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Aurubin posted:Ritual combat seems a poor way to appoint the head of the executive. From the way Shuri talked about it it sounds like it's been just like a formality the old heads push to continue doing. Shuri was p much mocking it the entire time. At least until the Ques came from the north.
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Feb 19, 2018 03:20
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democracy is a crap shoot at this point. but i guess people missed the whole council of tribes scenes all through out the movie
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Feb 19, 2018 03:25
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Ross is clearly acting in defiance of his superiors and is walking a thin line. He doesn't represent the authority of the US government, and is clearly acting as T'challa's confidant both from his initial scene and at the end of the film. He hasn't shared what he learned of Wakanda with his superiors (or else the delegates at the meeting T'challa is announcing Wakanda's new policies at), and when he first meets T'challa in the casino he says that he's been keeping the fact that he's basically Wakandan Batman under wraps. To use his role in the plot to say that the heroes are working and acting with the approval of the CIA organization, and that Everett Ross is not merely a flawed man and part of a supporting cast who exists to facilitate and mediate conflict as a secret keeper and confidant to keep his real actions covert and help him keep his autonomy is disingenuous. Ross is a small man who happens to be part of something bigger, and nothing is ever done with his approval - in fact, he only achieves anything in the movie at the approval of the Wakandans. They earn an ally, one who is willing to use his power and his station to help them; he is an ally within and against the system.
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Feb 19, 2018 03:26
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people also ignore that killmonger was cia trained and using cia tactics. the film was more a critique of the cia than people are willing to admit.
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Feb 19, 2018 03:27
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Marvel CIA is like a worse S.H.I.E.L.D, who even takes them seriously anyway.
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Feb 19, 2018 03:34
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temple posted:people also ignore that killmonger was cia trained and using cia tactics. the film was more a critique of the cia than people are willing to admit. This element of the plot seems rather overtly lifted from The Spook Who Sat By the Door, which, alternatively, is about a Kilmonger-esque character who uses his CIA-training to radicalize urban gangs and kickstart an anti-white supremacist movement in the U.S. By the Door also happens to have a T'Challa-esque figure, but who here is the supporting character, a childhood friend who is now attempting to 'work within the system' by becoming a police officer. Black Panther - explicitly evoking the BPP - leapfrogs from this very straightforward context to a mythical 'lost kingdom,' suggesting Garveyite 'back to Africa' themes. The irony is that, by doing this, the film compresses the ideological debate between revolutionary movements and neoliberalism into the context of a royal tragedy, and ends with the birthright neoliberal king slaying the grassroots revolutionary. This is, needless to say, the total opposite narrative of The Spook Who Sat by the Door, in which, instead of merely being 'critical' of the CIA, we are forced to confront the CIA not only as an anti-revolutionary counter-intelligence organization, but also as a mask of imperialism represented in all facets of American hegemony. Wakanda becomes a fantastical escapist setting where we are able to export both Kilmonger's revolutionary potential as well as this self-hating C.I.A. character. Here, Kilmonger's anger against the oppressor can be circumvented into a form that allows for the fulfillment of a plot right out of the counter-intelligence handbook: get 'em to fight amongst themselves, better yet kill each other off, in order to contain the pertinent threat of black revolution. Like, notice how confidently SatansBest spells out the film's message: "When you are in control of a powerful and wealthy nation, you should use that power to help people." This is the same, 'Ah shucks' attitude that pervaded the reception of Zootopia. The attempt to boil down the film's narrative into a clean moral just re-emphasizes the obvious reactionary implications of the film. The cops are still great, and they'll be even better when they integrate and have sensitivity training. 'Wakanda' made all its own problems by trying to envelope themselves from 'the real world,' but after a hard emotional trial, T'Challa is ready to take it into a bold new political future. There is no message, the film teaches revolutionary struggle as inviable with 'true progress' of the kind only T'Challa can be left alive to inherit. All that matters is if this escapist kingdom perseveres in the collective imaginary, and thus reciprocally recognizes the paramount perseverance of American hegemony.
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Feb 19, 2018 04:23
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People's biggest problem with Black Panther seems to be the same some had with Cabin in the Woods, "Well why didn't they tell us all how to do a perfect horror movie? huh?" Like it's up to Black Panther to solve all the worlds ills and being entertaining and thought provoking isn't enough.
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Feb 19, 2018 04:25
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how is t'challa a neoliberal?
