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"We are Starfleet" loving goddamit. You have ideals! It's not - shouldn't be at least - a loving cult! It's never "no I'm not going to commit genocide, that's wrong" or even a sort of aspirational ideal eg "I couldn't call myself Starfleet if I participated in genocide". It's "no, Starfleet doesn't genocide! I'm Starfleet, ergo I'm good!" Which is the most horrifically cynical and morally ambiguous position for the loving show to take - it sidesteps morality entirely! There is absolutely nothing innately ethical about "Starfleet" - that is the loving point of the mirror universe! It's the ideals and actions of members of an organization that make it an ethical or unethical one - we don't do good things because we are the good guys, we're the good guys because we do good things. The show is too cowardly or shallow to actually come out against genocide- fortunately, because they completely pardon someone who gleefully admits to gunning down fleeing civilians after blowing up their loving planet and then hand genocide off to a crazy zealot so she can coerce an entire loving species into obedience! What if Klingon lady fails and winds up blowing up the planet, or it goes off accidentally or she has a stroke or a mental breakdown or something and hits the button- Starfleet still committed loving genocide, they just did so through the flimsiest proxy - apparently completely absolving them of responsibility in their minds? There's no actual consideration of morality - it's just "the things we do are correct because We Are Starfleet don't worry about it". No iota of introspection, no dissenting voices - the loving admiral who tried to kill billions of innocent people doesn't even get a slap on the loving wrist!
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Feb 16, 2018 14:06
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Picard didn't even have a concept of genocide and let a guy who killed an entire species go with a shrug and a well I guess we have no law against it
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Feb 16, 2018 14:11
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CoolCab posted:"We are Starfleet" loving goddamit. You have ideals! It's not - shouldn't be at least - a loving cult! It's never "no I'm not going to commit genocide, that's wrong" or even a sort of aspirational ideal eg "I couldn't call myself Starfleet if I participated in genocide". It's "no, Starfleet doesn't genocide! I'm Starfleet, ergo I'm good!" Which is the most horrifically cynical and morally ambiguous position for the loving show to take - it sidesteps morality entirely! But it's okay because there's swears and tits and people die in HD. PRESTIGE TELEVISION
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Feb 16, 2018 14:16
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Relax, they were never going to blow up Earth or Qo'noS. This is a prequel series, and we know both planets are decidedly non-blown up ten years down the road.
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Feb 16, 2018 14:17
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Cythereal posted:Relax, they were never going to blow up Earth or Qo'noS. This is a prequel series, and we know both planets are decidedly non-blown up ten years down the road. They could just Rick and Morty it with spores
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Feb 16, 2018 14:18
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shovelbum posted:Picard didn't even have a concept of genocide and let a guy who killed an entire species go with a shrug and a well I guess we have no law against it
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Feb 16, 2018 14:18
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FlamingLiberal posted:Kevin Uxbridge was practically omnipotent, I'm not sure how he would have been able to punish him really. Yeah it's really weird. I wonder if he left all those guys poo poo floating around for the scrappers. Probably a bad novel about it
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Feb 16, 2018 14:20
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shovelbum posted:Yeah it's really weird. I wonder if he left all those guys poo poo floating around for the scrappers. Probably a bad novel about it
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Feb 16, 2018 14:21
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FlamingLiberal posted:Kevin Uxbridge was practically omnipotent, I'm not sure how he would have been able to punish him really. Also he didn't eliminate a certain targeted group of people, he destroyed an entire sentient species, indiscriminately and simultaneously. Extinction as an act of snap rage is indeed a different case than genocide and a pretty big outlier from anything anyone in history had done before, or even been capable of.
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Feb 16, 2018 14:24
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McSpanky posted:Also he didn't eliminate a certain targeted group of people, he destroyed an entire sentient species, indiscriminately and simultaneously. Extinction as an act of snap rage is indeed a different case than genocide and a pretty big outlier from anything anyone in history had done before, or even been capable of. Chad Kevin Uxbridge vs incel Annorax
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Feb 16, 2018 14:26
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Well I'm glad Seth MacFarlane never got to control the Trek franchise because he built his career around "edgy" ironic racist jokes and "performative" misogyny. He'd be the most off-putting messenger of Trek utopian ideals. ("But Cosmos!" defenders would say.) I don't think MacFarlane's defenders aren't fully aware just how disliked he is by his detractors.
