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They can be exactly you without being the you instance of you. You're so hung up on identity you're missing that there's more to life. (No, NOT a soul) A human being experiences suffering. A USB drive does not. A human has something that USB drives don't, even without souls. That subjective experience is why suffering and death are bad things. Not because information is lost.
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Feb 15, 2018 17:28
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What separates a human from a usb drive, assuming no souls? According to your perspective life doesn't exist and we're just as non-living as USB drives. Data isn't life. My SSD isn't alive.
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Feb 15, 2018 17:29
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Zaphod42 posted:They can be exactly you without being the you instance of you. Yeah, they're a separate instance. But GB's point is that there is no difference between the separate instances. You can have subjective experience, nothing GB is saying invalidates that. In fact, accepting that all copies can have subjective experiences is kind of a prerequisite to what he's saying - otherwise it's abundantly clear which is the original and which is the copy.
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Feb 15, 2018 17:50
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Yeah, they're a separate instance. But GB's point is that there is no difference between the separate instances. That's the whole nothingburger of this argument. Zaphod is using 'you' to mean 'subjective experiencer' instead of 'entity with same mental structure'. For Zaphod, forking a person means creating two distinct 'you's, while for a lot of people, it's one 'you' that is two separate subjective experiencers. It's a 10-page argument that's secretly about pronoun semantics.
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Feb 15, 2018 17:55
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Yeah, they're a separate instance. But GB's point is that there is no difference between the separate instances. There has to be SOMETHING different about them in order for them to be separate instances. Their internal state is identical yes, but the fact we can say "instance A and instance B" means on some level they aren't the same thing. You guys keep thinking that internal state is all there is to something, that's not it. There's also the physical thing holding that state. Two different USB manufacturers can make two different USB sticks with different materials that hold the same data state. One can have a steel case, the other one plastic. You can't say "they're both plastic" and you can't say "they're both steel" so you can't say "they're the same thing". The data is the same, but the thing holding the data is part of what allows that data to exist in our physical universe. You can't have the state without the thing that holds or maintains that state. You can't just separate the two and say that information is all that matters. We live in a physical universe, not a conceptual universe. And the "thing holding the data" isn't just the sleeve, its the active process that creates thought. Which involves the electrical signals bouncing around your brain as much as it involves the dendrites that store knowledge and memories. That same process could exist in another sleeve or a robot body even, but if that process is killed, that's death.
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Feb 15, 2018 19:30
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Zaphod42 posted:What separates a human from a usb drive, assuming no souls? this is why star trek guy on black mirror did nothing wrong
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Feb 15, 2018 19:32
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a foolish pianist posted:That's the whole nothingburger of this argument. Zaphod is using 'you' to mean 'subjective experiencer' instead of 'entity with same mental structure'. For Zaphod, forking a person means creating two distinct 'you's, while for a lot of people, it's one 'you' that is two separate subjective experiencers. It's a 10-page argument that's secretly about pronoun semantics. No its not about pronouns though, its about whether or not one of the "yous" experiences death. You guys are saying that if there's 2 of somebody, that killing one means nothing has happened because the other still exists. That doesn't make sense. You don't get to go back in time and stop the copy from ever existing. And if you think its one consciousness controlling two instances, then like I said before, does that mean double-sleeves can communicate telepathically with each other, since they're the same consciousness having 2 subjective experiences? How can you have one person be simultaneously two people? Its two instances of the person, not one person in two instances. Two instances of the person that act the same and have the same memories until their experiences diverge, but they're separate. And that means when you kill one, it doesn't merge with the other one and it doesn't go back in time and cease from ever existing; it means it died.
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Feb 15, 2018 19:34
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Zaphod42 posted:Nah this still exists even without souls, don't let him saying "maybe there are souls" distract you. You still have the death problem with zero souls. I don't believe in souls. Oh my god dude, you are hilarious. You 1000% do believe in souls, you've been arguing their existence for days, you just choose to define it as a sense of self and agency while failing to grasp that they are identical to anybody outside of your sphere of genius nuance.
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Feb 15, 2018 19:34
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maskenfreiheit posted:this is why star trek guy on black mirror did nothing wrong You can have life without a biological body though. People in a simulation are still alive. People as altered carbon however are dead. Once you spin them up, you definitely did something wrong. That's the whole point of SOMA.