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Feb 19, 2018 04:33
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temple posted:how is t'challa a neoliberal? Neoliberal = bad person who opposes revolutions (and nothing else) I guess, lol The real answer is that it's a bad take
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Feb 19, 2018 04:37
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Aurubin posted:Ritual combat seems a poor way to appoint the head of the executive. Yeah this to me was the silliest thing, but also probably was part of the point. You have this utopian kingdom where the leader is the guy who is the best in hand to hand combat "Well this dude who's never been here before and seems pretty pissed off and has some dangerous sounding ideas beat our current king in fisticuffs so I guess he's the king now and is going to immediately start crapping on all of our traditions, our hands are totally tied here" MariusLecter posted:People's biggest problem with Black Panther seems to be the same some had with Cabin in the Woods, "Well why didn't they tell us all how to do a perfect horror movie? huh?" I think the biggest problem with Cabin in the Woods was that it was a lovely Joss Whedon film that got way too much credit for being "meta" at a time before that was obnoxiously overdone.
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Feb 19, 2018 04:38
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Aurubin posted:Ritual combat seems a poor way to appoint the head of the executive.
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Feb 19, 2018 04:41
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Arist posted:Neoliberal = bad person who opposes revolutions (and nothing else) I guess, lol neoliberal = isolationist, protectionist, anti-immigration lol
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Feb 19, 2018 04:43
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Arist posted:Neoliberal = bad person who opposes revolutions (and nothing else) I guess, lol WRONG MOTHER FUCKER (although with the way it gets tossed around so casually in political conversations I get where you're coming from. T'Challa is a neo-liberal in the foreign policy sense of the word. The Wiki definition is, "In the study of international relations, neoliberalism refers to a school of thought which believes that states are, or at least should be, concerned first and foremost with absolute gains rather than relative gains to other states." Basically it's a counter-idea to realism in foreign policy which is a belief system primarily based on the idea that states are in constant conflict and competition with each other and that every state/nation's win is a loss for another. Neo-liberalism then is a belief system based on the idea of looking at absolute gains instead of relative gains, and that there can be mutually beneficial actions when states work together. The UN is the ür-neoliberal entity, as it's a giant meeting place for states to come together to create better policy for the world rather than be in conflict with each other, and try to work through potential conflicts without resorting to violence. (guess who's taking a foreign policy class this semester?) temple posted:neoliberal = isolationist, protectionist, anti-immigration lol literally the opposite. You're thinking of neorealism.
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Feb 19, 2018 04:44
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DC Murderverse posted:WRONG MOTHER FUCKER (although with the way it gets tossed around so casually in political conversations I get where you're coming from. Um, I know what neoliberalism is (and the reason your description is kind of incomplete is that it doesn't even mention the idea of global free markets), I was just being sarcastic.
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Feb 19, 2018 04:46
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im being sarcastic, that's why i put the lol at the end
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Feb 19, 2018 04:47
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god dammit guys i just learned about this like a week ago lemme have it
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Feb 19, 2018 04:48
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you froze
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Feb 19, 2018 04:50
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i wanna be real for a second here: Seeing Lupita Nyongo is an incredibly good reason to freeze. You can't blame T'Challa there.
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Feb 19, 2018 04:56
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Black Panther review: It was okay. CGI was real bad. Michael B. Jordan was real good. Action scenes were real bad. Wakandan politics and character drama real good. This is a movie made by Disney, let's not get too crazy about the message. T'challa had a cool personality, but didn't overshadow secondary characters in a way that reminds me of Batman movies. Go see it.
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Feb 19, 2018 05:07
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When Killmonger selects his first uprising cities, and one of them is Hong Kong, I'm curious how that's re-dubbed for the Chinese market. And it's a minor nitpick, but I'm not really clear on why Hong Kong is an initial target city. I mean I get that only a minority of Wakandan spies are supporting the global uprising plan, but how is smacking down Hong Kong a short-term win? Is this a really vague reference to Chinese neo-colonialism in Africa? Or is this just Killmonger going "what the gently caress, gently caress poo poo up"? TapTheForwardAssist fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 05:08
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:When Killmonger selects his first uprising cities, and one of them is Hong Kong, I'm curious how that's re-dubbed for the Chinese market. Hong Kong has an interesting history of colonialism and occupation, also seems like good strategic sense to have the area as history has shown.
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Feb 19, 2018 05:13
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:When Killmonger selects his first uprising cities, and one of them is Hong Kong, I'm curious how that's re-dubbed for the Chinese market. I actually think it's very good writing that he chose Hong Kong because it has a very painful and complicated relationship with a major colonial power...but isn't a 'black issue'. It showed he was a general anti-colonial revolutionary rather than 'just' a black liberationist. Also he's a military guy so he probably knew it'd be good to have a hold over in the Asian sphere of influence just in case China and Japan see 'anti-colonial revolution' and go 'aw beans better stomp that out before they start doing Asian ones...'