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Feb 16, 2018 14:51
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There are like 10 or more different "species" of God-like beings introduced so far, you would think there would quite a lot of apocalyptic god wars already, also any time the shows go "All life will END END I TELL YOU" atleast some of them would likely intervene and just stop the bullshit universe ending mad scientists or whatever. Now I wonder if Q of some kind will make an appearance.
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Feb 16, 2018 14:59
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CoolCab posted:"We are Starfleet" loving goddamit. You have ideals! It's not - shouldn't be at least - a loving cult! It's never "no I'm not going to commit genocide, that's wrong" or even a sort of aspirational ideal eg "I couldn't call myself Starfleet if I participated in genocide". It's "no, Starfleet doesn't genocide! I'm Starfleet, ergo I'm good!" Which is the most horrifically cynical and morally ambiguous position for the loving show to take - it sidesteps morality entirely!
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Feb 16, 2018 15:11
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CoolCab posted:"We are Starfleet" loving goddamit. You have ideals! It's not - shouldn't be at least - a loving cult! It's never "no I'm not going to commit genocide, that's wrong" or even a sort of aspirational ideal eg "I couldn't call myself Starfleet if I participated in genocide". It's "no, Starfleet doesn't genocide! I'm Starfleet, ergo I'm good!" Which is the most horrifically cynical and morally ambiguous position for the loving show to take - it sidesteps morality entirely! I think you are missing the mark. It was a problem because it wasn't earned. THIS IS Echo Chamber posted:I don't think MacFarlane's defenders aren't fully aware just how disliked he is by his detractors.
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Feb 16, 2018 15:28
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Echo Chamber posted:Well I'm glad Seth MacFarlane never got to control the Trek franchise because he built his career around "edgy" ironic racist jokes and "performative" misogyny. He'd be the most off-putting messenger of Trek utopian ideals. ("But Cosmos!" defenders would say.) Yes, Family Guy sucks. The Orville is still far better than STD.
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Feb 16, 2018 17:44
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Peachfart posted:Yes, Family Guy sucks. The Orville is still far better than STD. Yep. Even when the episodes fall kind of flat, Orville never once made me want to punch my screen for being idiotic. Or just skip through half the episode to avoid boring segments.
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Feb 16, 2018 17:52
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To be honest I skip all the scenes where Burnham looks anguished for more than 5 seconds.
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Feb 16, 2018 17:59
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lol
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Feb 16, 2018 18:14
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They probably have some equivalent to software that keeps your cat from typing on your keyboard to account for Riker's butt.
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Feb 16, 2018 18:17
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I'm honestly not sure how a TNG reboot would be received in 2018. On the one hand, tv nostalgia is at an all time high. There are constant reboots and continuations happening and folks (outside of reddit and forums like SA) seem to generally enjoy it and accept it. All of the TNG cast is still alive and they get along great, so you can easily bank on using them to promote a reboot and foster goodwill among fans. But as you said, I could easily see a Ghostbusters-esque level of backlash since TNG is still so recent and beloved in the minds of the general public. I'd watch a TNG sequel where Picard is an old admiral who putters around a starbase, write reports, and issues tasking orders for the fleet.
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Feb 16, 2018 18:28
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Procedural where Admiral Picard runs the Starfleet equivalent of JAG
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Feb 16, 2018 18:53
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PostNouveau posted:Procedural where Admiral Picard runs the Starfleet equivalent of JAG Picard as Jack McCoy? Yes please.