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Feb 15, 2018 19:35
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bring back old gbs posted:Oh my god dude, you are hilarious. You 1000% do believe in souls, you've been arguing their existence for days, you just choose to define it as a sense of self and agency while failing to grasp that they are identical to anybody outside of your sphere of genius nuance. No. You don't get to define terms for other people. I don't believe in anything after death. I don't believe in anything outside this universe. I believe in physical neurons which create a self-referential loop of subjective experience. That isn't a soul. A soul is some consciousness from another universe or plane that continues on to some afterlife after you're gone. THAT mentality is more matching the "my SELF will experience anywhere my state is booted up" that battuta believes in. My beliefs is that as soon as the process stops you're dead and gone and there's nothing there. Oh my god dude, you are hilarious. You 1000% do believe in death and copies, you've been arguing their existence for days, you just choose to define it as not being death and defining consciousness as non-life while failing to grasp that death still occurs according to the definition of life that everybody outside of this thread uses.
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Feb 15, 2018 19:36
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Zaphod42 posted:You can have life without a biological body though. People in a simulation are still alive. People as altered carbon however are dead. Once you spin them up, you definitely did something wrong. That's the whole point of SOMA. No because it’s a simulation. Human rights are for humans
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Feb 15, 2018 19:48
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Good job guys, the show is now retroactively terrible because of this thread.
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Feb 15, 2018 20:10
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Ok I finished the series yesterday and have softened my stance somewhat. The last few episodes are messy but they never get as bad as Ep 7 and there's some pretty cool moments in there. I actually came around on Rei being Tak's sister. It makes the conflict more personal, and it shows how utterly corrupting the power of the Meth's is. I would have liked it more if she was less crazy about getting Tak back though, and was just using him. After all it took her 250 years to get him out of prison, would have made more sense if her love for him was just a ploy. Her showing up in Ortega's body was pretty creepy though. Quel continued to be the worst part of the show though. her extremely on-the-nose story about the princess had me rolling my eyes hard. Tak: "tell me a story that doesn't end in misery and death" Quel: "it was a time of horrible war. There was a princess and she was brutally killed in battle, but maybe not. The end." So I don't really know how to feel. I maybe had my expectations too high. I find TV shows often disappoint me compared to movies, it seems there's very few shows that can do storytelling as well as the best movies out there. Altered Carbon is frustrating cause it had the potential to go there but there's just a lot of stuff that doesn't feel quite right to me. I do hope the series continues to be at least decent because I will take as much cyberpunk media as I can get. As for the philosophical conversation, one of the things I like about AC (the book and the series), is that rather than explore these old philosophical questions that have been shown in tons of sci-fi already, it focuses on finding out what a society based on this technology would be like. Concepts like the Envoys (in the book) and Meth's having automatic backups are really cool.
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Feb 15, 2018 20:22
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From the EW article posted a few pages back (that I skipped because  discussion) - http://ew.com/tv/2018/02/12/altered-carbon-season-2-finale/quote:EW: Our critic Darren Franich was like: What would be cool is if Kovacs was spun-up again in season 2 and the only sleeve available was Reileen’s… I know it's been mentioned a few times that the show just doesn't get the reasoning behind various things in the book... this seems like a good example. All the RD's being tossed about, instead of the more interesting "What if all these characters had to show up in new sleeves all the time?" It barely scratches the surface of that idea; to not even consider the main character whose defining trait is showing up in different bodies...?
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Feb 15, 2018 20:55
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Zaphod42 posted:No. You don't get to define terms for other people. I don't believe in anything after death. I don't believe in anything outside this universe. I believe in physical neurons which create a self-referential loop of subjective experience. That isn't a soul. ay yi yi quote:you just choose to define it as a sense of self and agency while failing to grasp that they are identical to anybody outside of your sphere of genius nuance. you aren't some enlightened sage, you are a guy who confused a dictionary with a thesaurus
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Feb 15, 2018 21:02
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Blisster posted:Altered Carbon is frustrating cause it had the potential to go there but there's just a lot of stuff that doesn't feel quite right to me. I do hope the series continues to be at least decent because I will take as much cyberpunk media as I can get. if AC manages to get those audience numbers high enough that ends up inspiring someone to try a good Neuromancer adaptation, all is forgiven
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Feb 15, 2018 21:18
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bring back old gbs posted:ay yi yi They are not and several goons have posted ITT agreeing with me that the copies, that bancroft, that alt-kovacs do actually die. In fact, if anybody has a problem with a little sphere its you and battuta. You aren't a know it all about the nature of the universe you're just a guy who writes off death as irrelevant as long as at least one copy survives.