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Feb 19, 2018 05:32
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It's kind of funny how many plot beats this has in common with Thor Ragnarok. Long-lost royal family member returns after the death of the monarch, attempts to kill the presumed heir (and believes they've succeeded), takes the throne, declares "We should do some colonialism", the rightful heir returns after some tribulations and defeats the usurper. Of course, the structure and aesthetics are different, as are the political analogues. Neither Asgard or Wakanda is real, but Asgard represents real places. Asgard is pretty much any nation with a bloody colonial past that it stuffs under the rug in service of a "civilized" modern status quo. Hela is a hardcore white-power type angry at Odin's hypocritical efforts to soften, hide, and liberalize the colonial legacy she takes pride in. And the solution at the end of the film is not only to tell Hela to stuff it, but for the empire to atone by letting its shining city and blood-stained treasure hoards fall to ash. Kind of radical! Because Wakanda exists as an unrealized dream with no real-world analogue, I think this film's latent critiques of its policy are comparatively a bit hamstrung. What is the film's geopolitical call to action, and who is it directed at? If the dream-nation Wakanda is flawed in its isolationism, does that mean no one should dream of it? I don't quite know what to make of it. Also, unlike Hela (an easy, campy villain whose actions clearly benefit no one), Killmonger's got that thing going on where the villain has a righteous motive and righteous grievances, and so the film needs to portray him as obviously too murderous and destructive to tolerate. There's also a dash of the "sins of the father" narrative from Iron Man 2, with the same outcome (the protagonist has to double down on the father's sins by fighting the father's victim).
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Feb 19, 2018 05:35
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Supercar Gautier posted:Also, unlike Hela (an easy, campy villain whose actions clearly benefit no one), Killmonger's got that thing going on where the villain has a righteous motive and righteous grievances, and so the film needs to portray him as obviously too murderous and destructive to tolerate. There's also a dash of the "sins of the father" narrative from Iron Man 2, with the same outcome (the protagonist has to double down on the father's sins by fighting the father's victim).
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Feb 19, 2018 05:52
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Supercar Gautier posted:It's kind of funny how many plot beats this has in common with Thor Ragnarok. Long-lost royal family member returns after the death of the monarch, attempts to kill the presumed heir (and believes they've succeeded), takes the throne, declares "We should do some colonialism", the rightful heir returns after some tribulations and defeats the usurper. Are we doing Disney retreads plots? Ok. Who is Pumba and Timon in Thor Ragnarok and in Black Panther?
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Feb 19, 2018 05:57
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Well, Black Panther doesn't have them because he doesn't spend much time out of the picture! But for Thor it's Hulk and Valkyrie, of course. Really, this all mostly dates back to Hamlet. But like a version of Hamlet where I guess King Hamlet killed Claudius and/or Polonius? And now Laertes is somehow the bad guy?
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Feb 19, 2018 06:08
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Just saw this, really liked it, a few basic observations: -Coogler has a really good visual sense. Creed was this great modernized version of the Rocky aesthetic, and here, man, everything is so warm and lush. It's no surprise people are grooving on the Wakandan aesthetic. -Also he really likes his actors. It feels like nobody is wasted. -Letitia Wright is especially charming. - I like that the chief of the Jubari is basically King Vultan.
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Feb 19, 2018 06:09
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Black Panther works real good as a standalone but being part of a franchise is going to totally take the stuffing out of its conclusion Like, the 'teaching inner city kids to code' thing is just there for a callback to a thematically important area in the film's plot, and Oakland is just one of many places they're going to help, and the wry smile T'Challa gives the UN is clearly about to be followed up by "actually here's our incredibly advanced medical, transportational and other scientific advances we've made, that we're going to now share with the world because our previous leaders were idiots" but you're never going to see any of that because the MCU can't push too far beyond status quo without becoming unrecognisable to the casual viewer and/or reliant on watching the whole thing to 'get' it all.
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Feb 19, 2018 06:11
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America's favorite manchild racist weighs in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ype_rzvZGfI
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Feb 19, 2018 06:16
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That random U.N. rep in the mid-credits scene is the worst loving diplomat. Even if you thought Wakanda was a nation of dirt farmers, why would you openly poo poo on them during their coming out party like that?