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Feb 16, 2018 18:55
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Echo Chamber posted:Well I'm glad Seth MacFarlane never got to control the Trek franchise because he built his career around "edgy" ironic racist jokes and "performative" misogyny. He'd be the most off-putting messenger of Trek utopian ideals. ("But Cosmos!" defenders would say.) Posted on SomethingAwful, original home of the Holocaust comedy Photoshop
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Feb 16, 2018 19:08
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The Bloop posted:I think you are missing the mark. It was a problem because it wasn't earned. I agree. I think that there is an interesting story to be told about the Federation/Starfleet "finding itself" after being lost in the woods because of a conflict that spiraled out of control. You could write a compelling story, in theory, about a Federation that, 10 years before TOS and 80 years before TNG, still has some growing up to do. They didn't really do that, though. The structure of the story that was told was terrible. And at times, the dialog was really half-assed. (I think there was better dialog in the first half of the season than the second - I may be in the minority but I loved Tilly blurting out that this was *loving awesome*. Being giddy to the point of profanity about science and exploration is the epitome of Star Trek.) My *hope* is that a lot of the issues with the show had to do with the infamously troubled production of the first season. My *hope* is that they settle down and start taking all of the headway they have (fantastic production design, a unique look, a good cast, a commitment to more serialized storytelling with Star Trek trappings) and actually write some good stuff. There's no reason to suggest they're incapable of making this show really good, but they might be like Berman/Braga and be unwilling to do so. We'll see.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:35
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ashpanash posted:(fantastic production design, a unique look, lmao
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Feb 16, 2018 19:49
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The end of the Klingon war was really dumb but I can handwave it away as the writers trying to find a quick way to abort Fuller's storyline in one episode and move onto something fresh for Season 2. The production issues on this season were so ridiculous that we probably won't know what Discovery actually is until next season. I'm not too happy with them immediately leaning on TOS nostalgia going into it though, because it feels unearned and completely at odds with what the show has been trying to do up to this point. STD's biggest issue is that it feels like too many cooks in the kitchen that don't know what dish they're trying to make or how to make it well, and that jarring tonal shift just reinforces that feeling.Echo Chamber posted:Well I'm glad Seth MacFarlane never got to control the Trek franchise because he built his career around "edgy" ironic racist jokes and "performative" misogyny. He'd be the most off-putting messenger of Trek utopian ideals. ("But Cosmos!" defenders would say.) If you want to know what Seth MacFarlane controlling the Trek franchise would look like, maybe you should actually watch The Orville instead of assuming it's Family Guy in space? Orville gets the spirit of Trek down to a T and it's pretty obvious looking at Seth's history and career that he's a super reverent fan of the franchise that understands its appeal and core ideals.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:17
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I wonder if in picard's time there's still someone plugging away at how to get a computer to be able to pilot a spore drive
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Feb 16, 2018 20:21
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HorseRenoir posted:The end of the Klingon war was really dumb but I can handwave it away as the writers trying to find a quick way to abort Fuller's storyline in one episode and move onto something fresh for Season 2. cheetah7071 posted:I wonder if in picard's time there's still someone plugging away at how to get a computer to be able to pilot a spore drive We have top men working on it. TOP. MEN.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:27
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The Bloop posted:I think you are missing the mark. It was a problem because it wasn't earned. THIS IS Genocide is bad - don't kill literally everybody - it's not a complex philosophical position and it doesn't require shorthand! Even "this is against Starfleet values - kindness, humanitarianism, not burning children alive and also what the gently caress is wrong with you" would be something! Starfleet is a military (...ish) organization, not a philosophical movement - Starfleet can change and be something horrible like the Terran empire in a heartbeat - no time at all. Had Tilly not absolutely ignored another fundamental Starfleet value and disobeyed orders to peek at the bomb it would have. She made a moral judgement - not because it was the Starfleet thing to do but because it was the right thing to do. It could have gotten her court martialed or killed but she did it anyway - that demonstrates character. You can't surrender your moral obligation to an external power - that's a cult. No the reason they don't get into it is as soon as someone says "boy, genocide is bad huh" it begs the loving question as to why we're giving the ability to do so to a loving crazy person. "Genocide - bad???" breaks their lovely resolution so instead the moral implication is totally nonsensical- it's bad for Starfleet to genocide cause Starfleet is Starfleet. Also it only counts if Starfleet pulls the trigger - both having commited genocide previously and allowing and/or enabling genocide is totally fine.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:30
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Tighclops posted:lmao You don't have to like the production design - but it's clear they went to a a lot of effort to have their own look and put a lot of money and high-quality work into set design and maintaining an overall filming style. Edit: As an example, I felt a lot of Westworld's production design was silly (it's the future so all offices are see-through!) but man, I respect the effort they put into it. ashpanash fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 20:31
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Arglebargle III posted:To be honest I skip all the scenes where Burnham looks anguished for more than 5 seconds. This is the one weird trick that makes this show remotely watchable
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Feb 16, 2018 20:37
