. Probably not a coincidence both were directed by Russell Mulcahey.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:16
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Snowman_McK posted:The extended car chase is pretty cool, but it's wrapped in an awful movie. It's utterly numbing, because it doesn't build in intensity as it progresses - it's just full-on SMASH SMASH SMASH from start to finish, with really obnoxious shaky-cam that, unlike how Paul Greengrass used it in the Bourne films, doesn't lead the eye to what you're supposed to be looking at from shot to shot but instead fills the screen with tons of slate-grey clutter. I also discovered from a related video that a surprising amount of it was either entirely CG or pretty much everything on screen bar a couple of vehicles was digital. Which means it was designed to be that lovely and confusing. And McClane is in a truck which barrel-rolls four or five times as it crashes - then he gets out with barely a scratch, is hit by a car, steals someone else's SUV and carries on the chase, ending up deliberately crashing and rolling again without giving a poo poo. It's not the sequel to Unbreakable, for gently caress's sake. Small Strange Bird fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 22:25
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Some action movies built for a franchise: I also disagree with The Matrix because the first one can be viewed as an origin movie for a superhero. It wouldn't have been acceptable to drag the origin out the entire length of the movie had Neo already been an established superhero from comics or elsewhere but it worked fine to introduce him like that. The problem with the sequels is that they were afraid of his power so he is effectively neutered for most of the sequels.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:26
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Fart City posted:I’d for sure say one that you’ve already mentioned: Highlander. It’s got an insane amount of potential, if it was rebooted with an actual roadmap of sorts. Chad Stahelski (John Wick) is working on a Highlander reboot.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:30
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Lobok posted:The problem with the sequels is that they were afraid of his power so he is effectively neutered for most of the sequels. The worst take I've ever heard on the Matrix sequels, and probably on all action movies ever, is that the Matrix sequels shouldn't have Neo doing kung fu because he transcended the need for that in the ending of The Matrix.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:36
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Functionally Neo doesn't need it, though. That's why I'm saying The Matrix was not built for a franchise. It ends with Neo literally defying death, being invincible, untouchable, being able to blow the system apart from the inside (a visual metaphor that caps the movie's MASSIVE anti-authority angle) and finally crashing the system and transforming into Superman and flying directly out of the screen. There's nowhere to go from there, the movie is complete, the themes fully explored, the questions answered. Stuff like Dredd and Indy and even Star Wars frame themselves as a journey of character growth.The movie ends and the antagonist is beaten in the short term but the character can still learn more. Indy finds his faith, abandons "fortune and glory", reconnects with his dad. Dredd learns to appreciate the soft touch. But The Matrix ends with Neo crashing the system, by all measures in complete control, transcending the idea of human limitations and literally throws it in your face on the way out the door. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 22:43
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I kind of liked the sheer balls of dismissing Neo's transcendence in Reloaded with the line "Huh, upgrades" before getting back to the kung-fu.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:50
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I don't disagree, but if you're going to make a Matrix sequel, it had better have kung fu fighting. Like, imagine someone saying that there's no plausible or logical reason for Harry Callahan to be on the street after the first movie, and Magnum Force is a lousy movie because he doesn't spend the whole film in a desk job.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:55
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Magnum Force is kinda like Rambo: First Blood Part II, where it goes the exact opposite direction as the first movie.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:57
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