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Feb 15, 2018 22:27
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A live body and a dead body contain the same number of particles. Structurally, there's no discernible difference. Life and death are unquantifiable abstracts. Why should I be concerned?
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Feb 15, 2018 22:59
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Just finished the show. I didn't enjoy it. What's with the lifeless sleeves just sitting around. Don't they at least require a cardiac cycle and some kind of vegetative state to prevent decomposition and muscle loss?
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Feb 15, 2018 23:29
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Maybe someone is hired to take the vacant sleeves for a spin round the block once in a while - get some air, stretch the legs. Smoke 'em, if you got 'em.
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Feb 15, 2018 23:40
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SpaceAceJase posted:Just finished the show. I didn't enjoy it. Were you not paying attention? That part of the show was sponsored by Ziploc.
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Feb 15, 2018 23:42
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But seriously, banging yourself in a second body?
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Feb 15, 2018 23:43
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Rhyno posted:But seriously, banging yourself in a second body? I guess you’d retroactively believe you’re a terrible lay after calling them lying bitches all these years.
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Feb 15, 2018 23:46
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SpaceAceJase posted:Just finished the show. I didn't enjoy it. Clones in the vaults are maintained by regular electrical impulses. They evem stste this in the series the first time they visit Bancroft's vault. Regular sleeves just get stored cryogenically on life support.
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Feb 16, 2018 00:44
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Clones in the vaults are maintained by regular electrical impulses. They evem stste this in the series the first time they visit Bancroft's vault. Regular sleeves just get stored cryogenically on life support. didn't the bad guy from shadows of the empire have a similar sort of electric ab machine?
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Feb 16, 2018 00:53
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Rhyno posted:But seriously, banging yourself in a second body? Rank in order of preference: - clone - self from alternate dimension - self from future and/or past - computer simulation of self
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Feb 16, 2018 01:09
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Elissimpark posted:Rank in order of preference: Where does gender-swapped self fall into this or is that already a given?
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Feb 16, 2018 01:25
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Caganer posted:A live body and a dead body contain the same number of particles. Structurally, there's no discernible difference. Life and death are unquantifiable abstracts. Why should I be concerned? If I have the same number of particles you do and you die and I live, would you be concerned? Number of particles preserved is not how anybody defines death. Nor is "no discernible difference". If I killed you and replaced you with a robot that perfectly mimic'd you, then your family may be none the wiser and not be concerned. But you would be. (At least until you're dead)
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Feb 16, 2018 01:33
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Clones in the vaults are maintained by regular electrical impulses. They evem stste this in the series the first time they visit Bancroft's vault. Regular sleeves just get stored cryogenically on life support. What about all the bodies just sitting around in that sky city? Minutes without breathing would cause irreversible damage
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Feb 16, 2018 01:42
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SpaceAceJase posted:What about all the bodies just sitting around in that sky city? Minutes without breathing would cause irreversible damage You mean the explicitly-stated Synth bodies?
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Feb 16, 2018 01:47
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Zaphod42 posted:Number of particles preserved is not how anybody defines death. Nor is "no discernible difference". If I killed you and replaced you with a robot that perfectly mimic'd you, then your family may be none the wiser and not be concerned. But you would be. (At least until you're dead) It's almost like the character who said this had become so detached from the lived human experience, the quote was designed to shorthand his extreme degree of alienation.
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Feb 16, 2018 02:15
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Wow I never thought about but I’d def clone myself and genderswap the clone and then be like “yo” and after 9 straight days of drugs and loving I’m sure we’d be sick to death of each other and I’d just let her/me bounce. If we stuck it out... oh man the future is so crazy I wish we’d spent the last 900 posts talking about that
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Feb 16, 2018 02:18
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Bust Rodd posted:Wow I never thought about but I’d def clone myself and genderswap the clone and then be like “yo” and after 9 straight days of drugs and loving I’m sure we’d be sick to death of each other and I’d just let her/me bounce. Same.