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CoolCab posted:She made a moral judgement - not because it was the Starfleet thing to do but because it was the right thing to do. Honestly seems like you don't know the shorthand, either. Doing the right thing even against orders is absolutely the Star Fleet thing to do. Literally everyone that any Trek show has ever held up as a moral exemplar has disobeyed orders probably numerous times on screen. Spock, Kirk, Picard, Sisko, even Data! It wasn't Not starfleet to look in the box - she was under the command of Space Hitler and she knew it - she followed orders right up until they felt wrong and then followed her conscience. Very Star Fleet.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:42
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If someone spoke to me in an intensely anguished voice like she does in all her scenes all the time i'd not want to be their friend.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:43
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Shibawanko posted:If someone spoke to me in an intensely anguished voice like she does in all her scenes all the time i'd not want to be their friend. But she is the main character and has been through a lot and has a boy name and
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Feb 16, 2018 20:48
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HorseRenoir posted:If you want to know what Seth MacFarlane controlling the Trek franchise would look like, maybe you should actually watch The Orville instead of assuming it's Family Guy in space? Orville gets the spirit of Trek down to a T and it's pretty obvious looking at Seth's history and career that he's a super reverent fan of the franchise that understands its appeal and core ideals. I'm not a fan of "death of the author" in the metaphorical sense. I don't get the impressions Seth feels bad about how he built his brand in the first place. He made an even dumber version of South Park, enabled the trolls, held contempt for feminists and others who've complained about his work, and now wants to be the entertainment industry's respectable elder statesman. If Orville's the one thing stopping him from making Trek, then great.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:04
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The Bloop posted:Honestly seems like you don't know the shorthand, either. I think he has a point. This series wants to be about identity, and just about everyone and everything in it agonizes over such questions, and there’s nothing wrong with that by itself, but their attempt to tie this up with the war plot led to very wrong things. It essentially winds up the whole season by asking the question “is it more in keeping with our identity as a group that we should annihilate other cultures mercilessly, or force upon them tinpot dictators who can rule by the threat of merciless annihilation?” That’s a terrible question! Neither is in keeping with our identity. Both answers are execrable. If you can’t find another answer, your identity sucks. It winds up being a worse treatment of the Klingon war than the space Vietnam episode in TOS, because at least there Kirk realizes that what he’s doing is terrible and will ruin the entire planet. Burnham is ready to trumpet one solution as totally good and fine and way better than the other when it is neither good nor fine.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:05
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skasion posted:I think he has a point. This series wants to be about identity, and just about everyone and everything in it agonizes over such questions, and there’s nothing wrong with that by itself, but their attempt to tie this up with the war plot led to very wrong things. It essentially winds up the whole season by asking the question “is it more in keeping with our identity as a group that we should annihilate other cultures mercilessly, or force upon them tinpot dictators who can rule by the threat of merciless annihilation?” That’s a terrible question! Neither is in keeping with our identity. Both answers are execrable. If you can’t find another answer, your identity sucks. It winds up being a worse treatment of the Klingon war than the space Vietnam episode in TOS, because at least there Kirk realizes that what he’s doing is terrible and will ruin the entire planet. Burnham is ready to trumpet one solution as totally good and fine and way better than the other when it is neither good nor fine. I agree with all of this and think it was all handled terribly and the solution was rubbish. I'm just arguing against the idea that THIS IS STAR FLEET doesn't suggest a moral ideology. They cocked all the themes up tremendously, though.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:42
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ashpanash posted:You don't have to like the production design - but it's clear they went to a a lot of effort to have their own look You keep typing things that make me laugh, keep it up buddy it's been that kind of week I agree that they certainly went to a lot of effort. The Bloop posted:I agree with all of this and think it was all handled terribly and the solution was rubbish. This whole season feels kind of like that episode of Voyager where that one dude tries to rip off Seven's nanoprobes and it's clearly an allegory for rape and abuse victims except in the last 5 minutes it turns out it was all a hallucination and the accused dude accidentally kills himself (...?!) so the implication of the episode becomes abhorrent even though you're pretty sure that nobody writing the drat thing wanted it that way
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Feb 16, 2018 21:51
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Tighclops posted:This whole season feels kind of like that episode of Voyager where that one dude tries to rip off Seven's nanoprobes and it's clearly an allegory for rape and abuse victims except in the last 5 minutes it turns out it was all a hallucination and the accused dude accidentally kills himself (...?!) so the implication of the episode becomes abhorrent even though you're pretty sure that nobody writing the drat thing wanted it that way I agree. This season had a lot in common with a bad episode of Voyager.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:55
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Echo Chamber posted:I never said Orville was Family Guy. So, your point is that you are mad about a show Seth McFarlane made 18 years ago, when he was a kid, and has nothing to do with anymore except for voicing the dog? He doesn't seem to like Family Guy and was saying back in 2011 that it should die. His new show is good, and has none of the issues you are speaking of.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:56
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