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Feb 19, 2018 06:17
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PostNouveau posted:That random U.N. rep in the mid-credits scene is the worst loving diplomat. Even if you thought Wakanda was a nation of dirt farmers, why would you openly poo poo on them during their coming out party like that? Tbh I could easily see Nikki Haley say some poo poo like that
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Feb 19, 2018 06:21
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sexpig by night posted:I actually think it's very good writing that he chose Hong Kong because it has a very painful and complicated relationship with a major colonial power...but isn't a 'black issue'. It showed he was a general anti-colonial revolutionary rather than 'just' a black liberationist. Also he's a military guy so he probably knew it'd be good to have a hold over in the Asian sphere of influence just in case China and Japan see 'anti-colonial revolution' and go 'aw beans better stomp that out before they start doing Asian ones...' I disagree a lot that bringing Hong Kong into the fold is good writing. Yes, it was a British colony for a very long time, however it's now firmly a part of China again and China is very touchy about places like Hong Kong or Taiwan getting interfered with. Despite the technological advantage a revolution might have thanks to Wakandan weaponry, there's no way that the PLA wouldn't just descend on the city and completely overrun it. China absolutely would stomp it out at the first sign of trouble and wouldn't hesitate to make life hell for the native population just to ensure they maintain control of the territory. If Killmonger was as smart as we were supposed to believe he was in terms of destabilizing governments then he'd know Hong Kong is a complete nonstarter. He'd be better off going after Japan first since they have no military and comparable black populations. On a different note, I thought the movie was very good. Performances were great all around, though the supporting cast in general outshined Boseman, but that's not to say he did a bad job by any means. I thought the tech was really cool and I'm interested to see how it integrates with the rest of the MCU in future movies. Killmonger was a great villain with questionable methods for his ultimate goal so it wasn't surprising to see that they pushed the narrative that more civilized means were the way to introduce Wakanda to the world. One thing I did find interesting was how for the Wakandans, their identities weren't solely based on the color of their skin. They saw themselves as Wakandans more than anything else and ultimately they felt that their role was to reach out to the world as a whole. Killmonger, on the other hand, mainly saw himself as black and focused on using Wakanda as a means to get black people to rise up against everyone else. Not that I think it's bad thing for your skin color to play a role in how you form your identity, but the message that the heroes were selling seemed at odds with the general interpretation that this movie was a major cultural milestone for black people in general.
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Feb 19, 2018 06:30
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temple posted:democracy is a crap shoot at this point. but i guess people missed the whole council of tribes scenes all through out the movie Rome had a senate. Nodosaur posted:Ross is clearly acting in defiance of his superiors and is walking a thin line. This is based on nothing in the film. temple posted:people also ignore that killmonger was cia trained and using cia tactics. the film was more a critique of the cia than people are willing to admit. The film never criticises him for his methods, it criticises his goals. Again, there is a scene when the heroic CIA agent says 'this is what we always do' that passes by uncommented on. MariusLecter posted:People's biggest problem with Black Panther seems to be the same some had with Cabin in the Woods, "Well why didn't they tell us all how to do a perfect horror movie? huh?" Actually its more 'why didn't they engage with problems that they themselves wrote into their film?'
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Feb 19, 2018 06:58
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quote:This is based on nothing in the film. He outright says that he didn't blow the lid on T'Challa being the Black Panther in the South Korean casino.
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Feb 19, 2018 07:02
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Snowman_McK posted:The film never criticises him for his methods, it criticises his goals. Again, there is a scene when the heroic CIA agent says 'this is what we always do' that passes by uncommented on.
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Feb 19, 2018 07:13
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I like the use of percussion in this movie's soundtrack. Okay, bye.
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Feb 19, 2018 07:20
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temple posted:idk what would pass as criticism from the film for you. Someone saying 'jeeze, that's kind of messed up' or critically raising an eyebrow. While these are both obviously inadequate, they are more criticism than the film offers, being more than zero. The weird part is that it's a completely unnecessary line. It's perfectly clear why he burns them. You don't need to tie it back to uncriticised CIA modus operandi Nodosaur posted:He outright says that he didn't blow the lid on T'Challa being the Black Panther in the South Korean casino. That's 'I haven't reported yet' rather than 'acting in defiance.' Especially since we don't know his superiors feelings or policy towards Wakanda. Also, if the CIA managed to go through the entire Civil War incident without connecting the two (remember they were takin into custody at one point) well, then, gently caress... I mean, you're probably technically correct that that counts as going against his superiors, but that's really, really loving weak considering what it usually looks like in an action film when someone defies their superiors. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 07:21
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Bongo Bill posted:I like the use of percussion in this movie's soundtrack. Okay, bye. I’m sorry but you cannot go
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Feb 19, 2018 07:26
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T'Challa has been crowned king and T'Chaka already buried and Zemo incarcerated and Captain America's staged a jailbreak I mean read between the lines. If Ross hasn't reported it yet he's not going to.
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Feb 19, 2018 07:26
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Nodosaur posted:T'Challa has been crowned king and T'Chaka already buried and Zemo incarcerated and Captain America's staged a jailbreak Okay. A guy in the Black Panther outfit was seen in the chase and arrested. A few hours later, the very public figure of King T'Challa is freed, having encountered dozens of agents in that time (including confronting Bucky in a food court). And you think that Ross is somehow the only guy that knows who he is? I mean, I don't even remember it being a thing that Black Panther's identity is secret. I thought the thing he said he'd concealed was that he was operating in Korea.
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Feb 19, 2018 07:29
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