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Feb 16, 2018 02:25
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You still seem to be considering this externally instead of from personal perspective, which is what we're trying to beat into you. Neddy Seagoon posted:Simple thought experiment (and no actual personal insult or harm intended towards you, just as an exercise); If someone sticks a knife in you and leaves you to die, are you going to be fine that a cloned Tiggum will be awake and none-the-wiser in an hour or two, or more concerned that you are about to die? Zaphod42 posted:Look at it this way, what if instead of death it was torture? Zaphod42 posted:But one of them dies and that sucks for that one. Regardless of if its the original or the copy. Zaphod42 posted:In fact Battuta's "you exist anywhere your state is, even if thousands of years later, even if not the same atoms or data or anything, even if 10,000 copies are made" seems to require a soul to me, because how else would consciousness transfer between physical bodies? Zaphod42 posted:They can be exactly you without being the you instance of you. Zaphod42 posted:What separates a human from a usb drive, assuming no souls? Zaphod42 posted:There has to be SOMETHING different about them in order for them to be separate instances. Their internal state is identical yes, but the fact we can say "instance A and instance B" means on some level they aren't the same thing. You guys keep thinking that internal state is all there is to something, that's not it. There's also the physical thing holding that state. Two different USB manufacturers can make two different USB sticks with different materials that hold the same data state. One can have a steel case, the other one plastic. You can't say "they're both plastic" and you can't say "they're both steel" so you can't say "they're the same thing". The data is the same, but the thing holding the data is part of what allows that data to exist in our physical universe. You can't have the state without the thing that holds or maintains that state. You can't just separate the two and say that information is all that matters. We live in a physical universe, not a conceptual universe. Zaphod42 posted:No its not about pronouns though, its about whether or not one of the "yous" experiences death. You guys are saying that if there's 2 of somebody, that killing one means nothing has happened because the other still exists. That doesn't make sense. You don't get to go back in time and stop the copy from ever existing. Zaphod42 posted:And if you think its one consciousness controlling two instances, then like I said before, does that mean double-sleeves can communicate telepathically with each other, since they're the same consciousness having 2 subjective experiences? Zaphod42 posted:How can you have one person be simultaneously two people? Its two instances of the person, not one person in two instances. Two instances of the person that act the same and have the same memories until their experiences diverge, but they're separate. And that means when you kill one, it doesn't merge with the other one and it doesn't go back in time and cease from ever existing; it means it died. Zaphod42 posted:No. You don't get to define terms for other people. I don't believe in anything after death. I don't believe in anything outside this universe. I believe in physical neurons which create a self-referential loop of subjective experience. That isn't a soul. Zaphod42 posted:My beliefs is that as soon as the process stops you're dead and gone and there's nothing there.
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Feb 16, 2018 02:25
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Zaphod42 posted:If I have the same number of particles you do and you die and I live, would you be concerned? it's a watchmen quote
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Feb 16, 2018 02:31
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Bust Rodd posted:Wow I never thought about but I’d def clone myself and genderswap the clone and then be like “yo” and after 9 straight days of drugs and loving I’m sure we’d be sick to death of each other and I’d just let her/me bounce. I still think it would be pretty gay to suck my own dick in a different body.
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Feb 16, 2018 02:33
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Syzygy Stardust posted:I still think it would be pretty gay to suck my own dick in a different body. Probably, but who gives a poo poo?
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Feb 16, 2018 02:37
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Syzygy Stardust posted:I still think it would be pretty gay to suck my own dick in a different body. Which is why I put forth to option to dual sleeve into a opposite sex clone.
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Feb 16, 2018 02:52
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Tiggum posted:Nothing transfers because "consciousness" isn't a thing. lol, we've finally hit paydirt Tiggum posted:Yes, exactly. "Life" is a meaningless distinction. Yeah, this is just crazytown. Caganer posted:it's a watchmen quote Ah right, Dr. Manhattan. I missed that, my b.
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Feb 16, 2018 03:09
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Tiggum posted:Nothing is "holding" the data and the data doesn't exist in our physical universe. How do computers work if nothing holds data and data doesn't exist in our universe? It does. That's the whole point. Data exists because things in the physical universe exist as substrates which can hold their state. RAM allows data to exist. USB sticks allow data to exist.
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Feb 16, 2018 03:11
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